Looking for a Fearful Avoidant's perspective

[attachedandtossed]

I'll try to keep this short. I'm sure I will fail.

I'm a Secure (leaning anxious) 43m who had a lovely 9-month situationship with what I found to be a wonderful FA woman (38) that just ended a few days ago. Prior to meeting her, about 9 months prior, I'd gone through a divorce from a short marriage (2 years) with someone suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. A very traumatic experience that left me very cautious about relationships in general. I'd been in therapy through the whole thing, really worked on valuing myself, and developed a range of skills to practice more effective communication styles, and remain present when trying to build a relationship with new people.

I was very honest about this with this new woman, because I liked her almost immediately, and I didn't want her to find out something later that would negatively affect what our relationship could become. She not only said she was OK with that, but that she was also on board with taking this super slow and did not object when I said that I wanted to be super deliberate and intentional when deciding when to level-up the relationship. I told her that if she ever had a problem with it, was uncomfortable with our situation, then she could bring it up and we'd take stock of where we were in that moment and where we intended to go. Then we proceeded to spend 2-4 nights a week together (her mostly at my place, though I repeatedly volunteered to go to hers), spent weekends together snowed-in, went out of town together, talked about our futures a ton, and basically had a wonderful time. A few things raised my alarms, such as, she couldn't postgame after being intimate (go over what we liked and what we didn't), had a hard time expressing what she wanted with regards to where to visit or other things, and other than going over the NYT 36 questions to ask a potential when starting a relationship (her idea), was very hesitant to be open with me about her emotions. But I chalked that up to us not being fully committed to each other, and her not really wanting to open up fully until crossing that line which is understandable. Something I got the sense she wanted to do on more than a few occasions.

In all our time together, we maybe got in like 3 fights. In one, where she complained was that I was always trying to problem solve our relationship rather than just enjoying each other's company. A complaint I tried to internalize and account for in my interactions with her. And one about her wanting to spend more time with me and me apologizing but explaining that I needed my space. And that while I was crushing on her hard, I didn't want to fall into past bad habits, commit to a relationship, only to find out later that there was some incompatibility we'd yet to discover. She seemed OK with that, or at least never objected. We'd talked about going to Burning Man together this past summer, but I could go either way. I also told her, repeatedly, that if she wanted to go, she shouldn't base her decision on me. About a month out, she told me that she wanted to go alone. That she'd seen too many couples ruin their experience with relationship drama. I said that's totally fine, that I appreciated her telling me because I know those conversations are really hard for her as it was obvious pretty early on that she was allergic to confrontation of any kind. During this time we got right up to the edge of talking about what we were to each other a couple of times, but each time she balked (though she remembers it differently). Something I was OK with because I wasn't sure I was completely in a place to give myself over to her, and I also got the sense she valued her freedom and space and didn't want to push her.

Anyway, she went to Burning Man, came back, stayed with me in my apartment for a week, then went to The Azores on a previously planned trip to visit friends. During this time together, I completely fell for her and resolved myself to let down all of defenses, but we still didn't talk about defining our relationship but we did agree to take a trip together to Sicily. We settled the details of that trip over text and Whatsapp while she was in The Azores in between texting each other sweet nothings and freely expressing how much we missed each other. There was no sign anything was wrong.

I got to London 10 hours before her and she woke me up in the hotel room upon her arrival. As I'd resolved to express my feelings fully, I told her how much I missed her and that I'd like to take our relationship to the next level, and her face told me immediately that was the wrong move. Since we were just at the start of her trip, I told her that we could discuss this whenever she was ready. She never brought it up. Anyway, the trip was great, save for one, very short drunken fight, and one night where I tried to gain clarity on what had caused it. I could immediately see her tense up, to which I said that it seems she gets activated anticipating any kind of conflict, but that I'd be here to talk whenever she felt ready, and dropped the issue. Looking back, I feel like that moment was a turning point in her feelings for me. Like a decision had been made that I wasn't aware of. However, aside from me getting food poisoning (where she took amazing care of me) and a lack of us having a lot of sex, the trip was amazing. Plenty of cuddling, hand-holding, and other kinds of intimacy. I apologized for the lack of sex due to me recovering from the food poisoning for half the trip, she waved it off and said, specifically, "Did I say anything about it? Don't worry!!" so I didn't.

We went back to London, and though I could feel something was off I chalked it up to exhaustion because we were still having a good time and she was still being affectionate holding my hand, leaning her head on my shoulder, giving me random smooches. I left the next day, and she remained as it was always her plan to visit with friends there, and maybe go to Ireland for the weekend before returning home. It was only then that I felt the change really hard, something had changed in her interactions with me. Her texts weren't as responsive, she didn't initiate much conversation, never attempted to call. Part of me felt this was because we were never all up in each other's business, but the other part of me started to recognize her pulling away. Then that last weekend when she was in Ireland, it got really bad. The texts were distant. Sometimes she took a day to respond (which was really out of character) and all of the sweetness was gone from them. I'm not the jealous or clingy type, so I let her be. I'm pretty sure there was a guy there, maybe someone she met at Burning Man, because of how she reacted later when I asked her about that part of her trip, she was vague, effusive, and her stories lacked detail. But I did make a reservation for a restaurant we'd wanted to go to for a long time for two weeks after she returned, and asked her to keep the night open, to which she enthusiastically agreed.

Then she got home. I intentionally gave her space so that she could adjust, but I did get tickets from a friend to an event I knew she'd enjoy, and when I invited her, she cancelled plans with her friends to accompany me. Lots of hand holding, snuggling in our seats, and affection. But she was clear from jump that she'd be spending the night at home. Which didn't really phase me cause I'd always told her that was always fine. The next night we went out to dinner, after which I told her that we needed to have the conversation about where we were going with this, to which I got the same look I'd gotten when I'd asked her at the beginning of the trip. Since we were outside her apartment, I asked if we could go up and finish talking. She agreed. But we didn't talk. We made out then had sex for the first time since the start of our trip almost three weeks ago, and spent a long time staring in each other's eyes and in each other's arms in what is probably one of the most tender moments I've ever experienced. Knowing how much she dreads these kinds of conversations, I told her to take the week and think about whether or not she was ready to commit to me. Two days later, when she asked if she could come over and chat, I knew what was coming, gathered her stuff in a bag, and awaited the executioner's ax.

She told me that she needed to end things. That our relationship felt like we were always problem solving. That she had had doubts since she went to the Azores. I told her I respected her decision, that I cared for her deeply, and that I was bummed that she wasn't giving us the opportunity to experience what could happen with us absent our barriers, said I wasn't going to try to convince her to move forward, but that I was hurt that she didn't give me the opportunity to address her concerns before it was too late. I did not get mad, I did not cry, I did not beg or plead. I told her the door is open if she changed her mind. As she was putting her shoes on to leave, she asked if she could expect to hear from me. I told her that it would take me a while to properly process my emotions, and that if in six months time, she wanted to, she should reach out and see where I'm at. I went and got her bag of stuff, of which there wasn't much. Opened my arms and told her to bring it in, and we hugged for a good minute or two. The whole thing took 10 min. Then she was gone.

I texted her 30 minutes later telling her she was great, that I really appreciated and enjoyed these past nine months, then reminded her that the door is open if she changed her mind. She responded two hours later saying that she really appreciated our time together and when the time was right, she hoped to have me in her life in any capacity.

So, my questions to this board are the following:

What do you all think happened? Is this a deactivation, or did she just move on?

If the former would you as an FA, given enough time to reflect, and over the deactivation, want to try again? Or, try the first time?

Does the fact we were never "officially" together have any effect on anything in your mind? Like does it remove any hesitance to try again because it isn't really trying again?

If yes, what would you want a former partner of a sort to do? What would give me the greatest chance of success?

Should I reach out to her, and when?

I should say that I'm fine. I don't feel anxious in the least (despite what the length of this missive would imply). I just really felt a true and deep connection with this woman and I'm trying to decide if its worth making an effort to repair the relationship. I suspected, but wasn't sure of her attachment style till she called everything off the way she did, but knowing what I know now, I'm sure that I can approach her sensitivities in a way that we can build a strong and satisfying relationship.

Any insight is appreciated. My complete and total thanks in advance. Even for just reading this.

Sincerely, attachandtoss.

[Wiseman2]

52 minutes ago, attachedandtossed said:

She told me that she needed to end things. That our relationship felt like we were always problem solving.

Sorry this happened. It's hard to start over, after a recent divorce. It does seem like there was a bit of over analysis and lack of definition. But the first try at daring after divorce is a good trial run to rethink what you want from a relationship. Sometimes it boils down to incompatibility, such as in this case. Try to leave therapy in the therapists office so you can relax and simply get to know women human-to-human rather than label-to-label

[glows]

I didn’t read this as attachment problems. You took almost nine months to decide whether you’d wanted to be with this woman in a relationship. I think she was extraordinarily patient and generous. I understand where you’re coming from as divorce isn’t easy to go through. 

She likely was very aware about how cautious you were and that reads to me as a product of not having fully healed past your dysfunctional marriage. She was plainly a rebound.

Every step with you sounded arduous and with a lot of analysis and conscious thought. As a whole I think it’s a great advantage thinking things through carefully but she felt that there was too much of that. The outcome is she likely didn’t feel she could be herself around you without constantly having to explain herself.

Up until now you’re trying to class her attachment style. Does she have a clinical psychologist or counsellor? Did she tell you that she identifies with this attachment style or was professionally diagnosed or typed? If she hasn’t identified with this herself, leave this concept. You’re both not compatible and I think timing had a great deal to do with it. I just do not think she fully felt comfortable around you and she slowly realized she’d wouldn’t ever be comfortable around you like this. It wasn’t fair for her to hang on or lead you on when she doesn’t feel the same way. 

It’s fine to put yourself out there but situations like this are bound to happen after something like a divorce. Give yourself a couple of years to breathe and by no means are you not able to go on dates. Enjoy your life.

Everyone is different and she may see changes in you next year or the year after. We can’t say whether there’s no chance for you both to find one another or rekindle feelings. At this time though, without any changes on your end, I don’t think anything about she feels about you will change in your favour.

[attachedandtossed]

Thank you for your perspective. It's not something I'm unaware of. I'm giving myself time to think things through and consider my next steps, I also realize that I didn't give her enough space to come to me with her issues, rather than always bringing it up myself. I think that's a leftover from my divorce that I need to let go of. That being said, she is a great woman and I wish her all the happiness in the world. I hope, for now, that I'll be in it. I'm also OK if I'm not.

[ExpatInItaly]

19 hours ago, attachedandtossed said:

she couldn't postgame after being intimate (go over what we liked and what we didn't)

I would find it weird and awkaward if a man wanted to "postgame" with me after sex. There is a time and place for those conversations, and afer sex isn't it. 

I tend to agree with her that it's you that was always on high alert and unable to enjoy the moment. You sound too cautious to really relax into a relationship and I would find that level of analysis and hesitation quite frustrating, to be honest. I understand you are trying to protect yourself but it doesn't seem you are ready for a relationship yet. Nothing you wrote appears (to me) to suggest that she has an attachment issue. She was simply reading your cues that you were afraid and she was also not keen to open herself up to a guy who seemed so hesitant. 

I would take more time to heal. Explore your own fears. Then consider dating again. 

[salparadise]

I'm not convinced that any of this was your fault exactly, although I do agree that you should try to feel, appreciate, and enjoy rather than being so analytical while you're dating and getting to know someone. And as for exactly why she broke it off, she just realized that she wasn't into you anymore after nine months of dating. Yes, perhaps you trying to problem solve was something she didn't care for but I seriously doubt that that is the whole story. She was just ready to move on, and I do not think that you should be hopeful that she might circle back around. That is unlikely. I also doubt that it was a timing problem. I think that she just has high walls up and is afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable. She probably needs to fall crazy, uncontrollably in love herself before that could happen, and with you it was only half and she was keeping one foot out the door the whole time (as evidenced by her never wanting to talk about it).

Life is too short to spend it with someone who is always holding you at arm's length, never really letting you inside of their hoola hoop. Try to date someone who meets you half way and puts the same amount of energy into the relationship as you do... and someone who isn't averse to talking about where things are when it's time. I'd also say take time off to finish getting past the divorce and this one so that you're free and clear and not so prone to rigidity and analyzing.. 

[attachedandtossed]

I think the confusing part for me is the lack of pulling away, then the sudden nature of the breakup, and having sex with me then calling it off two days later. The fact she encouraged the planning of, then allowed me to go to Italy with her when she knew she had doubts, and the utter lack of any signals leading up to the breakup that it was what was coming. 

As always, these stories are just a small glimpse into the picture. And there are aspects about her romantic history and familial history that I left out specifically because those aren't my stories to tell. I'm confident in my assessment given my experience with her, and I'm looking for very specific feedback. That's why I posed the questions the way I did. However, I do appreciate the possibility that I'm wrong and considering that input. That said, I've heard from the "she's just not that into you," folks. And, "it's your fault for over-analyzing" group.

I also don't agree that she wasn't that into me, as it was clear she was. I think that's something people just have to take me at my word. I'm trying to process what happened from the information that I'm certain of, and while I appreciate any and all feedback, I'd encourage people to read comments others have posted previously, and my specific questions, and abstain from piling-on. As I'm not sure how it's helpful.

If you'd like to look at my specific questions and address them, I'd be forever grateful. But if you're just here to tell me that this is my fault and I should just move on. None of you could say it louder or more often than I'm saying it to myself, so there is no need. 

Thanks again.

[attachedandtossed]

I'm also stuck on her last line in that last text, "I would love to have you in my life in any capacity." Seems like someone sure of their decision would say something along the lines of, "I hope one day we can be friends." The lack of clarity in that sentence seems intentional.

Edited October 30, 2022 by attachedandtossed

[lonelyplanetmoon]

5 hours ago, attachedandtossed said:

I'm also stuck on her last line in that last text, "I would love to have you in my life in any capacity." Seems like someone sure of their decision would say something along the lines of, "I hope one day we can be friends." The lack of clarity in that sentence seems intentional.

It is funny how we each have differing perspectives.  I translated her “I would love to have you in my life in any capacity” comment as saying  “I hope one day we can be friends”  just said in a different way.

Why would you want to be with someone you could not talk deeply with anyway?

you would always be walking on eggshells fearing this or that.

 

 

[attachedandtossed]

1 hour ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

It is funny how we each have differing perspectives.  I translated her “I would love to have you in my life in any capacity” comment as saying  “I hope one day we can be friends”  just said in a different way.

Yeah, I think that I would agree, cept that it was in response to me clearly stating that the door was open for her to come back into the relationship. I feel like in that light, someone who was done, would want to shut the door to a relationship completely. "Any capacity" implies some recognition that maybe the timing wasn't right. Cause, what other capacity is there if we're not together? Maybe if she had written some capacity, I'd be less stuck on it. I mean. I really don't know, but that seems intentional. Or, at least that she was conflicted with her choice.

1 hour ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

Why would you want to be with someone you could not talk deeply with anyway?

you would always be walking on eggshells fearing this or that.

I do agree, having been in a relationship with a Borderline person, that it is no fun to walk on eggshells. I have no desire to go back to that place. But, that wasn't the case with this woman. I'd sort of stopped the growth I started in my former marriage in regards to the way that I communicated my needs. And, in the immediate aftermath of this breakup, given her reasons for it, I'm realizing I wasn't sensitive enough or in tune enough with her communication style to be the kind of partner I could have. I honestly feel that if given another chance, we could have something wonderful.

But more than anything else, I'm trying to process something that I did not see coming, and was given no opportunity to rectify. 

As always, I appreciate all who've take the time to respond, and look forward to more feedback.

[Acacia98]

14 hours ago, salparadise said:

I'm not convinced that any of this was your fault exactly, although I do agree that you should try to feel, appreciate, and enjoy rather than being so analytical while you're dating and getting to know someone..

(...)

Yes, perhaps you trying to problem solve was something she didn't care for but I seriously doubt that that is the whole story. She was just ready to move on, and I do not think that you should be hopeful that she might circle back around. That is unlikely. I also doubt that it was a timing problem. I think that she just has high walls up and is afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable.

(...)

Life is too short to spend it with someone who is always holding you at arm's length, never really letting you inside of their hoola hoop. Try to date someone who meets you half way and puts the same amount of energy into the relationship as you do... and someone who isn't averse to talking about where things are when it's time. I'd also say take time off to finish getting past the divorce and this one so that you're free and clear and not so prone to rigidity and analyzing.. 

I agree with these sentiments

[Wiseman2]

Is it possible you're stuck in "problem solving" mode because you started dating too soon after your divorce? 

Therapy is a great support after divorce but bringing all that heaviness into a budding relationship may have made it too difficult to navigate.

Take a break from things to relax and reflect. Keep in mind that the first few people you date after divorce may not be a good match but just filling voids.

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, attachedandtossed said:

"Any capacity" implies some recognition that maybe the timing wasn't right. Cause, what other capacity is there if we're not together? Maybe if she had written some capacity, I'd be less stuck on it.

This is you over-analyzing again, OP. 

You're trying to parse her words too much and assign too much meaning to a comment she likely didn't give that much thought to. Try to avoid doing this, as it leads you to play mind games with yourself. You're assuming she thinks the way you do, when it's pretty clear that she doesn't. 

The takeaway is that she didn't wish to continue the relationshop. Focus on the general message rather than zooming in too much on her choice of quantifier. 

[attachedandtossed]

That is a valid perspective which I will take into account. I guess I'm stuck on the fact that there was no chance for me to rectify the situation, which sticks in my head. I guess, were I in her shoes, I wouldn't leave a situation like this without first clearly expressing my doubts in a manner that gives the other person an avenue to meet me in the middle. I appreciate the time everyone took to respond. I will attempt to take your advice to heart. 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, attachedandtossed said:

I guess, were I in her shoes, I wouldn't leave a situation like this without first clearly expressing my doubts in a manner that gives the other person an avenue to meet me in the middle.

That's what I was saying before - she isn't you. You can't really apply your own thought processes and conduct to her. 

The way you would do something is not the way she would. It's hard not to fall into that trap, but it's best to keep reminding yourself that she doesn't think the way you do, and as such, didn't make the same choices you would. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, attachedandtossed said:

 I guess, were I in her shoes, I wouldn't leave a situation like this without first clearly expressing my doubts in a manner that gives the other person an avenue to meet me in the middle.

Unfortunately breakups are unilateral. She did tell you it was because of "too much problem solving", so she did inform you of things. Post break up renegotiations are not really a good idea. I may be wrong, but you seem to be applying your divorce dynamics to all this as if trying to undo what went wrong there.

[attachedandtossed]

No so much trying to undo as to understand. I get that she's not me. As I said, I will internalize your advice and move on. Thanks again.

[mark clemson]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:07 AM, attachedandtossed said:

Any insight is appreciated.

I guess I'm surprised that someone with a secure attachment style would stay in a relationship with (and even marry) a BPD person. Also you seem to be chasing someone who's mostly marginally interested (although perhaps she put on a good act in bed?)

Is your claim of a secure attachment style self-assessed? If so, I'd re-visit that - an answer/better self-assessment there might lead to a lot of insights for you, and could help in the future. I'd re-examine this as a starting point.

[attachedandtossed]

As I said. I'm internalizing this advice. And I appreciate what this board has been able to provide. 

[Wiseman2]

18 hours ago, attachedandtossed said:

No so much trying to undo as to understand. 

There's not that much to understand. You dated a while and she stated that the chronic analysis and "problem solving" were the reasons she ended it.

Keep in mind dating is supposed to be a fun get to know you type of process, not a post game analysis of everything.

All you can do is take that to heart and discontinue putting women and relationships under a microscope. 

Perhaps you're too concerned with getting hurt again since you started dating much too soon after your divorce. This could be why you're trying to overanalyze things, which ironically seems to be backfiring. 

Dating and relationships are not to rebuild self esteem after divorce, including "how was I in bed?" and other types of unnessary reassurances.

 

 

[attachedandtossed]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment and respond. It is appreciated.