How to approach this

[chillii]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:48 AM, ZA Dater said:

Any advice how I can try feel better. I planned a great weekend for us with lots of her favourite things, can't cancel so have to go alone and I know whenever I see those things I'll think of her.

I'd love to just sit down and pour out my soul to her but not sure how much good that would do.

 

Op , if you think after a bit of time to digest that you absolutely genuinely do want "her" and your relationship, then why not , you've got nothing to lose. But talk to her to about exactly what she wants too.

[Weezy1973]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:48 AM, ZA Dater said:

Well the point being I have never had a relationship.

You have now. Whether you called it that or not is irrelevant; you were in a relationship with this woman. Moving forward, having no experience is no longer and excuse. You know you're attractive enough to date, as you dated this woman. You may think this was so rare as to seem like winning the lottery, but it's not.

 

On 10/16/2022 at 12:04 PM, ZA Dater said:

 I really do not want kids and I really do not want a relationship with kids, that takes about 85% of the dating pool away assuming I realise I cannot date a party animal 24 year old. What I end up left with are similar misfits like me and truthfully there is no allure there.
 

Agree that not wanting kids does limit your dating pool. Especially as, by your own admission, loyalty is your number one asset, and that's going to appeal to women that want marriage, family etc. Women who don't want those things are going to tend to be more superficial in what they're looking for. But a limited dating pool is fine. Once your past grieving the loss of this relationship, I suspect you'll start to want to date again. Right now it seems outlandish, but time really does heal. One thing I'll point out again, is how little you posted on here while you were in that relationship. You obviously were experiencing some contentment in your life, and I suspect you'll want that again once the dust settles.

[BaileyB]

14 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My huge mistake was to assume that going on dates we were in fact dating.

What did she think you were doing - platonic friends?

14 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The issue is that there was no meeting of parents

Did you talk about meeting each other’s parents? Did she introduce you to her parents? Did she say that it was a big deal - that she wanted to meet your family? I’m just trying to understand because a woman does not end a relationship with a man she likes because he doesn’t introduce her to his parents or call her his “official girlfriend.” Unless this was like the last and you had vastly different intentions - ie. you wanted to date and she was just enjoying your company - I’m struggling to understand why this relationship ended.

Similarly, you said before that you “slept” with the woman. Did you “sleep” with her in the way that the young folk do these days or did you actually have sex. I ask only because - if it’s been a few months and you are going on dates and having sex with a woman, you can pretty much assume that you are dating. Most will clarify at some point that there are no others in the picture, but there is no need for an official ceremony or anything like that to decree that you are officially dating.

Edited October 17, 2022 by BaileyB

[Foxhall]

29 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

because a woman does not end a relationship with a man she likes because he doesn’t introduce her to his parents or call her his “official girlfriend.”

Id venture that you may be wrong on that,

depends on the woman perhaps, 

but some women may feel more secure and feel that the relationship has a better chance once she is " good enough" to be introduced to his parents,

It reassures her that the guy is taking her seriously and especially important for women seeking a long term commitment.

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, Foxhall said:

Id venture that you may be wrong on that,

depends on the woman perhaps, 

but some women may feel more secure and feel that the relationship has a better chance once she is " good enough" to be introduced to his parents,

It reassures her that the guy is taking her seriously and especially important for women seeking a long term commitment.

I agree, but she would have given some warning. She would have been asking, she would have been wanting/introduced him to her parents, she would be expressing her desire to progress the relationship and take the next step. Doubtful that she wasn’t and then one day decided - for lack of an introduction, I’m going to end this right now. 

[chillii]

lf your in love with someone you don't abandon it all and walk away when it's only been 12mths or however long just about meeting parents that's ridiculous - You meet the parents.

No way known that's all there is to it !

Edited October 18, 2022 by chillii

[IrinaM]

@ZA Dateri'm confused--did the two of you ever have a talk where you "defined the relationship"? Did you tell her that you wanted to be in an exclusive committed relationship with her? Did you agree to be boyfriend/girlfriend?

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, IrinaM said:

@ZA Dateri'm confused--did the two of you ever have a talk where you "defined the relationship"? Did you tell her that you wanted to be in an exclusive committed relationship with her? Did you agree to be boyfriend/girlfriend?

To be honest I did not, incorrectly it turns out feel the need to have this conversation but I did tell her as far as I was concerned we were dating. Unfortunately it would seem there was also not enough "us" and this was another mistake I made.

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You have now. Whether you called it that or not is irrelevant; you were in a relationship with this woman. Moving forward, having no experience is no longer and excuse. You know you're attractive enough to date, as you dated this woman. You may think this was so rare as to seem like winning the lottery, but it's not.

 

Agree that not wanting kids does limit your dating pool. Especially as, by your own admission, loyalty is your number one asset, and that's going to appeal to women that want marriage, family etc. Women who don't want those things are going to tend to be more superficial in what they're looking for. But a limited dating pool is fine. Once your past grieving the loss of this relationship, I suspect you'll start to want to date again. Right now it seems outlandish, but time really does heal. One thing I'll point out again, is how little you posted on here while you were in that relationship. You obviously were experiencing some contentment in your life, and I suspect you'll want that again once the dust settles.

To be honest the absolute struggle I had with OLD makes me very disinclined to want to date again. One thing I know is each of us has a very powerful mind and we can convince ourselves we do not want something, much the same way I can walk past attractive people and really have little interest because I just know the extent of my ability to date them is reserved to walking past them. 

I'll have to find contentment other ways. 

I think a large part of why this whole thing fell apart was my lack of communication and also the fact I am not used to being with someone, I walked through life on my own and its very hard probably near impossible to adapt from that.

As for the bold, I agree with you completely on that. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, BaileyB said:

What did she think you were doing - platonic friends?

Did you talk about meeting each other’s parents? Did she introduce you to her parents? Did she say that it was a big deal - that she wanted to meet your family? I’m just trying to understand because a woman does not end a relationship with a man she likes because he doesn’t introduce her to his parents or call her his “official girlfriend.” Unless this was like the last and you had vastly different intentions - ie. you wanted to date and she was just enjoying your company - I’m struggling to understand why this relationship ended.

Similarly, you said before that you “slept” with the woman. Did you “sleep” with her in the way that the young folk do these days or did you actually have sex. I ask only because - if it’s been a few months and you are going on dates and having sex with a woman, you can pretty much assume that you are dating. Most will clarify at some point that there are no others in the picture, but there is no need for an official ceremony or anything like that to decree that you are officially dating.

We did not but apparently I should have suggested it. I never met her parents or any of her family. I think from my side my intention was not clearly communicated enough, she wanted more and thought I did not want the same thing. 

As I said in another post intimacy is not something I particularly enjoy which I guess is enough reason for anyone to run for the hills. I think this wall is particularly unhelpful but equally the entire way my life is structured is very unhelpful to try and be in a relationship, I knew this from the outset but decided to try anyway.

I'd like to keep trying but I also know I'd need to make monumental changes.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

We did not but apparently I should have suggested it. I never met her parents or any of her family. I think from my side my intention was not clearly communicated enough, she wanted more and thought I did not want the same thing. 

Have you asked her why she never communicated with you before she ended it? Why did she not invite you to meet her parents? Again, I don’t buy this… IF this is what the whole relationship hinged on, she would have said something. She should have said something because SHE is in this relationship too.

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

As I said in another post intimacy is not something I particularly enjoy

You didn’t answer my very direct question about sex. Is there more to this than just meeting the parents?

And, if I may, I would say that intimacy is not something that comes easily for you - you find it difficult to let your guard down and you find it difficult to progress a relationship. But, it seems to me with your discussions re: this and the other women you’ve spent time with - you do actually crave being close with a woman. Your previous posts with the last woman you went away with (who had a child), you seemed to enjoy every bit of time that you could get with her and you shared a lot of very intimate time together. 

[ZA Dater]

21 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Have you asked her why she never communicated with you before she ended it? Why did she not invite you to meet her parents? Again, I don’t buy this… IF this is what the whole relationship hinged on, she would have said something. She should have said something because SHE is in this relationship too.

You didn’t answer my very direct question about sex. Is there more to this than just meeting the parents?

And, if I may, I would say that intimacy is not something that comes easily for you - you find it difficult to let your guard down and you find it difficult to progress a relationship. But, it seems to me with your discussions re: this and the other women you’ve spent time with - you do actually crave being close with a woman. Your previous posts with the last woman you went away with (who had a child), you seemed to enjoy every bit of time that you could get with her and you shared a lot of very intimate time together. 

Not a very easy post to answer! I could never had made anything with with A because it more like one of those movies where the unlikely guy lands up with the very unlikely lady but I guess there was a certain allure to enjoy the sheer superficial side of it while I could. She brought a very warm perspective to me life when I really needed it.

Maybe I do just enjoy the warmth of people.

[poppyfields]

ZA, women have been advised time and time again to focus on and follow a man's actions.  To allow him to lead the relationship.

Not sure I buy that all the way but many women do.

For me, there's a balance with both parties making effort to escalate and progress the relationship (define the relationship, meeting parents, become exclusive etc).  

However she may be a woman who has been taught to follow a man's lead and prefers him to escalate and progress the relationship.

Women have also been taught that when a man is interested in escalating the relationship, HE will do just that. 

Which may have been why she never brought these issues up.  She was waiting for you to show her you cared, with actions and words, to escalate and progress the relationship.

You mention the word "apparently" quite a bit - apparently there wasn't enough "us," apparently she wanted  us to meet parents, apparently she wanted more. 

Where does this "apparently" come from?  Your own thoughts?

OR rather, did she bring these issues up during the relationship?

If not, this is where many women go wrong imo and not judging cause I've done same in past relationships.

We expect men to read our minds, to automatically know what we want without us having to say a damn thing. 

Then when they (women) get fed up from the lack of "anything happening" (i.e escalation/progression) they hit him with it, all the things they wanted but he never gave to them.

If this is what happened, it's not fair to you (or any man) and if/when you speak with her again, my suggestion is to tell her.

No one is a mind reader, we need to communicate with both words and actions, and that goes for both men and women.

So if this is what happened, please don't beat yourself up too much, it takes two. 

And if she felt dissatisfied and she wanted things to progress, she should have communicated that to you.

You are not a mind reader and should not be expected to be.

it takes two.

Edited October 18, 2022 by poppyfields

[IrinaM]

@ZA Datera year is way too long to go without having a conversation about exclusivity and meeting each other's families. I understand these things are uncomfortable for you, but it would be worth it to push past that discomfort to gain the benefits of a stable, long-lasting relationship. I'm sorry you're so hurt by this loss.

imo, your life sounds pretty lonely. if you think this woman would give you a second chance, I think it's worth it to put forth the effort to get her back in your life.

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Have you asked her why she never communicated with you before she ended it? Why did she not invite you to meet her parents?

From my personal experience with the OP here on these forums, I think I can understand how this could happen.   If he were completely not forthcoming or participating in their "relationship" in any real connectable way,  this question about meeting parents is probably one of several examples the woman is giving him of why this is not actually a viable "relationship" of any kind.

Over the course of it OP has been asked many times if they are actually "dating" or is it something else.  I'm still not clear whether there had been any type of physical contact.

The woman evidently did not know whether they were actually dating or not.  Not sure what OP thought as he doesn't give succinct answers.

Probably they were hanging out and there was something in the air, or whatever, that gave her an inkling that there might be something coming.  Like he might make a move, a romantic gesture of some kind, invite her to his parents, etc.  Those would all be examples of "escalation" which let people who are spending time together know one another's intentions.  People know that they are dating before the "let's make it official" talk ever happens.  Not in this case, probably.

This whole time, the OP has made it clear here that he is "not that into" this person.  She is not HOT and not a "10" etc.  My impression has been that kind of hanging around with her peripherally was a little like a relationship.   Even at that minimal level the OP was not committed to being IN it.   

Seems that they were companionable and she probably hoped, but nothing was really moving in the formal relationship direction so she just decided to face the probability that it was not going to happen and call it quits.

Most of us assume that other people we are with are reading cues, responding in certain ways that we have learned over our lives when we are interacting with others.  I bet that her experience with the OP was lacking any reciprocity in those areas, but she kept on hanging in there.

 

[BaileyB]

7 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

The woman evidently did not know whether they were actually dating or not.  Not sure what OP thought as he doesn't give succinct answers.

No, if her experience is like our experience, I can appreciate that there was a lack of clarity about ZA’s intentions. A direct question received a vague and indirect response that veers off into a discussion about what he think about life, his limited experience with dating, his fear of intimacy, the poor dating pool, etc…

I’m also saying, she had some responsibility in communicating her intentions/expectations. But, for all we know, she did that or attempted to do that… that’s what I’m trying to learn and it’s difficult to get a sense of what happened. 

10 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Seems that they were companionable and she probably hoped, but nothing was really moving in the formal relationship direction so she just decided to face the probability that it was not going to happen and call it quits.

I bet that her experience with the OP was lacking any reciprocity in those areas, but she kept on hanging in there.

Also my assumption, there was a lack of escalation, intimacy, and other very typical things that one would expect when dating another - as per the example, he hadn’t introduced her to his parents. And while that may be the reason she provided (or one concrete example), I am doubtful that this is the “whole” story…  

[basil67]

12 hours ago, BaileyB said:

No, if her experience is like our experience, I can appreciate that there was a lack of clarity about ZA’s intentions. A direct question received a vague and indirect response that veers off into a discussion about what he think about life, his limited experience with dating, his fear of intimacy, the poor dating pool, etc…

@ZA Dater this was my exact experience in wanting to help you.  I really feel for you in this situation, and I also really want to find where you've done things right so that you can realise it's not all your fault.   But when I ask a question, it's so difficult to get a straight answer from you.  Hence me incorrectly understanding that the two of you hadn't had sex.  And now that I know you loved laying in her arms, I'm not sure what you're referring to by being uncomfortable with intimacy.  Perhaps you mean emotional intimacy?  

I'm still hoping you'll tell us if she'd alerted you to the fact she wasn't getting her needs met before it got to the point of breaking up.  It would be so helpful to work through what she said.

I'm not wanting to pile on or make you feel bad.  I think you're a good guy...but I do wonder if she also had trouble getting straight answers from you.  I'm not saying that it was definitely the case, because I don't know.  I'm just going off the way you interact with us here.

One last thing - you say that you aren't suited to relationships because this one ended.  May I point out that for everyone (except those who married and spent their lives with their very first bf/gf) we've all had relationships which ended.  Many of us more than a couple have ended.   I bet that in your working life you've also made mistakes....I doubt there's a person alive who hasn't made a mistake at work.  And with work, as with relationships, t's not a fail, it's a learning experience. 

Anyway, I look forward to any update you have after you've spoken with her again

Edited October 19, 2022 by basil67

[Classicfiction]

@ZA Dater, dude look... I am 42 years old and just now realizing the empowerment of letting go.  When something ain't right it will drain you and when you let go of that, you reel that energy back in and open yourself up to new possibilities.  I can sense the fear in you of letting go of this relationship because you are afraid this is your last chance.

There's no such thing as a last chance.  I had a downstairs neighbor in his 80's who met the actual love of his life in his 70's.  It just takes some people longer to get centered and be authentic enough to attract the right person.

 A year ago, I probably would have balked at the fact that you don't want to date single mothers... but you know what, you have every right to want what you want dude.  Just don't waffle about it and stick to what you know is right for you.

I personally have decided that I don't want to date any men under the age of 50.  For a long time, even though I was feeling this, I would waffle and still talk to guys who were 47,48,49 on OLD.  And guess what?  That s*** was draining me because I wasn't being true to myself.

As soon as I made a firm decision to stick to my personal boundary, I did feel a return of my energy as well as a feeling of relief and centering.  But also, my choices and what's right for me isn't necessarily what's right for others... and same for you.

Stop looking at the examples around you and get to know yourself.  So far, you know that you don't want to date single mothers or women who want children.  Stick to it and don't continue relationships in which the woman wants children in the future. 

Also, when you sense an energy drain while talking to certain people or being around certain people, go with your gut and move on.

The more you get used to letting go, the stronger you become in knowing your authentic self.  If you walk away from this women who is not on the same energetic wavelength as you, you are not blowing your one precious chance at love.  You are honoring yourself and your personal energy as well as hers.  That then makes your vibration stronger to attract people who are on that wavelength.

The more you hone in on who you really are and what you actually want, the less power fear has over you. You become more you so that your authentic self will be showing and noticable to those who share your beliefs.  It is absolutely draining to look outward at others' relationships and compare yourself.

[poppyfields]

My experience with "emotionally unavailable" people such as our dear OP (as he has admitted) is that they're uncomfortable being asked direct questions that require a response related to feelings, emotions and the like.

If you read back, the times ZA has opened up were not in response to direct questions but on his own, I suspect when he felt comfortable doing so, not in response to questions.

My take is ZA gives what he's capable and desirous of giving at any particular point in time. Including here on this forum and I suspect in his relationship with his now-ex as well. 

ZA, it's all a journey man.  This is your first venture into the relationship arena, best to learn from it.  About yourself mostly, what motivates you and your limitations.

And also about others, and well, just life in general. 

In time, it will all start to make sense.  My advice for now is to try and not overthink, analyze, dissect, you will drive yourself crazy. 

Lay back, take it all in.  As an intellectual person, there are some great books written by reputable authors if you're not inclined to seek formal structured therapy. 

I myself have learned a ton from reading.  That and experience, experience is actually the best teacher imo, don't be afraid of failure, that's how we learn, through mistakes and learning from them. 

Personally I think you have a lot to offer the right woman. Not sure if your now-ex was that woman, it's doubtful. For both of you. 

You became attached to her which was to be expected, it will take time to detach and heal, be patient with yourself. 

Continue introspecting, learning, growing, evolving.

All the best mate. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by poppyfields

[ZA Dater]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:32 AM, basil67 said:

@ZA Dater this was my exact experience in wanting to help you.  I really feel for you in this situation, and I also really want to find where you've done things right so that you can realise it's not all your fault.   But when I ask a question, it's so difficult to get a straight answer from you.  Hence me incorrectly understanding that the two of you hadn't had sex.  And now that I know you loved laying in her arms, I'm not sure what you're referring to by being uncomfortable with intimacy.  Perhaps you mean emotional intimacy?  

I'm still hoping you'll tell us if she'd alerted you to the fact she wasn't getting her needs met before it got to the point of breaking up.  It would be so helpful to work through what she said.

I'm not wanting to pile on or make you feel bad.  I think you're a good guy...but I do wonder if she also had trouble getting straight answers from you.  I'm not saying that it was definitely the case, because I don't know.  I'm just going off the way you interact with us here.

One last thing - you say that you aren't suited to relationships because this one ended.  May I point out that for everyone (except those who married and spent their lives with their very first bf/gf) we've all had relationships which ended.  Many of us more than a couple have ended.   I bet that in your working life you've also made mistakes....I doubt there's a person alive who hasn't made a mistake at work.  And with work, as with relationships, t's not a fail, it's a learning experience. 

Anyway, I look forward to any update you have after you've spoken with her again

There was no real warning from here, there was a brief discussion a few months ago where she mentioned we need to define what this is, my comment was we were dating. My mistake was not expanding this conversation. No doubt she did battle to get straight answers from me, this much is very true! 

I had lunch with her a few days ago and we are still communicating and I put my feelings on the table and at the moment its just a case of seeing what we can rebuild. Inherently the problem here is me.

Unfortunately she only wants to be friends going forward.

 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

@ZA Dater, dude look... I am 42 years old and just now realizing the empowerment of letting go.  When something ain't right it will drain you and when you let go of that, you reel that energy back in and open yourself up to new possibilities.  I can sense the fear in you of letting go of this relationship because you are afraid this is your last chance.

There's no such thing as a last chance.  I had a downstairs neighbor in his 80's who met the actual love of his life in his 70's.  It just takes some people longer to get centered and be authentic enough to attract the right person.

 A year ago, I probably would have balked at the fact that you don't want to date single mothers... but you know what, you have every right to want what you want dude.  Just don't waffle about it and stick to what you know is right for you.

I personally have decided that I don't want to date any men under the age of 50.  For a long time, even though I was feeling this, I would waffle and still talk to guys who were 47,48,49 on OLD.  And guess what?  That s*** was draining me because I wasn't being true to myself.

As soon as I made a firm decision to stick to my personal boundary, I did feel a return of my energy as well as a feeling of relief and centering.  But also, my choices and what's right for me isn't necessarily what's right for others... and same for you.

Stop looking at the examples around you and get to know yourself.  So far, you know that you don't want to date single mothers or women who want children.  Stick to it and don't continue relationships in which the woman wants children in the future. 

Also, when you sense an energy drain while talking to certain people or being around certain people, go with your gut and move on.

The more you get used to letting go, the stronger you become in knowing your authentic self.  If you walk away from this women who is not on the same energetic wavelength as you, you are not blowing your one precious chance at love.  You are honoring yourself and your personal energy as well as hers.  That then makes your vibration stronger to attract people who are on that wavelength.

The more you hone in on who you really are and what you actually want, the less power fear has over you. You become more you so that your authentic self will be showing and noticable to those who share your beliefs.  It is absolutely draining to look outward at others' relationships and compare yourself.

I appreciate this but I cant fool myself with time one becomes more unattractive rather than attractive, the degree of compromise has to become more and unfortunately I am not prepared to bend over backwards. I messed up something great due to my own stupidity. Its a wonder she ever found me attractive and viable to date in the first place. Even more heart breaking for me is in her I actually had probably my ideal person but its taken this for me to realize that. I just angry at myself beyond what is possible to actually type.

As as person I am deeply flawed, there is dozens of reasons not to date me, there are in fact very few reasons to date me. For years all I did was simply struggle along trying and trying to find some of the happiness everyone else seemed to find, when I found it....I did not know what to do.

Put simply I cannot go back to that struggle.

[ZA Dater]

On 10/18/2022 at 6:38 PM, IrinaM said:

@ZA Datera year is way too long to go without having a conversation about exclusivity and meeting each other's families. I understand these things are uncomfortable for you, but it would be worth it to push past that discomfort to gain the benefits of a stable, long-lasting relationship. I'm sorry you're so hurt by this loss.

imo, your life sounds pretty lonely. if you think this woman would give you a second chance, I think it's worth it to put forth the effort to get her back in your life.

Oh well ultimately it all my fault. Someone who had some relationship experience would not have made such a stupid mistake.

My life is very lonely, trying to date has been a big struggle.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

There was no real warning from here, there was a brief discussion a few months ago where she mentioned we need to define what this is, my comment was we were dating. My mistake was not expanding this conversation. No doubt she did battle to get straight answers from me, this much is very true! 

I had lunch with her a few days ago and we are still communicating and I put my feelings on the table and at the moment its just a case of seeing what we can rebuild. Inherently the problem here is me.

Unfortunately she only wants to be friends going forward.

 

You are both at fault for not expanding the conversation.  It's not just on you.

If she had said "we seem to have a good thing happening, where do you see this going?" What would you have said?

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Oh well ultimately it all my fault. Someone who had some relationship experience would not have made such a stupid mistake.

My life is very lonely, trying to date has been a big struggle.

Did she ask for exclusivity or to meet your family?   If not, its not all your fault.   Besides, given your lack of experience, I think it should have been clear that there was no one else for you

I've been with my partner for 30 years and we've never had the exclusive discussion - it was always a given.  This conversation isn't necessary if the person you are with is an open book about their life, and easily tells you what their week has involved.

Edited October 20, 2022 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You are both at fault for not expanding the conversation.  It's not just on you.

If she had said "we seem to have a good thing happening, where do you see this going?" What would you have said?

I would have wanted to discuss it and yes I would have wanted to integrate myself more, meet family.

Unfortunately I just get to pay the price for inexperience and poor decision making.