is it me, or.

[confused_]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 

Thanks for taking all this time to read and tell me your take. I understand that I cannot make someone not to lie again, but I think that if I do my best to become better as a person and treat her with confidence, trust and spend some more time on us two, at the end of the day even if something goes bad, I'd know that I've done my best.

[glows]

31 minutes ago, confused_ said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's not that I ever gave her a hard time, questioned her in a bad way, or went crazy with a reaction or jealousy. I am sometimes making small comments that are supposed jokes but there is a hint of suspicion behind. The real reason I believe she hid something so small from me, is that I know the background of her particular friends who have cheated before and one of them brought the drugs. So I reckon she didn't want to tell me because she'd know it would validate them as even more unreliable people and I would use it in a future argument or something. And while I don't want to interfere with her relationships with friends, especially long friendships, I have to say that they are kind of a bad influence in the long term. But I will focus on making her feel comfortable and trusted rather than pointing out why her friends suck.

I think the time for jokes or remarks about her friends is over. Time to really rethink this and figure out whether you can’t accept your wife’s friends. She’s entitled to having her choice of friends. You are entitled to choosing a partner whose lifestyle matches yours. Tearing each other apart with snide/distrustful remarks or drug use/potential drug use are recipes for disaster in a marriage. Don’t continue if you can’t accept each other.

Edited October 14, 2022 by glows

[poppyfields]

OP, a better approach imo would be to create stronger boundaries and calmly (but assertively) let her know what they are, and if she crosses them, you're gone.

She needs to feel afraid of you a little bit, afraid she may lose you.

Not through aggressive heavy-handed demands but a silent strength that you display by calmly stating your boundaries and distancing yourself when she behaves in a way not congruent with your standards of how YOU believe your wife should behave.

I don't think you should be making her more comfortable, that is the wrong approach.  She may even lose respect for you.

Regardless of whether or not she cheated, which I still think is a possibility, her behavior was unacceptable. 

The lies, the drugs, the staying out till 5:00 am, etc, I wouldn't dare behave that way, my husband would never tolerate it.

It might even cause him to rethink why he married me!  And consider leaving.

I know this about him, again not through aggressive heavy handed tactics but a silent strength he has displayed ever since I met him.

I just know and I have too much love and respect for him to risk it.  Not that I would anyway, it's not my style but if I were ever tempted to behave in such a way (especially lying to him), I would think twice knowing how my husband would react to it.

This is a the message you should be sending your wife, not pandering or subordinating yourself to her.

Forgive my bluntness, but it's weak and again you risk her losing respect.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by poppyfields

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

She needs to feel afraid of you a little bit

 No.  If a marriage requires that one partner fears the other one, it's better off dead.

Quote

Not that I would anyway, it's not my style but if I were ever tempted to behave in such a way (especially lying to him), I would think twice knowing how my husband would react to it.

I'm sorry.  Hopefully the OP won't go this route.  If his wife is cheating and the only way he can get her to stop is to instill fear, I honestly think he needs to move on.  

Edited October 15, 2022 by NuevoYorko

[Wiseman2]

On 10/12/2022 at 9:17 PM, confused_ said:

  she passed out almost immediately after coming back. 

Unfortunately it seems like she is trying to make up for lost time and relive a wild youth. 

It's concerning that she's out doing drugs in bars and hotels. Is it possible she's having an affair? Maybe.

No amount of spyware is going to resolve this. 

She's acting like a rebellious teen and perhaps it's time to reflect why.Is this a new thing since going back to work?

It's more disconcerting that the police will be at your door with bad news,  than if she's cheating at this point. It's unclear how going out drugging and drinking all night is an ok thing to do.

Any type of spyware on her car or devices is sidestepping the major issues in that she's coming home almost passed out. Focus on the drinking and drugs, not the amateur private investigator stuff trying to figure out cheating..

 

[poppyfields]

8 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

 No.  If a marriage requires that one partner fears the other one, it's better off dead.

I'm sorry.  Hopefully the OP won't go this route.  If his wife is cheating and the only way he can get her to stop is to instill fear, I honestly think he needs to move on.  

Appreciate your opinion and contribution but you misunderstood the entire message of my post, making it sound like I'm in some sort of abusive situation. 

I'm not.  Far from it.

It was about creating strong boundaries and being respected and understanding if you cross over and disrespect those boundaries and thus your partner you risk losing them. 

It goes both ways. 

If you don't understand that, and not what you require in your relationships, so be.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by poppyfields

[confused_]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

 

I'm not a big fan of boundaries, simply because I think, or at least thought that between two grown adults who know and love eachother, some things are to be taken for granted. Don't stalk but trust, don't lie but be transparent. I guess some things should be reconsidered throughout a marriage. After our talk I feel better and we have began trying to bridge a gap that has been formed. My worry is that everyday life, obligations, raising children and her long time of being a sit-at-home mom has cracked things inside her and it will never be the same again. Hence her need to to be a bit irresponsibly carefree and say little lies to protect this desire. But that's a different story.

Edited October 15, 2022 by confused_

[poppyfields]

49 minutes ago, confused_ said:

I'm not a big fan of boundaries, simply because I think, or at least thought that between two grown adults who know and love eachother, some things are to be taken for granted. 

Not sure what you mean by above quoted.   Can you clarify? 

Do you mean actually not have any boundaries?

Or do you mean not voicing your boundaries?   As in your respective boundaries are silent, taken for granted if you will.

The latter I understand and is precisely what I meant in my earlier post. 

IMO, in any LTR or marriage, boundaries are often a given and a byproduct of mutual respect.  After awhile, they become silent. 

For example, in my marriage, there are certain behaviors I would never engage in.

Lying to my husband being one, partying all night doing drugs being another. 

Why?

Respect.  And knowing him as I do, his values, his beliefs, and the trust he has in me to behave responsibly and respectfully.

And if I breached those boundaries and trust, understanding there would be consequences such as him possibly leaving.

That was the fear I mentioned earlier.

Perhaps fear was the wrong choice of word, but in a way it's true and not always a negative thing. 

If on the other hand, if you truly believe there should be no boundaries, you risk being disrespected and devalued. 

It took me a long time to learn proper boundaries, but eventually I did, with therapy as well as making mistskes and learning from them. 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by poppyfields

[Alpacalia]

Which bothers you more?

The incident at the hotel or her time out with friends?

How were you spending time together before this? Does she seem uninterested in spending time with you or is she more interested in having fun with her friends?

I think you’ll both be happier if you let her go out with friends — within reason, of course. (Wife's absence all the time won't make you happy.) So, how often are we talking about? Is it a reasonable amount? If so, I think you’re OK.

Yet. The incident at the hotel and the alleged use of drugs. While she would benefit from reuniting with friends, her behavior and response are questionable. Her argument is that she cannot or did not mention recreational drug use because you would be intrusive. Well, of course you would be. I mean, who wouldn't?

Having been married for some time, you either know when an answer isn't right, or your spouse is good at covering her tracks. If there’s an awkward exchange that takes place with your wife when cheating comes up, it could be the equivalent of a tell. A wife who has checked out of a marriage for good will react differently than one who still loves you and values your relationship.

Find out what's going on in her life. I'm guessing you haven't done that in a while. Whether your wife is cheating or not, if you can't ask a simple question, your relationship is already over.

[Wiseman2]

38 minutes ago, confused_ said:

My worry is that everyday life, obligations, raising children and her long time of being a sit-at-home mom has cracked things inside her and it will never be the same again. Hence her need to to be a bit irresponsibly carefree and say little lies to protect this desire. 

It's fine to want to break loose after years as a SAHM, however there are less destructive ways to do this. Groups, clubs, classes, course,. volunteering, lunch/dinner with friends/family, new hobbies, sports, etc. Try to get sitters an do stuff on weekends and some evenings.

It's time to reignite your marriage in more productive ways. Drugs, drinking and clubbing recklessly is not a good road to go down. Discussing this is not asserting 'boundaries' or putting a leach on her. It's fine to address concerns as a couple and as a family.. Yes the stalking is no good. Nor are spyware or tracking devices. Unlike her leaving google tracker voluntarily on her phone, these methods are illegal in many jurisdictions, yes even between spouses..

Talk, do fun things together that will help you two get out of the mom and dad rut.

[confused_]

18 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Not sure what you mean by above quoted.   Can you clarify? 

Do you mean actually not have any boundaries?

Or do you mean not voicing your boundaries?   As in your respective boundaries are silent, taken for granted if you will.

I meant to say that there are some values beyond verbal agreement. They are taken for granted from both of us. Lying, for example, shouldn't be even discussed as a red line. What you wrote about respect is important. I think our lifestyle and choices have made an impact to the respect we feel about each other and we need to address this.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, confused_ said:

I'm not a big fan of boundaries

A healthy relationship has boundaries. It’s just a question of where you set those boundaries.

37 minutes ago, confused_ said:

They are taken for granted from both of us. Lying, for example, shouldn't be even discussed as a red line.

That’s a boundary, that apparently you both didn’t take for granted because you caught her in a lie. You clarified, and now you have a boundary that you both acknowledge. 

1 hour ago, confused_ said:

My worry is that everyday life, obligations, raising children and her long time of being a sit-at-home mom has cracked things inside her and it will never be the same again.

And yet, women (and men) do this everyday and they don’t all stay out until the early hours drinking and doing drugs with friends. I will say it again, NONE of my married friends do this. Sure, they may go out with friends or have a girls weekend at a cabin/trip but it doesn’t generally go down the path toward self destruction… I would dare say, those who do are showing indications that there is something serious going on. I’m curious, has your wife ever tried counselling - that would be a much healthier way to cope with her stress than staying out all night with friends and doing drugs. As would, yoga. Or, joining a book club. Or, going for a drink and dinner with her best friend. Or, any number of other options…

 

[poppyfields]

54 minutes ago, confused_ said:

Lying, for example, shouldn't be even discussed as a red line.

And look what happened?  That boundary was never discussed and as such, she lied. 

And she felt perfectly justified in doing so too, and was also quite nonchalant about it. 

Yes respect is important and sorry to say but it would appear her respect for you is sorely lacking. 

That is why enforcing boundaries is so important, again not in an aggressive heavy-handed way but rather by respecting yourself and behaving and responding in ways congruent with that self-respect which to be blunt, means not tolerating bulls***.

Certain actions have consequences -  lying, cheating, excessive drug use, have consequences.

Six years ago I broke my engagement to a man who became a full blown drug addict

 It got very ugly, lots of lying and even cheating although I did not discover that until later.

Very long story short, I left the relationship.  One of the most difficult things I ever did because I loved him tons at the time. 

Disrespectful, hurtful actions have consequences, it's important both people in the relationship or marriage understand that imo.

Edited October 15, 2022 by poppyfields

[Els]

23 hours ago, confused_ said:

What I find particularly scary is that, when I decided I need to find something out, I googled about ways to check online activity and that's how I learned that Google keeps a track of every single movement you make if you have the feature enabled. Obviously she didn't have a clue either and that's how I'd seen it. What I mentioned as scary is the feeling of control and authority you have over a person when you are performing such an action.

It actually surprises me that people don't know (or at least suspect) that location info is tracked. I mean... google maps specifically requests location permissions the first time you run it, and it does nifty things like guess where your "home" or "work" is, and Google assistant pops up suggestions and weather notifications  based on your location... 😅 I like the timeline feature and I find it handy (especially during Covid times when I had to check if I was at an exposure site at a particular date and time in the past), but it didn't really occur to me that it would catch people unawares.

I think that repairing trust is definitely something that is a joint effort by both parties. She has to be able to trust that you won't check these things without her permission again, but you also need to be able to trust that she has good intentions regarding your marriage. Perhaps this is something that MC could help you with?

[Alpacalia]

I would venture to say that you don’t have respect if you have to insist on it.

There is one thing I noticed that you did not mention in your post is how you spent time with your wife before she started spending more time out on the town. 

Although, that is not meant to imply that she has a valid reason to go out every night and drink and do drugs with her friends, I'm saying that she is placing these things above you and the marriage that you have together.

There is a lot she is not telling you about what is happening in her life, and that is very unfortunate.

[confused_]

24 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

How were you spending time together before this? Does she seem uninterested in spending time with you or is she more interested in having fun with her friends?

We don't spend quality time together for years now. As we had no help with the kids from our parents, we were (and are) fading out watching series almost every night, for years now. None of us initiated this, it just happened for both of us.

She is uninterested in spending quality time together. I quote her: "why go on a date together? We will talk about the kids, the errands all over again and we 'll end up at our phones. It would be more fun if we were going out with a friendly couple or each one alone with their besties, instead of a date". I understand that this is true as our life is revolving around these matters and we spend so much time together at home to be fresh enough to have an amazing date. Even though the 506 times we went on a date over the past few years, it was way better that this statement. While I understand her saying this, it kinda hurt my feelings.

3 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

I think you’ll both be happier if you let her go out with friends — within reason, of course. (Wife's absence all the time won't make you happy.) So, how often are we talking about? Is it a reasonable amount? If so, I think you’re OK.

When she went emotional about the lack of personal and social life earlier this year, I pushed her into taking 4 days for herself and go meet her besties that live in a city 2 hours away via plane. When she came back, she was crying about how she completely lost her former, more social and carefree self, and how she needs to find some of that and some social balance in her life. She went to meet them again for a weekend a month ago, where they were partying until early morning. This incident a few days ago was her third or fourth massive night-out in a span of three months. 

 

3 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Which bothers you more?

The incident at the hotel or her time out with friends?

Definitely the incident. I was always supportive of her feelings. When she expressed the feeling that she feels alone and with no social life, I did everything in my power to help her. I am always taking over the kids so she can go out, I kept them one week on my own this summer so she can travel alone for the first time in 6 years to meet her friends.

[confused_]

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

I would venture to say that you don’t have respect if you have to insist on it.

There is one thing I noticed that you did not mention in your post is how you spent time with your wife before she started spending more time out on the town. 

Although, that is not meant to imply that she has a valid reason to go out every night and drink and do drugs with her friends, I'm saying that she is placing these things above you and the marriage that you have together.

There is a lot she is not telling you about what is happening in her life, and that is very unfortunate.

Thanks for bringing it up. I didn't incude it in my first post because I was unsure on how detailed can I be. I replied just now to your previous mention as well. We are not spending time together besides raising our kids and the household stuff. We spend alone time between 9pm to midnight, almost exclusively watching series or talking about household obligations and the kids. She is not a fan of the idea of going out on a date because of the reasons I mentioned above. I think she is always sincere and straight-forward when she is feeling unwell or has an issue - I don't think she would ever hide things that are happening in her life. But I am concerned that having 5 years of being intensely a SAHM, combined with a damaged communication and respect and routine between us, might have cracked something inside her irreversibly. When we discussed about this, she was verbally reassuring that there is stil love and care, but the routine is not allowing us to be more vivid to each other and that we will work on that. I still have a gut feeling that she hasn't told me everything that happened during her night-out but I will focus on getting past that feeling and work on the issues that matter. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, confused_ said:

I meant to say that there are some values beyond verbal agreement. They are taken for granted from both of us. Lying, for example, shouldn't be even discussed as a red line. What you wrote about respect is important. I think our lifestyle and choices have made an impact to the respect we feel about each other and we need to address this.

I think I understand what you're talking about.  There are certain boundaries which are so obvious that they shouldn't need to be spoken.  Lying, cheating  and violence for example - after all, common sense dictates that these things will jeopardise the relationship.   Other boundaries/needs are more personal and need to be discussed as the partner may not be able to guess that it's a thing.     

With my husband, we've never had pre-emptive discussions around boundaries.  And if things do go wrong, we just sort it out after the fact.  Threats of "I would leave if you do X" also have no place in our relationship because we have a family and it's so it's become bigger than the two of us.  Marriage is about working through problems

[confused_]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Disrespectful, hurtful actions have consequences, it's important both people in the relationship or marriage understand that imo.

Thanks for sharing your experience, I am sorry you went through that. I hope you are in a better place rn.

Thankfully she has done drugs only twice in the last 5 years, at least that I know of. Before marriage and kids, she was doing drugs like twice a year. I was a more frequent user but I never abused so when kids came my drug-related lifestyle just died on its own, and on the spot. I know her and I know drugs - it's fine by me if she does as rarely as she is now, but especially because she knows that I am not particularly judgmental with incidental drug use. That's why I wasn't sure if the drugs explanation for going back to the hotel was a real one.

Let's hope that this was a little lie while she has been trying to figure out herself as a normal adult again.

Edited October 15, 2022 by confused_

[Weezy1973]

OP, I get what you’re saying. Raising kids can indeed turn into a “ships passing in the night” scenario and more if a divide and conquer mentality. But it seems like she really has zero desire to connect with you. I would make a concerted effort for date nights - or even figuring out a way you can get away for a weekend without kids. My wife and I also don’t have family nearby, but when my in laws came to stay with us for a month, we took a few days away and they looked after our son. It gave us a chance to just spend time together alone. And it was awesome. 
 

Also, I definitely get the sense that you’re conflict avoidant. That makes it tough to communicate about difficult matters. But pushing through and talking about difficult topics pays benefits for a relationship in the long run. 

[mark clemson]

On the boundaries thing, I think there's a distinction between "mutually understood" boundaries and explicitly stated/spelled out boundaries.

I think the former works well for couples who "understand each other well." The weakness though, can be that sometimes a partner eventually crosses a boundary the other thought was mutually understood. That (is one thing that) can generate a need to "work on" the marriage - ie, talk through the issue that was created and what the boundaries actually are.

Since people gradually change over time, in a true LTR one's "implied"/"understood" boundaries for the other person might change, but the other person might not actually be aware of it. Conversely, a partner might develop (genuine) new interests in things that "cross boundaries" e.g. some of the ones folks are mentioning. Which is apparently what happened with your wife with the teen style nights out "partying".

So, communication on what is/isn't acceptable can be helpful. IF the boundary is genuinely too rigid for the other partner (and again, people can change over time), they may go about it in a sneaky/deceptive way, or they might decide to leave/end the relationship. Hopefully that isn't the case here and your wife has "gotten this out of her system."

IF it was me, I believe I'd let this one incident slide, but also a) have a conversation about this so the boundary IS explicit, and b)  be "keeping half an eye on her" just in case this is now a genuine behavior pattern and she actually is sneaking about. That is certainly far from ideal, but sometimes it makes sense to "trust but verify." Her newfound interest in acting somewhat recklessly and irresponsibly (for an adult mom) is also far from ideal and it appears "wasn't what you signed up for" when you got married.

Edited October 16, 2022 by mark clemson

[ExpatInItaly]

I think boundaries aside, there is obviously a very deep disconnect in your marriage. 

So while you two navigate the boundaries and expectations of each other, you very much need to address the fact that you two are growing apart. 

[Alpacalia]

15 hours ago, confused_ said:

She is uninterested in spending quality time together. I quote her: "why go on a date together? We will talk about the kids, the errands all over again and we 'll end up at our phones. It would be more fun if we were going out with a friendly couple or each one alone with their besties, instead of a date". I understand that this is true as our life is revolving around these matters and we spend so much time together at home to be fresh enough to have an amazing date. Even though the 506 times we went on a date over the past few years, it was way better that this statement. While I understand her saying this, it kinda hurt my feelings.

Yes, I can see how that would be hurtful.

It is a sign that your wife has other interests than you when she rebuffs your requests for time with her or announces how she has already planned to spend time without you.

It seems that you lost her interest somewhere along the line. Maybe due to a lack of depth in emotional connection. That emotional connection that women are so anchored by. Most likely, the degeneration happened slowly and steadily. There may have been a time when the roles were reversed and she may have stopped pushing you to spend time with her or nurture the marriage, and she was left with one question: how not to lose herself in it?

It would make sense for her to compensate for the emotional and physical absence by rekindling her social life and building a parallel life with no space for you. Whether you choose to stay and fight to save your marriage or walk away is the question at this point.

If you choose to stay and work on the marriage she, for her part, may or may not play along, depending on how far she’s drifted away.

[BaileyB]

17 hours ago, confused_ said:

When she expressed the feeling that she feels alone and with no social life, I did everything in my power to help her. I am always taking over the kids so she can go out, I kept them one week on my own this summer so she can travel alone for the first time in 6 years to meet her friends.

My dear friend could have written you last post - she was feeling the monotony of family life, she felt like all she did was drive the children to their activities. She became disconnected from her husband, who was always travelling for work. She began to look for opportunities to travel. She wanted to socialize because she felt like she had missed her youth. She cheated, she became suicidal, and she ultimately divorced her husband. She is an extreme example but the feelings are the same…

This woman is crying out for help but there is not much you can do if she has decided that she doesn’t want to invest in your marriage. She would rather go out with friends than with you because all the two of you share in common now are the children and life’s daily responsibilities. 

This is not really your problem to solve. Sure, you can take the kids and let her go and have her fun but she is searching for “something” and that something is not your marriage right now. My best advice, she needs individual counselling and then the two of you need marriage counselling. She needs to figure out what she wants and then the two of you need ti decide if she/you are willing to reinvest in the marriage. 

To say this is about her desire to have a social life and your willingness to let her go/allow her to feel safe in doing so is missing the real problems here…

Edited October 16, 2022 by BaileyB

[confused_]

She is always proactive when it comes to the household or the kids. Whhen the night comes, she takes long sessions on her phone just scrolling, and she leaves it down just to watch something together. I am not dramatically different than this, I was doing the same and maybe worse like three years ago, when my previous job was until late hours and I was exhausted. She told me a few times and I have made significant progress. 

She has zero sexual desire, she doesn't feel the need to spend quality time as a couple. I understand that I made things worse over the years by being indifferent, neglecting her needs from time to time, gaining some weight etc. I guess part of all that comes naturally when you are engaging in a married life. But I know I could have done so much better.

When we discussed about all these, she was reassuring that nothing has changed in terms of her feelings. She shows interest to leave down the phone and discuss. We hug and kiss more these days but we will see about this in the long term.

I want to stay active and alert on her needs and improve myself on things like physical appearance - today I began gym after many years. I keep thinking that if I am the husband I ought to be, things will be better if she says that the feelings haven't changed. I hope they haven't.