Is there such a thing as 'benign flirting'

[Will am I]

Looking for your opinions on a moral question.

 

Setting: maybe a year ago. I was out getting groceries, just me with our little one. Parked the car in a parking lot, got our son out of the car, walking in the direction of the supermarkt.

Saw a lady, mid thirties, coming in the opposite direction. She had two small children with her, who were absolutely giving her a hard time. Looked at her, saw the struggle in her face. Knowing that our son can have these moods too, I felt for her. Our eyes met. I smiled, wanting to pass the message that I still see her (no not I --> men still see her) as an attractive woman even underneath the not so glamorous picture of a tired mom struggling with two rebelious toddlers.  

Outcome: by the looks of it this made her feel better. There was a quick smile on her face before looking down shy. It was a really cute fragment, made me feel good too for a short while too.

Malicious intentions: I didn't have any. I wasn't going to meet her, talk to her, do anything to establish contact. Just passing by in the parking lot and on with life.

 

Projecting. If my wife had seen this, she would have been mildly cross. She wouldn't have liked it, would probably have given me a questioning look but I don;t think she would have really gotten upset with me. The whole thing was like two seconds, I'm pretty sure she would have let it go.

 

Curious about your opinions: would you consider this harmless and benign by your standards? Or no such thing?

 

[Weezy1973]

11 minutes ago, Will am I said:

If my wife had seen this, she would have been mildly cross.

 

Would you have done it if you had been with your wife? 

 

11 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Curious about your opinions: would you consider this harmless and benign by your standards? Or no such thing?

 

I believe the world isn’t black and white; there are shades of gray. That being said, I do believe in protecting one’s marriage - I think cheating, for example, can be a matter of opportunity rather than will power. Flirting opens the door of opportunity and, no matter our intentions, can lead to temptation. 
 

And just random - why would your desire be to make the woman feel attractive rather than a momentary connection on the sometimes difficult job of parenting?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Weezy1973

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

Would you have done it if you had been with your wife?

That's the key. If you're being friendly that's fine, but sharing longing glances if your wife is present is disrespectful. You like flirting. That's pretty clear. But it's all about respecting your spouse, isn't it?

[Alpacalia]

It seems so to me.

So, I'd say yes.

Sometimes a warm smile can be altruistic. 

That's what it sounds like here.

It's not like you were exchanging sexy YouTube videos with each other or anything.🤪

Edited September 13, 2022 by Alpacalia

[poppyfields]

OP, benign flirting?  Never heard that before. 

As was mentioned, if it's something you wouldn't do in he presence of your wife, you probably shouldn't be doing it.  

It's about intent.  Think about it.  

What was your true intent? It's important to be honest with yourself about that. 

The answer to that question will tell you everything you need to know. 

Just my take, but if your intent were simply to be friendly, or altruistic, this thread wouldn't exist. 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by poppyfields

[Will am I]

Thanks for all your perspectives.

I like this take: “what if your wife was there”. Would I have flirted with the woman? It happened in a short impulse, so maybe I would have. The first glance wasn’t intentional at all, the second one was but it was split second. So I’m not sure.

And my wife, I think she’d be slightly annoyed. She has a certain look in our couples’ language which means “I don’t like this but I’ll let you off the hook”. I think I would have gotten that look. Obviously these looks are nit in endless supply; for me to be careful and keep the situations to a minimum, but nothing too serious.

The reason why I opened the topic is because this seems to be right on the edge of acceptable behaviour. I’m calibrating my scale.

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

In your case,  it was not benign.   

I can't analyze you but there are complexities here that are problematic.  Your motive:  

wanting to pass the message that I still see her (no not I --> men still see her) as an attractive woman even underneath the not so glamorous picture of a tired mom struggling with two rebelious toddlers

Is not really clean.  

This is probably part of your personality - you seem to have active fantasy life.  In this case,  you played a role in this strangers' life in sort of a "romantic" way - in your own mind.

If you have a healthy, strong marriage, your wife knows that you have this propensity and probably rolls her eyes over it.  It's not inherently "bad," but it's also a little weird.  You are actually trying to influence a strange woman's opinion of herself.  Why?   

There is completely benign flirting.  Some people are just flirtatious.  It's part of their personality.  Also, for a lot of people, your scenario  would not even be labeled "flirting."  These people are capable of smiling, chatting, etc. with an attractive member of the opposite sex - absolutely noticing their attractiveness - and having it be a complete non-event in their day, aside from whatever momentary pleasure they experienced in the moment.

You, on the other hand, are still thinking about this smile and your motivation for it a whole year later.

It is your motivation and rumination over it that put it off in its own little category outside of "benign" but definitely not "bad."

 

[Johnjohnson2017]

10 hours ago, Will am I said:

Looking for your opinions on a moral question.

 

Setting: maybe a year ago. I was out getting groceries, just me with our little one. Parked the car in a parking lot, got our son out of the car, walking in the direction of the supermarkt.

Saw a lady, mid thirties, coming in the opposite direction. She had two small children with her, who were absolutely giving her a hard time. Looked at her, saw the struggle in her face. Knowing that our son can have these moods too, I felt for her. Our eyes met. I smiled, wanting to pass the message that I still see her (no not I --> men still see her) as an attractive woman even underneath the not so glamorous picture of a tired mom struggling with two rebelious toddlers.  

Outcome: by the looks of it this made her feel better. There was a quick smile on her face before looking down shy. It was a really cute fragment, made me feel good too for a short while too.

Malicious intentions: I didn't have any. I wasn't going to meet her, talk to her, do anything to establish contact. Just passing by in the parking lot and on with life.

 

Projecting. If my wife had seen this, she would have been mildly cross. She wouldn't have liked it, would probably have given me a questioning look but I don;t think she would have really gotten upset with me. The whole thing was like two seconds, I'm pretty sure she would have let it go.

 

Curious about your opinions: would you consider this harmless and benign by your standards? Or no such thing?

 

Was it benign? It depends.

If you are like 60 years old and you compliment a 30 some year old, that could be benign.

If she is not attarctive but you tell her she is attractive anyway just to make her feel good, then that's benign.

But if you really do find her attractive and she is within your age range, then your wife would get pissed off as she wouldn't see it as benign flirting.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

wanting to pass the message that I still see her (no not I --> men still see her) as an attractive woman even underneath the not so glamorous picture of a tired mom struggling with two rebelious toddlers

That type of compassion and empathy belongs to your wife who is also a struggling mother who hopes to be attractive to you.

[basil67]

12 hours ago, Will am I said:

Our eyes met. I smiled, wanting to pass the message that I still see her (no not I --> men still see her) as an attractive woman even underneath the not so glamorous picture of a tired mom struggling with two rebelious toddlers.  

Outcome: by the looks of it this made her feel better. There was a quick smile on her face before looking down shy. It was a really cute fragment, made me feel good too for a short while too.

I'm going to take a different approach....I think you read the room wrong. 

Going back to when I was a mum with a child who was having a moment (and my autistic child had many such moments), I was not wanting to be seen as an attractive woman...that would be the last thing on my mind.  I would want to be seen as a mum who's struggling and know that there is kindness and empathy rather than judgement of his behaviour and my parenting.  Therefore, if a man gave me a kindly glance, I would have interpreted it as kindness and empathy because that's what I needed at the time.  

Afterwards, I too would have smiled and looked down.  Smiled because I felt compassion, and then looked down to break the moment and move on.

So to answer your question, I think your motive was misguided and therefore, poorly timed - but she wouldn't have known your motive and so your actions would mostly likely have been interpreted by her as kindliness. 

[basil67]

Also on projecting: You've written about how you don't feel desired in your marriage, and that you are missing intimacy.  Could it be that in thinking that she would want to feel seen as an attractive woman, you were actually projecting your own feelings?  

[poppyfields]

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Could it be that in thinking that she would want to feel seen as an attractive woman, you were actually projecting your own feelings?  

Yes, seeking validation from her that you're an attractive man. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by poppyfields

[basil67]

9 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Yes, seeking validation from her that you're an attractive man. 

And yes, this is another valid suggestion..... but it's not what I was getting at.  I guess I wasn't clear.

What I mean is that because you feel undesired/unseen you are working on the theory that she also feels this way.   It could well be that she has a loving husband who makes her feel very loved, desired and seen as an attractive woman.   

[Lotsgoingon]

I don't see what you did as flirting. 

I smile at folks--and folks smile at me--every day of the week where I live. I live on a block that has tons of foot traffic and friendly people. I go out to the local cafe or for a walk and I'm passing people. Some people look closed and distant. Other seem open. I say hello only when I'm in a great mood and only when the person has their head up and looks open to a hello. 

I grew up in a culture where people said hello to strangers and smiled at strangers, including men and women (not at every stranger of course). I once greeted a guy on the street so warmly that my girlfriend at the time (not from my subculture) asked me if I knew the guy. 

I was in the grocery store a while back and was in a great mood (this determines whether I feel like smiling or not). And I said a quick hello and made eye contact with guys and women--and almost every one of them gave me a fantastic smile back and a "hello" as well. I didn't see this as flirting whatsoever. It was an enthusiastic greeting of a stranger on a day I was feeling great about life. Oh I don't just pick "pretty" women to smile at and greet. It's more the attitude and energy of the person. 

Now if I were with a partner, yes, I'd likely say hello to fewer women because most likely I'm focused on conversing with them. 

This all gets really subtle, but in my experience women can generally recognize a creepy or inappropriately flirtatious smile. My guess: that woman didn't think you wanted to ask her out on a date. She just thought you liked giving her a smile. 

Flirting has more energy to it than a warm happy smile, though yes, some flirting starts this way. 

 

[mark clemson]

Maybe it's just the example you chose, but I'm not sure in what universe merely smiling at someone else with no "substantive intent" or follow up to do more than just smile at them warrants this level of self-reflection.

Morals don't exist outside of people brains. They are, essentially, a strong opinion and little more than that. They can vary surprisingly widely. Consider the supposed immorality (depending on who you ask) of many things a western European might take for granted, such as drinking wine, wearing a skirt, being in public alone if female, eating meat (or even animal products generally for some folks), owning a gun or voluntarily participating in military service, being modestly wealthy while others go without, etc, etc.

From that perspective, no doubt if you interviewed everyone on earth, opinions about the "morality" of flirting, answers  would run the gamut from absolute no to absolute yes, with plenty of caveats, variations on specifics, etc, in between.

For myself, I flirt with women by essentially having unnecessary conversations with them. My interest in them "validates" their attractiveness, and their interest in me validates mine, but beyond that it's simply enjoyable. It might bother my wife if I did it to excess (which I typically don't), but generally I don't do it to too great an extent right in front of her, since I wouldn't want her to get upset. I would note that I don't make directly sexual comments.

Since I'm ONLY talking, there is no "betrayal" (in my view), and no one is hurt by this. In my view therefore, it gets a pass morally. That's "my way" not the only or "best" way. However, it can be frustrating to have others "judge" you for things like this when they are, put plainly, simply operating by a different set of rules - their morals, not mine. Much like it must be odd for western women to hear Taliban complaining about their skirts and bikinis. They can understand the "logic" behind the supposedly "more moral" rules, but the ones who wear those things simply don't agree.

Edited September 14, 2022 by mark clemson

[Will am I]

8 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

compassion and empathy belongs to your wife

This was something from last year. I'm going about more consciously and carefully now.

 

@ everyone who shared their insights. Much appreciated.