I'm feeling haunted

[Wiseman2]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:16 AM, lftbehind said:

. I want to feel better about him. Sometimes I do and then he'll go off on me again. 

Have you read up on "abuse cycles"? Have you started getting support from Al-Anon? 

Have you seen a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health? Have you gotten a referral to a qualified therapist?

You seem to be hoping he changes into something he's not. 

Have you spoken to an attorney for an accurate assessment of your situation in the event of divorce?

Does your estrangement from family coincidence with being married to an abusive alcoholic?

These are questions to reflect on rather than if having an affair to run away from problems was a good idea or not.

These are things that could help your situation and dispell your feelings of helplessness and hopelessness.

[Will am I]

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

I wrote earlier, but I guess it didn't post  

He has a good sense of humor, he's smart, attractive and seems to care about me. He tries to be a good provider, too. 

The tragic about your marriage is that it doesn’t seem to be a clear “stay” or a clear “go”.

On the one hand, you’re desperate. And you present a situation that contains more than enough red flags to end a marriage over.

But then you write this and there really is a spark between you two.

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

 I think that he thinks that he can get away with anything, sometimes.

I think he cares about me and the marriage. 

Here’s your ambivalence perfectly captured in two conservative lines.

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

He does feel uncomfortable with emotional talks. I don't talk about that kind of thing with him too much. He does make everything about himself at times. 

The picture is one of emotional illiteracy, fleeing into substances to numb emotions, being unable to face the emotions let alone talk about them openly with hus wife.

My biggest fear would be that he might be genuinely unable to meet your emotional needs.

Unable is both better and worse than unwilling. Better because it’s no malicous intent, worse because it may be harder to change.

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

I think that he has a bad mentality when he gets upset. 

I challenge that. I think it’s bad mentality where he allows himself to get in that angry and mean state. Once in that state, it’s more impulsive.

Maybe it’s not even bad mentality, but the lack of emotional skills to recognize rising levels of irritation before he derails.

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

He drank and did substances with them, too. He was married before and it doesn't sound like it was romantic, more like a partnership. 

Frequent use of substances, especially use of substances as a coping mechanism to deal with emotions, stands in the way of emotional growth.

 

[lftbehind]

7 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Have you read up on "abuse cycles"? Have you started getting support from Al-Anon? 

Have you seen a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health? Have you gotten a referral to a qualified therapist?

You seem to be hoping he changes into something he's not. 

Have you spoken to an attorney for an accurate assessment of your situation in the event of divorce?

Does your estrangement from family coincidence with being married to an abusive alcoholic?

These are questions to reflect on rather than if having an affair to run away from problems was a good idea or not.

These are things that could help your situation and dispell your feelings of helplessness and hopelessness.

I've done some reading about abuse and I used to go to Al-Anon. I didn't think it helped and he got mad at me when he found out I went there. 

I do have a few health problems. I've had therapy before and I don't think it would help. I have read self-help and books about psychology. 

We get along some, it's just bad sometimes. I don't fight with him, because I really don't like to. 

I haven't had a chance to talk to an attorney. 

I think that he plays a part estrangement from family.  

I do need to work on my problems instead of running away from them. It's hard, because I can only control my part in the marriage. He can act the way that he wants and I just have to deal with it. 

 

[lftbehind]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

The tragic about your marriage is that it doesn’t seem to be a clear “stay” or a clear “go”.

On the one hand, you’re desperate. And you present a situation that contains more than enough red flags to end a marriage over.

But then you write this and there really is a spark between you two.

Here’s your ambivalence perfectly captured in two conservative lines.

The picture is one of emotional illiteracy, fleeing into substances to numb emotions, being unable to face the emotions let alone talk about them openly with hus wife.

My biggest fear would be that he might be genuinely unable to meet your emotional needs.

Unable is both better and worse than unwilling. Better because it’s no malicous intent, worse because it may be harder to change.

I challenge that. I think it’s bad mentality where he allows himself to get in that angry and mean state. Once in that state, it’s more impulsive.

Maybe it’s not even bad mentality, but the lack of emotional skills to recognize rising levels of irritation before he derails.

Frequent use of substances, especially use of substances as a coping mechanism to deal with emotions, stands in the way of emotional growth.

 

It is hard to know what to do about the marriage. It seems like it's getting better and then he'll get mad over nothing again, then I feel like I'm back where I started and I do feel desperate. 

There are red flags, but they are not so bad that it's clear that I have to leave. That's what makes it hard. 

We can get along, but I guess that I feel emotionally unsafe with him. I never know when he will get mad with me. I try not to make him mad. 

That is bad if he can't meet my emotional needs. You're right, he shouldn't let himself get in an angry and mean state. I hardly say anything to him and he blows up. He should be able to know when he is getting that way and stop himself, especially since it hurts me. It's like he doesn't care. That's my biggest problem with him. 

I don't know if substance abuse has affected his personality, but certain substances mellow him out. 

I'm scared that he's going to be one of those older men that is angry all the time. He made a comment like he wants to be a crusty old man. That's what happened with my step-dad. He and my mom had a pretty good marriage for a long time and his health got worse and he drank. He started being abusive with my mom and she had to leave him. He was terrible to her. It's a sad situation. 

 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, lftbehind said:

I don't know if substance abuse has affected his personality, but certain substances mellow him out. 

When you are walking on eggshells around your husband and you are both relying on alcohol or whatever other substance he uses to “mellow him out,” you have a problem in your marriage. It’s time to leave.

1 hour ago, lftbehind said:

I'm scared that he's going to be one of those older men that is angry all the time.

Sounds like he is already there…

1 hour ago, lftbehind said:

I used to go to Al-Anon. I didn't think it helped and he got mad at me when he found out I went there. 

What does that tell you? 

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, lftbehind said:

I do need to work on my problems instead of running away from them. It's hard, because I can only control my part in the marriage. He can act the way that he wants and I just have to deal with it. 

Yes you do.  You seem to have a million excuses why you can't makes steps to improve your marriage or leave.  You're blaming everything from your health to your finances and then back to blaming your husband.  But with all of those excuses not to make a move to improve your situation you still found the time, energy and money to engage in an affair.  You said you can't go live with your daughter until you can get on your feet because your husband alienated her from you, yet you say you can see her when you want.  So you do have a way out.  I'm sure your daughter would give her abused mother a place to stay until she could get herself together.  When pressed about making a move to leave your abusive husband you then start downplaying his abuse and making him out to not be that bad.  Most women who are extremely abused and with health problems are too afraid to even think about having an affair.  You say your husband doesn't meet your emotional needs but let me ask, are you meeting his?  It's doubtful because your mind is on another man.  Your husband probably senses something is up with you and that could be why he's feeling so much anger.  This can't all be blamed on him.  

[Will am I]

I see a dynamic where both spouses do things that hurt the other.

And both tend to hide away from the trouble rather than face it, own it and try to grow. Methods of sedation are a bit different, he seems to like alcohol, she got to the point where male attention provided the  relief.

Red flags in abundance. So many that the rational choice is to leave. You do realize that @lftbehindright?

At the same time I read about a woman who does love her husband and has been very forgiving of his behaviour.

I believe your deepest desire is to a better marriage. I sympathize very strongly because that’s exactly where I was at when I let myself slip into infidelity and when I almost got to the point of ending the marriage.

Here’s the deal: things won’t change until the moment you decide that you will not go on like this.

You need to set your priorities (fix / leave / stay) and only if you put “stay” as the least favorite pick and learn to own that choice is when you will start to move.

Right now you seem to want a better marriage, but your second choice is to simply stay. You do think about divorce but that doesn’t really seem to exceed the phase where you glance at the option, we see you shy away when the thought gets more concrete. I think you have “leave” on position 3 of your list. And because “stay” is above “leave”, things do not change.

 

 

[lftbehind]

14 hours ago, BaileyB said:

When you are walking on eggshells around your husband and you are both relying on alcohol or whatever other substance he uses to “mellow him out,” you have a problem in your marriage. It’s time to leave.

Sounds like he is already there…

What does that tell you? 

We have those problems, but are they enough to leave?

It does sound like it. 

He doesn't want for me to talk about his drinking with other people. 

[lftbehind]

13 hours ago, stillafool said:

Yes you do.  You seem to have a million excuses why you can't makes steps to improve your marriage or leave.  You're blaming everything from your health to your finances and then back to blaming your husband.  But with all of those excuses not to make a move to improve your situation you still found the time, energy and money to engage in an affair.  You said you can't go live with your daughter until you can get on your feet because your husband alienated her from you, yet you say you can see her when you want.  So you do have a way out.  I'm sure your daughter would give her abused mother a place to stay until she could get herself together.  When pressed about making a move to leave your abusive husband you then start downplaying his abuse and making him out to not be that bad.  Most women who are extremely abused and with health problems are too afraid to even think about having an affair.  You say your husband doesn't meet your emotional needs but let me ask, are you meeting his?  It's doubtful because your mind is on another man.  Your husband probably senses something is up with you and that could be why he's feeling so much anger.  This can't all be blamed on him.  

I'm not trying to give excuses, but I'm trying to answer questions that I'm asked. I don't blame everything on my husband. Me and my daughter don't have contact and I can't go stay with her. I have to try and deal with him until I can leave. I'm not extremely abused, but somewhat. I know that I'm flawed and makes mistakes, but I want to be a better person. I'm sure that I don't meet all of his emotional needs and I don't feel good about it. I've sort of shut off emotionally from him, because I've felt hurt by him. 

[lftbehind]

11 hours ago, Will am I said:

I see a dynamic where both spouses do things that hurt the other.

And both tend to hide away from the trouble rather than face it, own it and try to grow. Methods of sedation are a bit different, he seems to like alcohol, she got to the point where male attention provided the  relief.

Red flags in abundance. So many that the rational choice is to leave. You do realize that @lftbehindright?

At the same time I read about a woman who does love her husband and has been very forgiving of his behaviour.

I believe your deepest desire is to a better marriage. I sympathize very strongly because that’s exactly where I was at when I let myself slip into infidelity and when I almost got to the point of ending the marriage.

Here’s the deal: things won’t change until the moment you decide that you will not go on like this.

You need to set your priorities (fix / leave / stay) and only if you put “stay” as the least favorite pick and learn to own that choice is when you will start to move.

Right now you seem to want a better marriage, but your second choice is to simply stay. You do think about divorce but that doesn’t really seem to exceed the phase where you glance at the option, we see you shy away when the thought gets more concrete. I think you have “leave” on position 3 of your list. And because “stay” is above “leave”, things do not change.

 

 

There are red flags, but I think that things can be saved. I can see why leaving could be a rational choice. 

I love him and I am pretty laid back and don't ask too much of him. I 

I would like a better marriage. I would like to feel emotionally secure, which I haven't for a while. Sometimes the way that he treats me makes me feel so bad and alone. 

You're right, I need to set priorities and work towards them. 

It would be hard to walk away from him forever, unless things were so bad that I didn't have a choice. 

[Will am I]

We’re not attacking you. We’re calling you out. Because your indecision is keeping you in a bad situation.

You may feel as if you’re between a rock and a hard place, but the opposite may be true: that both other options are less painful than your current situation.

[Will am I]

1 minute ago, lftbehind said:

There are red flags, but I think that things can be saved. 

I appreciate your perseverance and the fact that you still show devotion to your marriage despite all that happened.

Do bear in mind: the change you are looking for requires motivation and skill, from both parties.

Primarily motivation, because skill can be learned if you are motivated.

The big step in getting your man on your team is that you need to toughen up. He currently has no reason to change his behaviour because he can safely assume that you’re not leaving him anyway. Once that changes and he feels he’s actually at risk of losing out on a wonderful girl, maybe he’ll be more open ro change his ways.

No guarantees though, because patterns of substance use and self medication are notoriously hard to break.

So it all starts with you and you being ready to walk away. It’s a paradox but keeping your marriage may mean you need to be willing to leave it.

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

He doesn't want for me to talk about his drinking with other people. 

No, alcoholics don’t generally like people knowing the truth of what happens behind closed doors. Nor do abusers. 

He doesn’t want you to educate yourself, or seek support, because you may decide to leave. He loses control, and you decide to leave. 

5 hours ago, lftbehind said:

We have those problems, but are they enough to leave?

It does sound like it. 

People have filed for divorce for a lot less. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by BaileyB

[lftbehind]

21 hours ago, Will am I said:

We’re not attacking you. We’re calling you out. Because your indecision is keeping you in a bad situation.

You may feel as if you’re between a rock and a hard place, but the opposite may be true: that both other options are less painful than your current situation.

It's hard to walk away when nothing majorly bad has happened. 

[lftbehind]

21 hours ago, Will am I said:

I appreciate your perseverance and the fact that you still show devotion to your marriage despite all that happened.

Do bear in mind: the change you are looking for requires motivation and skill, from both parties.

Primarily motivation, because skill can be learned if you are motivated.

The big step in getting your man on your team is that you need to toughen up. He currently has no reason to change his behaviour because he can safely assume that you’re not leaving him anyway. Once that changes and he feels he’s actually at risk of losing out on a wonderful girl, maybe he’ll be more open ro change his ways.

No guarantees though, because patterns of substance use and self medication are notoriously hard to break.

So it all starts with you and you being ready to walk away. It’s a paradox but keeping your marriage may mean you need to be willing to leave it.

You're right, both people need to be motivated to make the marriage work. 

How can I make him see that he's at risk of me leaving if things don't get better?

I guess he knows that I don't really have the means to support myself right now. It makes sense that it would be good if I were ready to walk away, if I had to. 

[lftbehind]

16 hours ago, BaileyB said:

No, alcoholics don’t generally like people knowing the truth of what happens behind closed doors. Nor do abusers. 

He doesn’t want you to educate yourself, or seek support, because you may decide to leave. He loses control, and you decide to leave. 

People have filed for divorce for a lot less. 

I never thought that he might think that I may decide to leave if I got educated and got support. I told him that I since he wasn't going to quit, I needed support to handle living with it. He just acted like I was betraying him by going. I was depressed about living in the situation and trying to see how other people handle it. 

They sure have filed for divorce for less. 

[Will am I]

42 minutes ago, lftbehind said:

It's hard to walk away when nothing majorly bad has happened. 

I understand what you mean.

But I argue that divorce should be the outcome of careful deliberation about your future. There's your future with your husband and your future without him. Overseeing these two, you choose one.

Because you'd be deliberating the future, the past does not have so big a role. What happened in the past stays in the past. It's behind you. The decision whether or not to file for divorce is not directly related to these past events, it's all about what you expect going forward. The reason that the past is an important consideration nevertheless, is that past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour. The past contains lessons about your husband, about your relationship, about yourself. But it's really about the future.

 

37 minutes ago, lftbehind said:

You're right, both people need to be motivated to make the marriage work. 

How can I make him see that he's at risk of me leaving if things don't get better?

By toughening up. Because right now when he thinks his marriage is safe, he is actually correct. You're not going anywhere. So what motivation are you giving him?

Very personal question: are you afraid of being alone and living as a single lady into retirement and older age? Do you somehow feel that you need a man in your life?

 

37 minutes ago, lftbehind said:

I guess he knows that I don't really have the means to support myself right now. It makes sense that it would be good if I were ready to walk away, if I had to. 

And you can. It will be sacrifice where you may need to move to a more affordable area, live in very basic housing and accept poverty for a while. But you can.

If you get to the point where you need to choose between comfort and dignity, I hope you will have the integrity to let dignity win.

 

I think a lot of people on this topic are wondering why you haven't left him already.

But you do love your husband, it shows between the lines. You're not ready with him just yet.

 

Essentially your message to him should be like this:

* I love you and I want you and I want to be with you.

* The way things are going is making me very unhappy. To the point that I have chosen to leave things do not change.

* Please be on my team. Let's be in a better, more loving, more joyful, more fulfilling, more satisfying marriage.

* But if you don't want to make an effort and be on that journey with me, I am out. 

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, lftbehind said:

It's hard to walk away when nothing majorly bad has happened. 

Unfortunately this is what was happening in your affair. Staying married but complaining to this man about your marriage. You're doing the same thing here.

[Will am I]

I think affairs can be a coping mechanism and a way to temporarily numb out the pain of a hurtful relationship. In that sense it's rather comparable to alcohol or other sedatives.

 

In the very least, both are escapes when struggling to climb the ladder of emotional literacy.

Alcohol and drugs are quite low on the ladder (have difficulty feeling emotions -> numb them).

Affairs can be there too as a tool to numb emotions, but they also appear on a higher step of the ladder (have trouble connecting on a truly empathic level with your spouse -> find your sense of connection and belonging in an affair).

 

 

 

[stillafool]

8 hours ago, lftbehind said:

How can I make him see that he's at risk of me leaving if things don't get better?

You can start by telling him that you had an affair and your reasons why.  That will shock him awake and then suggest marriage counseling if he wants to stay married or tell him you're prepared to leave.

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, lftbehind said:

How can I make him see that he's at risk of me leaving if things don't get better?

Divorce papers. Talking at him hasn't worked nor has distracting yourself in affairs. He is not  going to magically change and stop drinking and being abusive.

[BaileyB]

12 hours ago, lftbehind said:

How can I make him see that he's at risk of me leaving if things don't get better?

The best way to get his attention is to file for divorce.

Unfortunately, you have taught him that he doesn’t need to change because despite the talking, you continue to stay… 

[lftbehind]

23 hours ago, Will am I said:

I understand what you mean.

But I argue that divorce should be the outcome of careful deliberation about your future. There's your future with your husband and your future without him. Overseeing these two, you choose one.

Because you'd be deliberating the future, the past does not have so big a role. What happened in the past stays in the past. It's behind you. The decision whether or not to file for divorce is not directly related to these past events, it's all about what you expect going forward. The reason that the past is an important consideration nevertheless, is that past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour. The past contains lessons about your husband, about your relationship, about yourself. But it's really about the future.

 

By toughening up. Because right now when he thinks his marriage is safe, he is actually correct. You're not going anywhere. So what motivation are you giving him?

Very personal question: are you afraid of being alone and living as a single lady into retirement and older age? Do you somehow feel that you need a man in your life?

 

And you can. It will be sacrifice where you may need to move to a more affordable area, live in very basic housing and accept poverty for a while. But you can.

If you get to the point where you need to choose between comfort and dignity, I hope you will have the integrity to let dignity win.

 

I think a lot of people on this topic are wondering why you haven't left him already.

But you do love your husband, it shows between the lines. You're not ready with him just yet.

 

Essentially your message to him should be like this:

* I love you and I want you and I want to be with you.

* The way things are going is making me very unhappy. To the point that I have chosen to leave things do not change.

* Please be on my team. Let's be in a better, more loving, more joyful, more fulfilling, more satisfying marriage.

* But if you don't want to make an effort and be on that journey with me, I am out. 

I see what you mean about getting a divorce being about the future, I had never though about it that way. 

I didn't think that he would need motivation to treat me better, maybe he's does. 

Yes, I'm afraid of being alone and would like a man in my life. I think that could have one, but it's harder. I take care of myself and stay in shape. 

I think it's harder to be poor when you are older and I don't want to be. You don't really have dignity, because people look down on you, because you are poor. I was a single mother for a long time and didn't have much money. It's a very rough life. Without money, you are so limited in your life choices and you can't live a very good life. 

I do love him and that's why it's hard to leave. 

That's a good idea to give him the message that you wrote. I think that he would feel bad if I threatened to leave, though. 

  

 

[Wiseman2]

9 minutes ago, lftbehind said:

. I think that he would feel bad if I threatened to leave, though. 

 Yes. Ultimatums don't work. So a letter won't work either.  A letter will not make him stop drinking or change him.

A letter won't give you the information you need as to the financial outlook in the event of divorce. Do not write this message. Threats simply make matters worse.

If you can't talk to him it's pointless writing to him. If he wanted to be a loving husband and sober up, he would. With or without this message.

Trying to fix and change someone especially with ultimatums never works. 

If you want changes, you'll need professional advice, both from an attorney and a therapist to see what changes you can make. Talking at someone doesn't work. You need to take action.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Wiseman2

[lftbehind]

13 hours ago, BaileyB said:

The best way to get his attention is to file for divorce.

Unfortunately, you have taught him that he doesn’t need to change because despite the talking, you continue to stay… 

That's true, but I would have to leave as soon as I filed.