Some suggestions for a slow moving relationship

[poppyfields]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:26 PM, smackie9 said:

What if she doesn't like sex all that much after marriage...what then? What if she is a cold fish, boring, mechanical, etc. What then? IMO if you don't feel passion for each other by now, this is dead in the water already. She's won't allow sexual escalation. THAT would be a deal breaker would it not? 

I tend to agree with @smackie9.

OP, have you ever seen the film "Splendor in the Grass"? 

It focuses on a young couple during the Great Depression where attitudes toward sex and sexuality were oppressed and women who engaged in sex prior to marriage were deemed immoral and unworthy. 

I understand people even today uphold strict standards regarding premarital sex, however that did not/does not negate their sexual desire, sexual attraction and sexual passion for their partners.

It was and still is extremely difficult to maintain these standards in a hearthy vibrant relationship where two people are sexually attracted and sexually desire each other.

I am sorry to say that no matter what her values are concerning premarital sex, she sounds sexually repressed, her clothing style reflects this as well..

Or she is simply NOT sexually attracted to you and feels zero passion for you.

Your relationship sounds like a glorified friendship tbh. 

Even if you were to marry her, there's nothing good here from what I can see.. 

Sex will be a chore, an obligation, versus a shared activity stemming from mutual sexual desire and passion. 

If this is good enough for you carry on. 

If not, wish her well and leave and find a woman more compatible with your needs and desires. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by poppyfields

[dragonwalker]

In response to an earlier question from a poster about if I love her. I do feel love for her and I do think about her and I all the time. I see many unfavorable opinions on here towards continuing a relationship. For those of you who believe this, have you considered the type of people we are in relation to the “norm.” Obviously, all people are different, but I don’t think I’m wrong in saying our experiences are a significant deviation from the typical person that might come on here.

For the first time yesterday she invited me up to her room (although she had showed me before when we video chatted). I was struck by the contrast of it. On the one hand she had a very simple single size bed with no bed frame on the floor as her bed. She has a collection of these blond haired, Barbie dolls that are very elegantly and beautifully dressed that she has all about her room and some in drawers.  

On the other hand she has a medium size Louis Vuitton handbag sitting on a desk with a paper towel over it to prevent dust from getting in. She has a closet with a modest amount of clothes but no clothes racks.

I had this sense that there was some moment of her childhood frozen in time and I had stepped into her room as a kid. There were no pictures of family or friends. Just a collection of nick knacks and the doll figurines many of which kept in their original cases unopened even from childhood with original price tag possibly from more than 20 years ago. It was very childlike.

I mention all this just to bring another perspective about her behavior and to suggest that could it be that her hesitation to do more of the adult things associated in relationships is because its just so outside of her norm? When talking to her about life in general she doesn’t seem like a naïve person and to me appears to have a decent grasp on the general matters in life.      

To top it off we watched an episode of one of her favorite shows, Succession, on HBO where interestingly there were some weird sex scenes on the episode and where she didn’t appear phased by it and even made a joking comment. Throughout the video I was massaging her hand and we kissed afterwards. I offered to give her a real massage (something we joked about in chat before) but she declined. Apparently her mother had come to the house while we were out and when we were in her room she had her door open until I asked if we could shut it which she did but again it kind of felt like I was in middle school or something.  

All of this is me suggesting that maybe what some of you interpret as her hesitation or feelings toward me are a product of her upbringing and her mental state now?

[glows]

She may just feel awkward due to living with her mother. If this is her childhood bedroom and she’s never lived on her own before then yes, there may be some element of naïveté or lack of life experience. I don’t think any of this is indicative of what she feels for you. You’ve said there’s affection and understanding between you both.

[Gaeta]

18 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

All of this is me suggesting that maybe what some of you interpret as her hesitation or feelings toward me are a product of her upbringing and her mental state now?

How big of a project are you ready to take on?

It doesn't really matter what causes her behavior, it is who she is and it's a problem for you that she won't escalate the relationship. 

Naiveté and lack of experience doesn't explain her lack of passion and desire for you. At 18 I was naïve and inexperienced and very much a virgin but my hormones screamed loud and clear that I desired my bf (who became my husband). That's the part that would worry me if I were you. She doesn't need sex to show she desires you and is passionate about you. Her upbringing should tell her to not have sex but her hormones and desire for you should come through in some other ways.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Gaeta

[poppyfields]

10 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

How big of a project are you ready to take on?

It doesn't really matter what causes her behavior, it is who she is and it's a problem for you that she won't escalate the relationship. 

Naiveté and lack of experience doesn't explain her lack of passion and desire for you. At 18 I was naïve and inexperienced and very much a virgin but my hormones screamed loud and clear that I desired my bf (who became my husband). That's the part that would worry me if I were you. She doesn't need sex to show she desires you and is passionate about you. Her upbringing should tell her to not have sex but her hormones and desire for you should come through in some other ways.

Absolutely and what I pointed out as well in my earlier post. 

Strict rules surrounding sex may still exist in some religious circles, BUT that does not negate a person's sexual desire for another person. 

And as Gaeta said, there are many ways to express that desire without necessarily having sexual relations (intercourse).

It's just not happening for her OP and you can try to justify that until hell freezes over, it's not going to change that basic fact of human nature and sexuality.

[Wiseman2]

21 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

 It was very childlike. . Apparently her mother had come to the house while we were out and when we were in her room 

Does she live with her parents? This seems like a grey area somewhere between eccentric and weird. But you'll have to wait and see as well as zoom out to look at the big picture.

[dragonwalker]

Ok, to reiterate a few facts which I mentioned that I know some may have missed since this is a long thread. The home she lives in is her home that she bought several years ago. Although I suspect with help from her mother. Her mother does not live in the home but does occasionally come over to stay the night I am told. She also has a housemate which I found out the other day is her aunt. This reminds me of another event that happened that seemed a bit odd and sheds some light on the social dynamics. 

When I first arrived around dinner we ate, she mentioned her aunt will be coming back soon so we decided to go to a dessert place, came back after and I saw her aunt as soon as I walked in sitting in a chair. No one said anything as my girlfriend walked right by her without introducing me and didn't greet her either. I felt I needed to say hi and I did so but got no response or even an acknowledgment. I thought it was possible the aunt didn't hear but my girlfriend just chuckled and said "looks like she didn't hear you" but she was further away and even she heard me. Anyway, we went upstairs afterward. My girlfriend had said she didn't mind her aunt living there. 

Again, nowadays we hold hands, kiss, hug. I will say it was a little awkward getting closer to her in her room as she only had a chair with arms and other metal chair I sat on. It's as if her place wasn't really made for guests but we watched some Succesions as I was massaging her hands. It felt a bit more intimate but very PG. When I left and she walked back with me to the which was on the street away from the house, we hugged and kissed for a bit longer. I don't know but maybe she was more conscientious with what she said her mother being home, the first time I was in her room, lights and all. 

I wouldn't say I felt weirded out by her room, it just had a certain childlike quality to it everything from the size, furnishings, and toys. @poppyfields as far as not being intimate regarding sex, are you saying her restraint is an indication of lack of interest? I can say that while I was with her in her room I felt a lot of desire both mentally  and physically but didn't do anything beyond the kissing and light hand massage because I didn't want to make her uncomfortable? Should I have been more direct? I thought it was appropriate to go as far as I did unless invited to go further. I did ask if she wanted that full massage we had talked about in the week prior and she declined. We are after all entering our mid 30s and probably better able to control impulses. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by dragonwalker

[poppyfields]

30 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

@poppyfields as far as not being intimate regarding sex, are you saying her restraint is an indication of lack of interest? I can say that while I was with her in her room I felt a lot of desire both mentally  and physically but didn't do anything beyond the kissing and light hand massage because I didn't want to make her uncomfortable? Should I have been more direct? I thought it was appropriate to go as far as I did unless invited to go further. I did ask if she wanted that full massage we had talked about in the week prior and she declined. We are after all entering our mid 30s and probably better able to control impulses. 

Yes it's a lack of physical and sexual attraction.  She may still be interested but in what respect?  A good close friend?  Someone to hang out with and do things with?  

Being interested is very broad, and does not necessarily mean she's sexually attracted which is what differentiates a romantic involvement from a friendship.

Again, it does NOT mean sexual intercourse, there are many other ways a couple can express sexual attraction other than that.

Nor is it about "controlling impulses."  There IS no reason why a 34 year old man and woman need to control "impulses"  and their sexual desire for each other after seven months.  Come on now.

30 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

I can say that while I was with her in her room I felt a lot of desire both mentally  and physically...

Can you share with us what indications of desire you felt?  You stated you were massaging her hand but didn't wish to escalate because you sensed it made her uncomfortable.  She turned down your offer for full body massage that you had previously discussed.

So what was she actually doing that would suggest to you she was sexually attracted?

I am now wondering if you have ever actually experienced dating a woman who WAS physically and sexually attracted to you? 

Because trust me, THIS is not it.  Not by a long shot.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by poppyfields

[dragonwalker]

59 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Yes it's a lack of physical and sexual attraction.  She may still be interested but in what respect?  A good close friend?  Someone to hang out with and do things with?  

Being interested is very broad, and does not necessarily mean she's sexually attracted which is what differentiates a romantic involvement from a friendship.

Again, it's does NOT mean sexual intercourse, there are many other ways a couple can express sexual attraction other than that.

Nor is it about "controlling impulses."  There IS no reason why a 34 year old man and woman need to control "impulses"  and their sexual desire for each other after seven months.  Come on now.

Can you share with us what indications of desire you felt?  You stated you were massaging her hand but didn't wish to escalate because you sensed it made her uncomfortable.  She turned down your offer for full body massage that you had previously discussed.

So what was she actually doing that would suggest to you she was sexually attracted?

I am now wondering if you have ever actually experienced dating a woman who WAS physically and sexually attracted to you? 

Because trust me, THIS is not it.  Not by a long shot.

 

 

 

 

@poppyfieldsI think there was a slight miscommunication. To clarify my meaning when I say I felt the attraction is in regards to my feelings toward her at that moment. As far as what she was doing to reciprocate those feelings was not much more than massaging my own hand. 

I've got to say you definitely do ask some painful questions like if I have dated a women physically and sexually attracted to me. I think it's good for me to confront the question. I don't think I've dating someone which I could tell was very enthusiastic but even I have to say there was at least some attraction as I've gone further in past relationships more quickly than I have now. Some might say that my view toward this is a sign of low self-confidence but I'd like those to consider that the weight of evidence suggests that I'm not the most attractive person and in a world of billions of potential mates someone probably thinks I'm like a Brad Pitt but the chances are low I will encounter this person because of who I am relative to peers. It's like the chances of finding ET life (joke). There is nothing physically wrong with me and I do what I can within my control to keep up appearances, diet and grooming but I think I'm average at best, probably somewhat below (this is by Western standards). 

What she has told me when I asked her directly about sex is that she doesn't believe it is a critical component of a relationship. In her professional experience she has said people use sex as an excuse when a relationship breaks down so her stated theory is that if a couple can exists past that than there are other essentials far more important. Before meeting her I did hold the popular  belief of the importance of sex in a relationship but in retrospect  I think I was holding the popular belief even though for me as a person on closer examination I have consistently been the type of practical person that beliefs things like attraction and sex have large components of lust and generally dissipate over time whereas a person's character, temperament and attitude have more permanence and by extension more importance in a relationship. 

Therefore through my interactions with her, I have changed my belief in the relative importance of sex and I am willing to wait until marriage for that. I am still struggling though determining other ways to meet that physical desire and hoping her definition of no sex before marriage does not also include other sexual contact. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by dragonwalker

[basil67]

3 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

Therefore through my interactions with her, I have changed my belief in the relative importance of sex and I am willing to wait until marriage for that. I am still struggling though determining other ways to meet that physical desire and hoping her definition of no sex before marriage does not also include other sexual contact. 

Given the current state of affairs, it's not out of the question that sex will be minimal or lacking in passion when you marry.  Will you be OK with this for the rest of your life with her?

I'm very much in agreement with @poppyfields that her actions are showing a lack of desire for you.  Or perhaps deep seated sexual hang ups?  Either way, the outcome will be the same. 

We do have posters here who want to wait until marriage, but they tend to be chomping at the bit to get to marriage and be able to have sex.  Just like how our grandparents (in the days prior to contraception) would have a brief engagement and then a wedding and a honeymoon baby.  Or a full sized baby born "premature".  Or a shotgun wedding.  There really seems to be a complete lack of sexual desire on her end.  

[dragonwalker]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Given the current state of affairs, it's not out of the question that sex will be minimal or lacking in passion when you marry.  Will you be OK with this for the rest of your life with her?

I'm very much in agreement with @poppyfields that her actions are showing a lack of desire for you.  Or perhaps deep seated sexual hang ups?  Either way, the outcome will be the same. 

We do have posters here who want to wait until marriage, but they tend to be chomping at the bit to get to marriage and be able to have sex.  Just like how our grandparents (in the days prior to contraception) would have a brief engagement and then a wedding and a honeymoon baby.  Or a full sized baby born "premature".  Or a shotgun wedding.  There really seems to be a complete lack of sexual desire on her end.  

@basil67Yes ok I think you are right. The amount of intimacy is disconcerting and I don't think I'm wrong to think the amount is unusually low. I don't like the feeling of what this might be leading to but I still want to have a conversation with her about the extent to what she feels about this so I still need some advice. 

Would it be insensitive of me to ask something like this:

1. We had talked previously about doing something more familiar (yes my exact word I used with her) before I came over this past weekend. I appreciate spending time with you in your room but I felt like you were holding back. I was trying to make you feel comfortable and I sensed some hesitation on your part when I asked if you wanted to do something a bit more intimate like a massage. We had kind of talked about this before but your rejection seemed a bit cold. What do you think about that?

2. I know awhile ago at dinner you said you didn't want to have sex until marriage and I'm ok with that but did I feel I may have misunderstood and maybe what you meant was no intimacy beyond kissing? Am I right or wrong about that? If she says I'm right and it literally means nothing beyond kissing than I'd ask why. If she says that she just means no sex than I'd ask what her hesitations are about and her "excuses" for not really wanting to come over to my place are.

I don't want to make this sound like an ultimatum but I think I'm ready to end this if she outright says I'm not attracted to you that's why she doesn't want to or she has no desire. I would say that if she said she did have desire, did want to do more but not up to sex but that she's holding back for some really good reason I can't think of then I suppose I might be able to understand that. 

Am I being unreasonable here? It's been nearly 6.5 months and here is where I'm at. Something else I remember asking that really hurt as well. I had asked her the other night over at her place that I'd been thinking of maybe taking a short weekend trip somewhere just the two of us and maybe we stay and visit. The first thing she said was let's look at our schedules since we are both busy. It kind of hurt hearing that and it hurts a bit now. Not sure what to make of that?

Do you think what I plan to ask makes sense and do you think doing it over the phone is the best way? 

    

[basil67]

36 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

@basil67Yes ok I think you are right. The amount of intimacy is disconcerting and I don't think I'm wrong to think the amount is unusually low. I don't like the feeling of what this might be leading to but I still want to have a conversation with her about the extent to what she feels about this so I still need some advice. 

Would it be insensitive of me to ask something like this:

1. We had talked previously about doing something more familiar (yes my exact word I used with her) before I came over this past weekend. I appreciate spending time with you in your room but I felt like you were holding back. I was trying to make you feel comfortable and I sensed some hesitation on your part when I asked if you wanted to do something a bit more intimate like a massage. We had kind of talked about this before but your rejection seemed a bit cold. What do you think about that?

2. I know awhile ago at dinner you said you didn't want to have sex until marriage and I'm ok with that but did I feel I may have misunderstood and maybe what you meant was no intimacy beyond kissing? Am I right or wrong about that? If she says I'm right and it literally means nothing beyond kissing than I'd ask why. If she says that she just means no sex than I'd ask what her hesitations are about and her "excuses" for not really wanting to come over to my place are.

I don't want to make this sound like an ultimatum but I think I'm ready to end this if she outright says I'm not attracted to you that's why she doesn't want to or she has no desire. I would say that if she said she did have desire, did want to do more but not up to sex but that she's holding back for some really good reason I can't think of then I suppose I might be able to understand that. 

Am I being unreasonable here? It's been nearly 6.5 months and here is where I'm at. Something else I remember asking that really hurt as well. I had asked her the other night over at her place that I'd been thinking of maybe taking a short weekend trip somewhere just the two of us and maybe we stay and visit. The first thing she said was let's look at our schedules since we are both busy. It kind of hurt hearing that and it hurts a bit now. Not sure what to make of that?

Do you think what I plan to ask makes sense and do you think doing it over the phone is the best way? 

    

Her actions are telling you that she's not hot for you, so you already have the answer  - you just don't want to believe it.   I strongly urge you NOT to have the conversations you've proposed.   Just make your decision based on whether or not you're getting your needs met now and the likelihood of getting them met in future.

As for the questions themselves, they are unclear and convoluted... and will only lead to more confusion.  If you really must talk about this with her, be direct.  Don't talk about how you think she feels, ASK directly her how she feels.  Don't be afraid to state how you feel.   If you don't understand her response, clarify.  

Again, if you must talk about it, the massage question doesn't need to be asked yet.  Instead, you need to start with your second question regarding her views about sex before marriage.  Say something like 'I understand that you don't want sex before marriage.  What kind of physical touch are you comfortable with before marriage?"    If she says she's comfortable with massage, then you can open the massage conversation another time.   If she's not comfortable with massage, question one becomes redundant and you need to tell her what YOU want in the relationship and see if there's any similarity.  

One thing which is coming across very strongly here is that you seem to be tiptoeing around her.  I think that your fear of upsetting her is why you're constructing such elaborate questions.   It's like you're terrified of upsetting her and losing her.   May I suggest you find your confidence and self worth?  Work out what YOU want and don't settle for less. 

 

[ClearEyes-FullHeart]

Maybe she is asexual (and either knows it or perhaps doesn’t even know it yet)?

Agree with Basil Re just focus on the crux of the issue and not bring up the massage again etc. I would speak to her in person not on the phone, which I think would be more awkward and you won’t be able to read her body language and vice verse.

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, dragonwalker said:

 

Do you think what I plan to ask makes sense and do you think doing it over the phone is the best

You've been dating 6 months, this is a face to face conversation.

I've never understood why men think offering a massage to a woman they've never been intimate with is such a good idea. I'm no prude and l hate being offered a massage if we've never been intimate. You are not at the stage of feeling each other out...forget about the massage for now.

Not being introduced to a family member would have rubbed me the wrong way. Your gf is not a kid anymore, she's a grown woman who should have better manners.

i fail to see why you hang around that woman. I think you do because she's a doctor and that values you somehow because we now have 3 pages of things you find weird about her or things you'd like she changes.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Gaeta

[poppyfields]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Her actions are telling you that she's not hot for you, so you already have the answer  - you just don't want to believe it.   I strongly urge you NOT to have the conversations you've proposed.   Just make your decision based on whether or not you're getting your needs met now and the likelihood of getting them met in future.

As for the questions themselves, they are unclear and convoluted... and will only lead to more confusion.  If you really must talk about this with her, be direct.  Don't talk about how you think she feels, ASK directly her how she feels.  Don't be afraid to state how you feel.   If you don't understand her response, clarify.  

Again, if you must talk about it, the massage question doesn't need to be asked yet.  Instead, you need to start with your second question regarding her views about sex before marriage.  Say something like 'I understand that you don't want sex before marriage.  What kind of physical touch are you comfortable with before marriage?"    If she says she's comfortable with massage, then you can open the massage conversation another time.   If she's not comfortable with massage, question one becomes redundant and you need to tell her what YOU want in the relationship and see if there's any similarity.  

One thing which is coming across very strongly here is that you seem to be tiptoeing around her.  I think that your fear of upsetting her is why you're constructing such elaborate questions.   It's like you're terrified of upsetting her and losing her.   May I suggest you find your confidence and self worth?  Work out what YOU want and don't settle for less. 

 

Wow, that was well said basil. 

And OP, you might want to consider that your actions of "tiptoeing" as @basil67 said or put another way "walking on eggshells" is what is actually preventing her from feeling a strong sexual attraction towards you. .

It reflects a lack of confidence and weakness and women do NOT get hot for weak men who are too scared to be strong and directly state what they need, want and desire.

Not in an arrogant way but in a strong confident way. 

YOU lead. Either she will have the desire (sexual and otherwise) to join you on your journey or she won't. 

Don't be afaird to lose her, she WILL sense that (probably has already) and it will push her away emotionally and since most women's sexual desires stem from their/our emotions, she will feel nothing as she doesn't now.  Clearly. 

What I'm saying is what you're doing to draw her closer is doing the opposite - causing confusion and ambivalence and preventing her from fully connecting with you emotionally, physicalIy and sexually.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by poppyfields

[dragonwalker]

Ok, I see I thought some of you might suggest doing this in person. It's just that her birthday is late this week and we had made some plans to go somewhere and I hate to bring up a somewhat unpleasant topic. Maybe I can bring it up at the end. @Gaeta one thing to remember about these forums is the very nature of it is subject to heavy confirmation bias in that people aren't coming on here sharing about how rosy their experiences are, I presume people come on here to discuss their issues and questions so yes I'm not surprised by the fact you see postings about things people have issues with or questions about. I'm just trying to navigate through this the best way I can so that's why I ask for presumably good intentioned people with some other perspectives.  

Edit* I didn't see @basil67 post before posting. You make some good points. I thought I was very direct the first go around about a month ago asking her about the issue of sex. I didn't think it would now lead to questions even about touch. I do want to talk to her about it as I think making the choice now without further input will have me wondering more about if I have made the right choice. I like the way you put the question about what kind of physical touch before marriage is acceptable. I am unclear about it and the answer could help make a choice for me. 

If I did want to speak to her, should I do it in person or is over the phone acceptable? The next opportunity I would see her would be kind of in celebration of her birthday and ironically Valentine's Day where I would be brining roses (lol since that is one of the things) she asked for and this somewhat conversation would happen at the end of the day. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by dragonwalker

[basil67]

15 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

Ok, I see I thought some of you might suggest doing this in person. It's just that her birthday is late this week and we had made some plans to go somewhere and I hate to bring up a somewhat unpleasant topic. Maybe I can bring it up at the end. @Gaeta one thing to remember about these forums is the very nature of it is subject to heavy confirmation bias in that people aren't coming on here sharing about how rosy their experiences are, I presume people come on here to discuss their issues and questions so yes I'm not surprised by the fact you see postings about things people have issues with or questions about. I'm just trying to navigate through this the best way I can so that's why I ask for presumably good intentioned people with some other perspectives.  

It's waited this long, so leave it till after her birthday.  This is not a conversation for the phone or for the end of a birthday celebration.

We understand you're navigating through and we're all here to help you.  Most of us bumble our way through life and learn as we go.  You'll find that a lot of our advice comes from the learnings we've had in the past.  None of us here are perfect with perfect choices all the way through

[dragonwalker]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's waited this long, so leave it till after her birthday.  This is not a conversation for the phone or for the end of a birthday celebration.

We understand you're navigating through and we're all here to help you.  Most of us bumble our way through life and learn as we go.  You'll find that a lot of our advice comes from the learnings we've had in the past.  None of us here are perfect with perfect choices all the way through

Thank you @basil67 some of the advice is hard to hear but I am still glad I did it. No matter how well or badly this turns out I would have learned something I didn't before. I will wait till another time after this weekend to bring it up in person. I am at least glad and grateful that I do feel joy at having an opportunity to see her and I know she does as well so it can't all be a bad thing if only for a moment I forget that there ever was a problem.  

[basil67]

I want to take another angle here.   I'm wondering what she does to show that you're important to her.  

For example, does she actively seek out your company?  Does she ever do thoughtful things for you?  Does she ever plan outings or meals?  Does she ever pay?   How often do you make each other laugh?   Does she share her feelings?  Does she ask about yours?  Does she care about what makes you happy, sad or frustrated?

 

[Gaeta]

54 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

people aren't coming on here sharing about how rosy their experiences are, I presume people come on here to discuss their issues and questions so yes I'm not surprised by the fact you see postings about things people have issues with or questions about

I'm not sure why you interpreted my post this way but it's alright.  Of course people come on here to speak about their issues but when the negative outweighs the positive, as it seems to be here, yes people will probably ask you why you're holding on to it.  

[dragonwalker]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

I want to take another angle here.   I'm wondering what she does to show that you're important to her.  

For example, does she actively seek out your company?  Does she ever do thoughtful things for you?  Does she ever plan outings or meals?  Does she ever pay?   How often do you make each other laugh?   Does she share her feelings?  Does she ask about yours?  Does she care about what makes you happy, sad or frustrated?

 

@basil67Yes, she does seek my company as she does ask about the next time I am able to see her. She was the one who mentioned we don't see each other often and suggested calls and facetime which we started and work out quite well and we do end up talking for hours. She does do thoughtful things like when we exchanged gifts during the holidays she seems to have gotten a present that really matches what I like and what I talked about. One particular thing that stood out was after many months of knowing her and asking if she could play some piano for me since she really is a talented pianist she had not done it but then on the occasion of her coming over to my mother's home both she and her mother had prepared some music to play. It was so beautiful and she was so beautiful playing it and I felt so happy.  

At least in the last 4-5 months when we go out she seems warm and friendly, she laughs at my jokes, she asks about me a lot and she shares her opinion about different things as well which I often find compelling and strikingly similar to mine in style and substance. She does share her feelings but more often after I ask her specifically how she feels about something. She is a pretty positive person and likes to think the good in others and in situations and even tries to minimize her own issues or problems. On most occasions if she mentions something somewhat unhappy going on I would have to ask her directly about it to share.  She actually plans a good deal/majority of outings since all of the visits have been near her so she knows the food and sites. I would say she has paid for about 1/4 of the things. She's cooked for me in her home on several occasions and cooked things I've mentioned liking at restaurants we've eaten. She's been willing to play a 4-5 hour board game with me when it's not necessarily her most favorite thing to do and offered to do so again. She seems interested in my company and wants to be with me.  

A big one is I appreciate when I'm with her I feel like our attention is focused on each other as she so rarely takes out her phone and both of us rarely call or text when we are together. She is always kind and gentle. Neither one of us are particularly passionate people but I think that is exactly another thing we appreciate about each other because we relate that way. We find we share a lot of silly things in common about how we are both usually thrifty for instance the other night we shared a good laugh about how we both feel great using coupons or finding bargains. It's more a demonstration of how are values on spending and time are more aligned than say someone that really values physical possession or outward appearances. Myers Brigg if anyone cares, I'm a ISTJ and she is a ISFJ. Ironically both of us are actually leaning towards extroversion. 

Had it not been for all this talk about the physical part I think we are very well suited for each other. That's why I ask myself and others on here given the totality of the other things I love about her that can I reasonably overlook some aspects that are not truly bad in nature but make up a quirk of her character? Maybe it's just me being a guy but that's why I want to hold her and more and can't quite understand why she is so hesitant. Regardless of the questions I have about her I do think I am happier now than before I met her.  

Maybe there are other people out there like her in this way without the physical issue part but I've looked around for awhile and I've been found wanting.       

Edited February 7, 2023 by dragonwalker

[ZA Dater]

I have read through this thread again a lot of it hits hard for me. For context your GF sounds a lot like me and how I approached my recent "relationship" which ultimately ended in me being dumped. I hurt everyday because of this.

You need to decide if there is enough about her you like that over time you can try increase the level of intimacy, from my perspective she is probably VERY aware of this and either feeling some degree of pressure because of it or simply not able to emotionally process getting close to you in that way. People will say desire will overcome all, I disagree, people who are more thinking rather than emotional can hide desire and when they have it are unable to harness it affectively because they feel awkward.

Decide how much of a long term you see and whether you feel things can evolve, what I would say to your GF is for her to be aware she has a great guy and to appreciate what she has and to try and overcome the awkwardness, shyness and to not overthink. .

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

@basil67

. I appreciate spending time with you in your room but I felt like you were holding back

Do you have your own place? It's unrealistic to expect someone who lives with family and whose parents are dropping in to expect them to get intimate or want massages, etc. in their bedroom.

You'll have to create more privacy and a relaxed atmosphere rather than confront her about not being sexual in a household full of relatives.

[Gaeta]

@dragonwalker: Thank you for sharing the good about her and this relationship, it gives us a better idea of your dynamic.

At 6 months dating I would start asking the real important questions like

1. When can you escalate this relationship to 2-3 dates a week ( in your introduction you said you only have 1 date a week). It's not much to build on. Does she have a spare room in which you could stay when you sleep over?

2. How long she wants to date before marrying.

3. How she views sex within a marriage

4. What type of intimicy she is comfortable to share with you before marriage. 

5. What happens once married, do you live all under the same roof with the aunt? How do you feel about that. 

I think it's time you see each other more. At 1 date a week you don't really get to know someone and it's not enough, for some women, to build enough trust for intimicy. 

[dragonwalker]

2 hours ago, Gaeta said:

@dragonwalker: Thank you for sharing the good about her and this relationship, it gives us a better idea of your dynamic.

At 6 months dating I would start asking the real important questions like

1. When can you escalate this relationship to 2-3 dates a week ( in your introduction you said you only have 1 date a week). It's not much to build on. Does she have a spare room in which you could stay when you sleep over?

2. How long she wants to date before marrying.

3. How she views sex within a marriage

4. What type of intimicy she is comfortable to share with you before marriage. 

5. What happens once married, do you live all under the same roof with the aunt? How do you feel about that. 

I think it's time you see each other more. At 1 date a week you don't really get to know someone and it's not enough, for some women, to build enough trust for intimicy. 

 

2 hours ago, Gaeta said:

@dragonwalker: Thank you for sharing the good about her and this relationship, it gives us a better idea of your dynamic.

At 6 months dating I would start asking the real important questions like

1. When can you escalate this relationship to 2-3 dates a week ( in your introduction you said you only have 1 date a week). It's not much to build on. Does she have a spare room in which you could stay when you sleep over?

2. How long she wants to date before marrying.

3. How she views sex within a marriage

4. What type of intimicy she is comfortable to share with you before marriage. 

5. What happens once married, do you live all under the same roof with the aunt? How do you feel about that. 

I think it's time you see each other more. At 1 date a week you don't really get to know someone and it's not enough, for some women, to build enough trust for intimicy. 

@ZA Daterthank you for the sentiment and the perspective. It's interesting to hear you relate to the type of person she is. 

@Wiseman2 Yes, I have my own place and I have invited her over on numerous occasions which she has declined. It's a bit of a running joke in that occasionally when bring it up she says somewhat jokingly how it's 2 hours away (she doesn't drive on the freeways) but in reality it's about 1.5 hour driving locally without traffic. About 45 using the freeway. I'm not exactly sure what her hesitation on this is other than the supposed distance but I have asked her directly if she would have felt pressured being here to do something she was uncomfortable with and she said she wasn't. She's even seen my place as we have facetimed and I've given her a digital tour of my place. I did leave open the possibility of me picking her up and sending her back as a possibility but then her sense of not being a burden is likely kicking in from asking me to do it). I did also try to address this in our last visit by suggesting a weekend getaway trip and her response was a bit lukewarm saying "we'll see since we're both busy , we can look at our schedules."

@Gaeta1.  This is very challenging due to the relative distance and her resistance of not wanting to come over to my area. I also have classes 2 nights a week and work to go with that. She also has these daily notes which take hours after her normal day to complete. We have made up for this in part with facetime chats which work pretty well.

2. No, I haven't brought this question up as it seems a little premature to me seeing as we are working out some issues as stated (unless you think differently). 

3. The only thing she has said about sex within a marriage is that she wants to hold off until marriage but nothing else specific. 

4. This is a question that I hope to bring up soon.

5. I have not asked her about this which I imagine is tied to question 2 about marriage. I have thought about this on my own and logistically it would probably make sense to live at her place. If this were the case, this would be challenging for work but doable due to me being able to work remotely 2-3 times weekly. In theory I could rent out my entire unit or sell entirely depending on specific financial circumstances. Regarding her aunt living in her home, I suspect this might be long term as my gf did mention her having some health issues. Not a big deal for me as in theory there is a room for everyone. 

One thing that we have both briefly touched upon and I have knowledge of is that she likely has over $1M in debt both from home and school. However I'm sure her income is probably quite high. Whereas I have no debt except for my home and I'm in the fortunate position of being able to pay off the mortgage if necessary but my income is modest.