Dating and breaking a cycle of low-self-worth

[flaxcapacitor]

 

I think I'm probably not the only person here this might apply to, so I'm hoping that sharing my thoughts encourages people to share their own experiences.

Also I just want to add that I am currently in therapy and have been in therapy on and off for around 13 years; since often with these sorts of post the first thing people will ask is if I have considered therapy. I've not found it easy to be completely open though about my past and my issues, especially where relationships are involved since it obviously bothers me that I can't make them work among other things that my mental health affects such as career, self-care, general state of mind, health and friendships but if you say that people will think that you're just obsessed with sex and sad because you aren't getting any and try and talk you out of even wanting to be in a relationship. So I thought I'd talk about it here and then hopefully at least become better at talking about what exactly bothers me.

I have an assortment of hang-ups, emotional baggage and mental health issues which I'm fairly certain have played a significant role in my lack of dating success in my life so far. I'm 39 and other than a 15 month spell when I was 27 I have been single my entire life.

That 15 month relationship was possibly an abusive one, though I'm fairly wary of speaking openly about it. I have no solid evidence that I was pyschologically abused just a feeling that the signs and symptoms where there. I don't like the societal implications of making too much of a thing of it, like it's a bit of a cliche for men to blame their issues on thier 'psycho ex', and a lot of the time they were the ones at fault. My self-worth was very low however when that relationship ended, and I have other long-lasting issues, mainly I get very anxious when reminded of things from that period in my life and I also still find it hard to trust my own recollection of anything. If I say something happened and someone asks 'are you sure' I almost always try and back my way out of what I just said.

Having said that, I was 27 when that relationship started, and up to that point I had only kissed a girl twice, been on three or four dates and almost had a one-night-stand once, so it was more a case of my emotional baggage being exploited that it was that relationship being the cause of my issues. I ignored a lot of red flags going into it because I just couldn't believe that I'd met a woman who actually wanted to go out with me.

I've always had really low self-worth. I was teased a lot at school, told that I was ugly and weird and that girls would be grossed out by the idea of me fancying them. I never got over that, I took on board what other people told me I was and nothing ever happened since then to challenge those assumptions. I'll admit I am fairly physically unattractive, I have poor social skills and a speech impediment, I lack charisma and don't really have any talents or anything that might make me interesting. Despite that I think the main reason I am single and unless things change will always be single, is that I somehow sabotage my own chances.

I don't ask women out, I guess that's a key thing that will lead to remaining single. It's not so much rejection that I fear but because I see myself as this creepy guy I worry that people only accept me socially because I don't make any attempt to 'creep' on women. I worry that if I started approaching women I liked, if I started flirting etc, then I would make them feel unsafe and friends would start distancing themselves from me. Might not be true but the fear of it being true is pretty intense.

I guess also, I was teased a lot, going back to school, by having women act as if they were attracted to me... but in an attempt to embarrass me. For example touching me in inappropriate ways to try and give me an erection so that they could then laugh at me. That was all pretty traumatic and I think part of me still assumes that even if a woman acts towards me as if she were interested in me, then it's just for show... if not outright malicious then at least it would be hugely embarrasing if I were to assume that she were interested in me and probably also really awkward. You know that feeling you get when someone such as a server in a bar or cafe or a shop assistant is really sweet towards you, and in the back of your head you think 'this is nice' but also you know better than you actually assume they fancy you. Well I kind of get that with all interactions, not just those ones.

I try and think better of myself and get to a point where I actually expect that maybe there is someone out there who likes me but for some reason I find it really anxiety-making and fall back into just thinking of myself as worthless and expecting nothing. There's layers of self-worth, even if I can potentially think good of myself, I can't convince myself that I actually deserve to think so highly of myself, or perhaps I can't shake off the feeling that people only like me if I'm really humble.

Ack, sorry for going on a self-serving whiny rant. I'm trying to get to the point where I can address these things in a way that isn't so... passive aggressive and vain. The issues will exist regardless of whether people show sympathy or tell me to get over myself but I understand if the way I'm wording things at the moment just makes people think I do need to get over myself, and that's why I don't bring them up with therapists, or share them with friends, even close friends.

And also feel free to share your own experiences if you've gone through some of the same, just so this post isn't all about me.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by flaxcapacitor
needed more descriptive title

[Alpacalia]

People with low self-worth sometimes do the opposite and get into relationships just to get into relationships.

Rushing into relationships.

You don't sound like one of those individuals, just someone that has had a string of unfortunate events.

There was a member here that posted some really good advice with this sort of thing (sadly he doesn't post here anymore).

I understand not wanting to bog your friends or family down if it's something you do regularly.

That's why the forum and your therapist is a great environment to vent.

I will say though don't be afraid to turn to your friends and family from time-to-time because they can be a great source of support.

Just try to get out of your head a little bit more and do the best you can.

 

 

[mortensorchid]

You might as well ask what the meaning of life is, because I don't know that either.  If I knew I would tell you or anyone else who asks that of me, but I don't have it.

I have self esteem problems, no question.  There is a problem that has shown itself to me in many ways, shapes and forms, which is narcissim.  It's all about me and not about others, and it is ruining our world around us.  It's not you, it's them. 

[Weezy1973]

I’ll just say that while low self worth feels terrible, it’s really the self defense mechanisms that, as you describe, sabotage your chances at having a connection. And while it’s really, really hard to change your thoughts and by extension feelings, you can change your behaviors. Just keeping that at the front of your mind can help. 

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:02 PM, Alpacalia said:

People with low self-worth sometimes do the opposite and get into relationships just to get into relationships.

Rushing into relationships.

You don't sound like one of those individuals, just someone that has had a string of unfortunate events.

There was a member here that posted some really good advice with this sort of thing (sadly he doesn't post here anymore).

I understand not wanting to bog your friends or family down if it's something you do regularly.

That's why the forum and your therapist is a great environment to vent.

I will say though don't be afraid to turn to your friends and family from time-to-time because they can be a great source of support.

Just try to get out of your head a little bit more and do the best you can.

 

 

Thanks, yeah. I guess rushing into relationships was never really an option for me... apart from that one time. Because I don't stand out as a catch in any way (and also because I'm male*) I feel like I have to really really want to be in a relationship in order to stand any chance. I do feel lonely, but maybe I don't want it enough, I don't know. I am a bit protective over aspects of my independence, and my experience of being in a relationship was extremely traumatic so I knew as soon as I was single again that I would never again get into that situation.

Low self-worth and the belief that I'm not good enough to even ask women out plays a part but I do wonder how much of it is just that I got out of that relationship with new boundaries that would make it pretty much impossible for me to get into another, and just sort of forgot how to be anything else but single. I guess I probably also assume that the only reason any woman would be interested in me too is if she were a narcissist and needed a supply but that's a different thing. Self-esteem related I guess because there would be an underlying assumption that the only thing I have to offer is narcissistic supply and that will only attract narcissists.

*I think the differences between genders gets overstated, it's all just social anyway there is no 'flirty gene' on the Y chromosome but all else (looks, personality, lifestyle, circumstances etc) being equal, women are probably more likely to get approached by men than men are by women, and it's more likely to be for the wrong reason and women who have low self-worth are more likely to rush into relationships in that way. Some men get salty over this but I'm sure many women are jealous that if a straight guy doesn't want to be in a relationship nobody will ever question it or try to change his mind. I have many female and female-presenting friends who say after every bad relationship that they need to be single for a while, to learn to love themselves, to be happier etc, only for them to be in a relationship again within a month or two and still unhappy. This isn't a weakness on their part, it's just circumstance, so much of our self-worth is tied up in whether or not people are interested in us romantically and I know for absolute certain that if I only had to go out in order for women to come up to me and ask me out then I would also be rushing into relationships and ending up unhappy and trying to be single but not managing, after all the one occasion I was asked out I ignored all the red flags and got into a relationship that was just awful for my self-worth.

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:34 PM, Weezy1973 said:

I’ll just say that while low self worth feels terrible, it’s really the self defense mechanisms that, as you describe, sabotage your chances at having a connection. And while it’s really, really hard to change your thoughts and by extension feelings, you can change your behaviors. Just keeping that at the front of your mind can help. 

thanks. Yeah I do in part feel like there may be some self-sabotage (see above post) but then I feel instantly guilty because I feel like I'm saying that 'women are interested in me, it's me that pushes them away' which I guess just sounds in my head like a shocking level of arrogance and the sort of believe that almost deserves to see me taken down a peg or two.

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:32 PM, mortensorchid said:

You might as well ask what the meaning of life is, because I don't know that either.  If I knew I would tell you or anyone else who asks that of me, but I don't have it.

I have self esteem problems, no question.  There is a problem that has shown itself to me in many ways, shapes and forms, which is narcissim.  It's all about me and not about others, and it is ruining our world around us.  It's not you, it's them. 

Yeah I feel a bit like low self esteem and narcissism are two sides of the same coin, both are about yourself and both are based in insecurity.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

I feel like I'm saying that 'women are interested in me, it's me that pushes them away' which I guess just sounds in my head like a shocking level of arrogance and the sort of believe that almost deserves to see me taken down a peg or two.

The thing is almost no women will be interested in you without knowing you. The percentage of men that look good enough to pique a woman’s interest before knowing them is pretty small. Most of us men are average looking and below (if you believe statistically in bell curves). 
 

So self sabotage essentially is about not putting yourself in positions to have women get to know you. Without a doubt, even if they do get to know you, most women still won’t be interested - not because there’s something wrong with you - just because most people aren’t compatible. It just is what it is. But a few women will be interested. Essentially it’s a numbers game - the more women you meet and let get to know you, the better your chances of finding a match.

[glows]

Be around people who inspire you and do things that inspire you. Get out of your bubble and explore more, experience more and get comfortable with unknowns and unfamiliar situations. You may loosen up a bit and be more approachable or approach others in a more down to earth way and make more friends. You won’t treat potential dates on a pedestal either and the anxiety will fade away. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by glows

[Alpacalia]

6 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

Thanks, yeah. I guess rushing into relationships was never really an option for me... apart from that one time. Because I don't stand out as a catch in any way (and also because I'm male*) I feel like I have to really really want to be in a relationship in order to stand any chance. I do feel lonely, but maybe I don't want it enough, I don't know. I am a bit protective over aspects of my independence, and my experience of being in a relationship was extremely traumatic so I knew as soon as I was single again that I would never again get into that situation.

Well, that's good.

That's what it all comes down to, right?

A relationship is really going to be a success if you are committed to it (and if you want to be in one).

It's okay if we don't like ourself from time-to-time.

Heck, who does, like ALL THE TIME?

It is often the case that the biggest mistake we make about self-worth is thinking that it is nothing more than a thought. That if we just change our thoughts that we are not worthy, we’ll be better. No, I don't think that's accurate.

Starting with what won't help:
Positivity, pushing yourself harder, pretending you feel better than you do, ignoring your feelings, hoping they'll just go away.

To remove the roots of a low self-worth that have rooted deep into your being, you'll need to dig those roots out.

This requires courage and commitment on your part.

[smackie9]

Obviously the root to all your problems is your low self esteem. I have to ask, what things have you tried to boost your self worth? What recommendations were given by your therapist?

[flaxcapacitor]

14 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The thing is almost no women will be interested in you without knowing you. The percentage of men that look good enough to pique a woman’s interest before knowing them is pretty small. Most of us men are average looking and below (if you believe statistically in bell curves). 
 

So self sabotage essentially is about not putting yourself in positions to have women get to know you. Without a doubt, even if they do get to know you, most women still won’t be interested - not because there’s something wrong with you - just because most people aren’t compatible. It just is what it is. But a few women will be interested. Essentially it’s a numbers game - the more women you meet and let get to know you, the better your chances of finding a match.

I don't know about that last part though. I'd say that in terms of meeting and getting to know women... Well I don't struggle to get to know people, I'm fairly outgoing.

Edited September 11, 2022 by flaxcapacitor

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, glows said:

Be around people who inspire you and do things that inspire you. Get out of your bubble and explore more, experience more and get comfortable with unknowns and unfamiliar situations. You may loosen up a bit and be more approachable or approach others in a more down to earth way and make more friends. You won’t treat potential dates on a pedestal either and the anxiety will fade away. 

It has been a bit of a misunderstanding I think on two or three occasions I've posted about my issues dating, that I need to socialise more, make more friends, explore more etc. I guess from what I say about my lack of self-esteem and the fact that I haven't had a girlfriend in 12 years (or at this point even been on a date in a couple of years) people's assumptions might be that I'm a bit reclusive perhaps or that I go out but keep myself to myself. But in fact I'm fairly gregarious, have a wide circle of friends, approach people I don't know frequently and organise social events trying to bring people together and such.

I'll admit I could be a bit more open, I'm a little reserved in that way in that when I'm around other people I tend to make things all about them and say very little about my own feelings, which sometimes people notice. I have traumas and a lot of insecurity (which is pretty clear to anyone looking at this thread) but I mask well, to the point that I'm often surprised by how surprised my friends are on the occasions I do open up about something, or am having such a hard time that I can't mask any more), a lot of my friends have me down as this really happy guy who just has a handle on life and isn't struggling in any way.

Given how many people do have this impression of me as being open, friendly, honest, emotionally mature, non-judgemental and quick to complement people and display an interest in them and the things that are important to them... I might assume that I'd be seen as fairly attractive, even given me not being very physically attractive but no. For all that my personality draws people in who want to be friends it doesn't draw women in who might be interested in more than friends... and obviously elements of it (because this idea of me as being friendly and outgoing isn't like my entire personality, if people do try and get to know me better they will see my insecurities and how down I am on myself) are highly off-putting or I would at least have had one or two women be interested in me in the past decade. Or y'know sometimes I just think that maybe I am that spectalularly physically unattractive that nothing will make up for it (I have been told a lot that I am unattractive so it's a reasonable assumption).

Edited September 15, 2022 by flaxcapacitor

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:34 PM, smackie9 said:

Obviously the root to all your problems is your low self esteem. I have to ask, what things have you tried to boost your self worth? What recommendations were given by your therapist?

Mostly encouragement to do more positive self talk and exercises around this. I find it still very cringey and it causes me to feel anxious and guilty as though I'm about to get caught in a massive lie.

Like I felt quite anxious today after writing the post above where I try to present myself as quite outgoing and sociable even though its the impression most of my friends have of me.

[smackie9]

3 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

Mostly encouragement to do more positive self talk and exercises around this. I find it still very cringey and it causes me to feel anxious and guilty as though I'm about to get caught in a massive lie.

Like I felt quite anxious today after writing the post above where I try to present myself as quite outgoing and sociable even though its the impression most of my friends have of me.

You have a real medical condition, so simply talking in the mirror to yourself is not for someone like you. You need to go back at the therapist, let them know this doesn't work for you, in fact it does the opposite. Your low self worth is driven by anxiety. I know someone like yourself, she went through behavior therapy. A person takes you into situations or talks about the things that brings on this anxiety, and walks you through it, work through the emotions you are feeling. It teaches you how to "cope" and eventually dismiss some of these feelings that overtake you. you see you have heavily relied on these emotions all your life, your brain keeps responding the same way. With the right therapy, you "retrain" your brain to think differently. It's not going to completely go away but at least make things more tolerable. I have said this before with other like yourself, if the therapy you are receiving isn't working, which it isn't or you wouldn't be here looking for outside help, seek out a new therapist. Not every therapist is the same, or reliable. 

[Alpacalia]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:25 AM, flaxcapacitor said:

Mostly encouragement to do more positive self talk and exercises around this.

If I may interject and say that I do think that practicing gratitude is important especially if you are someone that experiences anxiety. It helps you honor the moment. Like, what do I think about this day in my life? Do I think it is nothing more than a routine day?

There's more to this day than just an ordinary day. It's the one day that is given, today. Right now, it is the only gift that I have and the only appropriate response to it is gratitude. If you only do one thing on this special day, cultivate an attitude that recognizes and responds to the gift that this day is, treat this day as it were the very first day of your life and as if it were your last.

Open your eyes. Marvel at the ability to open your eyes, and enjoy the feeling of surprise at that realization. We have an amazing array of colors available to us for pure enjoyment. Look up at the sky. So rarely do we just stop and observe the sky as it changes from one moment to another. Weather is all we think about. In our rush, we don't consider all of its nuances.

Get your eyes open.

Look at the faces of the people you meet.

Each one has an incredible story.

Just like you. 

[flaxcapacitor]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:19 PM, smackie9 said:

You have a real medical condition, so simply talking in the mirror to yourself is not for someone like you. You need to go back at the therapist, let them know this doesn't work for you, in fact it does the opposite. Your low self worth is driven by anxiety. I know someone like yourself, she went through behavior therapy. A person takes you into situations or talks about the things that brings on this anxiety, and walks you through it, work through the emotions you are feeling. It teaches you how to "cope" and eventually dismiss some of these feelings that overtake you. you see you have heavily relied on these emotions all your life, your brain keeps responding the same way. With the right therapy, you "retrain" your brain to think differently. It's not going to completely go away but at least make things more tolerable. I have said this before with other like yourself, if the therapy you are receiving isn't working, which it isn't or you wouldn't be here looking for outside help, seek out a new therapist. Not every therapist is the same, or reliable. 

It's not that easy to go through this process the way mental health care is provided where I live. They do have multiple practitioners and different types of treatment, but they are underfunded which limits how much choice patients actually have, and provide therapy in blocks of 8 45 minute sessions. I can't afford to go private so this is what I work with. If CBT isn't working then the process of assessing whether something else would work better and then arranging to provide you with that can take years.

Therapy has therefore been a sometimes positive, but often frustrating process. Each time I go then they are aware of what we did last time and where it might not have worked but it's just a little step in the right direction each time... then a wait of a year or more before a second little step can be taken.

[smackie9]

1 hour ago, flaxcapacitor said:

It's not that easy to go through this process the way mental health care is provided where I live. They do have multiple practitioners and different types of treatment, but they are underfunded which limits how much choice patients actually have, and provide therapy in blocks of 8 45 minute sessions. I can't afford to go private so this is what I work with. If CBT isn't working then the process of assessing whether something else would work better and then arranging to provide you with that can take years.

Therapy has therefore been a sometimes positive, but often frustrating process. Each time I go then they are aware of what we did last time and where it might not have worked but it's just a little step in the right direction each time... then a wait of a year or more before a second little step can be taken.

As they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  

[ZA Dater]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:40 PM, flaxcapacitor said:

 

I think I'm probably not the only person here this might apply to, so I'm hoping that sharing my thoughts encourages people to share their own experiences.

Also I just want to add that I am currently in therapy and have been in therapy on and off for around 13 years; since often with these sorts of post the first thing people will ask is if I have considered therapy. I've not found it easy to be completely open though about my past and my issues, especially where relationships are involved since it obviously bothers me that I can't make them work among other things that my mental health affects such as career, self-care, general state of mind, health and friendships but if you say that people will think that you're just obsessed with sex and sad because you aren't getting any and try and talk you out of even wanting to be in a relationship. So I thought I'd talk about it here and then hopefully at least become better at talking about what exactly bothers me.

I have an assortment of hang-ups, emotional baggage and mental health issues which I'm fairly certain have played a significant role in my lack of dating success in my life so far. I'm 39 and other than a 15 month spell when I was 27 I have been single my entire life.

That 15 month relationship was possibly an abusive one, though I'm fairly wary of speaking openly about it. I have no solid evidence that I was pyschologically abused just a feeling that the signs and symptoms where there. I don't like the societal implications of making too much of a thing of it, like it's a bit of a cliche for men to blame their issues on thier 'psycho ex', and a lot of the time they were the ones at fault. My self-worth was very low however when that relationship ended, and I have other long-lasting issues, mainly I get very anxious when reminded of things from that period in my life and I also still find it hard to trust my own recollection of anything. If I say something happened and someone asks 'are you sure' I almost always try and back my way out of what I just said.

Having said that, I was 27 when that relationship started, and up to that point I had only kissed a girl twice, been on three or four dates and almost had a one-night-stand once, so it was more a case of my emotional baggage being exploited that it was that relationship being the cause of my issues. I ignored a lot of red flags going into it because I just couldn't believe that I'd met a woman who actually wanted to go out with me.

I've always had really low self-worth. I was teased a lot at school, told that I was ugly and weird and that girls would be grossed out by the idea of me fancying them. I never got over that, I took on board what other people told me I was and nothing ever happened since then to challenge those assumptions. I'll admit I am fairly physically unattractive, I have poor social skills and a speech impediment, I lack charisma and don't really have any talents or anything that might make me interesting. Despite that I think the main reason I am single and unless things change will always be single, is that I somehow sabotage my own chances.

I don't ask women out, I guess that's a key thing that will lead to remaining single. It's not so much rejection that I fear but because I see myself as this creepy guy I worry that people only accept me socially because I don't make any attempt to 'creep' on women. I worry that if I started approaching women I liked, if I started flirting etc, then I would make them feel unsafe and friends would start distancing themselves from me. Might not be true but the fear of it being true is pretty intense.

I guess also, I was teased a lot, going back to school, by having women act as if they were attracted to me... but in an attempt to embarrass me. For example touching me in inappropriate ways to try and give me an erection so that they could then laugh at me. That was all pretty traumatic and I think part of me still assumes that even if a woman acts towards me as if she were interested in me, then it's just for show... if not outright malicious then at least it would be hugely embarrasing if I were to assume that she were interested in me and probably also really awkward. You know that feeling you get when someone such as a server in a bar or cafe or a shop assistant is really sweet towards you, and in the back of your head you think 'this is nice' but also you know better than you actually assume they fancy you. Well I kind of get that with all interactions, not just those ones.

I try and think better of myself and get to a point where I actually expect that maybe there is someone out there who likes me but for some reason I find it really anxiety-making and fall back into just thinking of myself as worthless and expecting nothing. There's layers of self-worth, even if I can potentially think good of myself, I can't convince myself that I actually deserve to think so highly of myself, or perhaps I can't shake off the feeling that people only like me if I'm really humble.

Ack, sorry for going on a self-serving whiny rant. I'm trying to get to the point where I can address these things in a way that isn't so... passive aggressive and vain. The issues will exist regardless of whether people show sympathy or tell me to get over myself but I understand if the way I'm wording things at the moment just makes people think I do need to get over myself, and that's why I don't bring them up with therapists, or share them with friends, even close friends.

And also feel free to share your own experiences if you've gone through some of the same, just so this post isn't all about me.

 

This post in some respects has my own circumstances written all over it to a degree. Ultimately its very hard but you need to determine your own worth and not let your worth be defined by others.

What made me feel better and still does is to spend time with super confident people because for a time that confidence rubs off on me and I feel really great and sometimes I can summon up some of my ow self confidence but its still fairly rare.

The problem how your let circumstances define you and we should not but we do, too often too. The other thing I found is I feel good around people who do date well and live the sort of dating life I wished I had. There is a feel good about that to some extent.

For me its always been about being wanted by someone who wants me who I want. I wont lie to you this is very hard to deal with as you probably know based on your post. 

I can tell you one thing which helped me a lot, I am a specialist at something, my knowledge on this topic far surpasses most and while this is not useful for dating, it has given me a great degree of comfort.