Some suggestions for a slow moving relationship

[Gaeta]

54 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

No, I haven't brought this question up as it seems a little premature to me seeing as we are working out some issues as stated (unless you think differently). 

You don't make the question about you, you ask what is her take on it generally. She might say she thinks 1 year dating is enough, which could be viable to you. Or, she could say she doesn't see marrying under 2-3 years...would that be viable to you? 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Gaeta

[Gaeta]

50 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

The only thing she has said about sex within a marriage is that she wants to hold off until marriage but nothing else specific

So she avoided the question.

If l were you l would have hoped for an answer like sex/intimicy is part of bonding/connecting as a married couple.

Was she ever intimate with someone?

 

[Calmandfocused]

There is a thought that keeps triggering for me when I read your updates Op. The more I read the more I’m convinced of the below: 
 

I do not think your girlfriend is Heterosexual Op.  

I agree that she could be Asexual which would explain a lot but it think you should also consider the possibility that she might be a lesbian. 
 

Marry your girlfriend and you’ll be creating threads in the marriage section called “No intimacy in my marriage” or something of a similar ilk. Is that what you want? 
 

Alternatively a thread titled “my wife is more interested in dolls than me” may make an interesting read for us but it won’t be much fun for you as the person living it.  

If you’ve got your heart set on having children, I’d advise you set your heart on someone else. 

[dragonwalker]

3 hours ago, Gaeta said:

So she avoided the question.

If l were you l would have hoped for an answer like sex/intimicy is part of bonding/connecting as a married couple.

Was she ever intimate with someone?

 

@GaetaAgain I'm not sure what her timeline on marriage would be since I have not asked and I'm not sure we are at that point yet. I have a feeling in theory it's not something dramatically long. 

No, she did not avoid the question as my question at that time was just in regards to sex which she answered not until marriage but neither of us talked about other forms of contact. I don't know if she was intimate with anyone else before but seeing as she said she has always held this belief than my assumption is that she has not. Interestingly, she has been in a previous relationship before and said that sex was not an issue for the ending of the relationship. 

@Calmandfocused that's an interesting hypothesis. No way of truly knowing and I suppose that's part of the reason I'm here trying to get to the bottom of the intimacy question. I would tend to disagree as since she's a doctor she would have better understanding of why it's detrimental not to be honest about that. She's not religious and her mother isn't emotive at all so not sure why she would not be honest about such a thing. I think the more likely explanation is some aversion to sexuality. She did say she wanted more than 1 child if that's any indication. That's the other thing, her mother is a classically very outwardly conservative/modest person. To the point that in the several hours my mother spoke to her over 2 dinners, she did not once ask my mother or anyone else a question but did respond to questions. It's not that her mom was cold just very non-emotive and passive. So there is some strong element of social conditioning. I can relate to this a bit and for instance I seriously doubt her parents would have talked to her about anything about love, sex, etc. She even said herself in her house they never hugged or said I love you. I don't know what her relationship with her father was but her relationship with her mother doesn't appear to be particularly close based on how seldom she talks about her mother or other family.   

Edited February 7, 2023 by dragonwalker

[Els]

20 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

I don't want to make this sound like an ultimatum but I think I'm ready to end this if she outright says I'm not attracted to you that's why she doesn't want to or she has no desire. I would say that if she said she did have desire, did want to do more but not up to sex but that she's holding back for some really good reason I can't think of then I suppose I might be able to understand that. 

It's not unreasonable to ask, but I don't really see any point in this. Obviously, nobody who wants to maintain a relationship with you will actually TELL you that they aren't attracted to you. Regardless of how honest you think both of you can be with each other, I don't think you can reliably expect an honest answer to this.

It's not uncommon for marriages in our culture to not actually have a good sex life, even after getting married. After all, the culture is traditionally very collectivist - the needs of the many are more important than the desires of the individual. Naturally, personal desires tend to get quite repressed. And after a lifetime of repressing, not many people can easily learn to undo that and to live in the moment and feel their feelings.

I don't think there's anything she can TELL you that will indicate whether you will have a decent sex life after getting married or not. It just has to be a risk that you accept if you go down that route.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

 

@ZA Daterthank you for the sentiment and the perspective. It's interesting to hear you relate to the type of person she is. 

@Wiseman2 Yes, I have my own place and I have invited her over on numerous occasions which she has declined. It's a bit of a running joke in that occasionally when bring it up she says somewhat jokingly how it's 2 hours away (she doesn't drive on the freeways) but in reality it's about 1.5 hour driving locally without traffic. About 45 using the freeway. I'm not exactly sure what her hesitation on this is other than the supposed distance but I have asked her directly if she would have felt pressured being here to do something she was uncomfortable with and she said she wasn't. She's even seen my place as we have facetimed and I've given her a digital tour of my place. I did leave open the possibility of me picking her up and sending her back as a possibility but then her sense of not being a burden is likely kicking in from asking me to do it). I did also try to address this in our last visit by suggesting a weekend getaway trip and her response was a bit lukewarm saying "we'll see since we're both busy , we can look at our schedules."dest.     

   

This read like de ja vu for me, the difference is  I am here. I think the problem is she may not feel comfortable out of her own space, it was very much my feeling to some extent, yes I went over to her place but never stayed over, I kept trying to work out why I did not and I got so caught up in the whole thing that I missed the fact I was messing up the "relationship". My guess is she is not really that comfortable with intimacy, that is my issue what you can do is show a great degree of patience, your time line is very similar to what mine was, eventually at 11 months it all fell apart completely. You can try and make progress and maybe the best thing to do is communicate with her. Make sure though you do not pressure her because that will just make things worse. Chances are she is already feeling a massive degree of expectation and pressure.

The answer to all of this is probably in her history someone in the past may have made her feel like a lesser person which has affected her self confidence and sense of self worth, this might not be obvious but the lack of intimacy may suggest she is holding back due to a past experience, again this is largely based on my own experience.

I'd give it two months more and see if anything changes but try to get her to open up, I simply could not open up which was really the nail that ended it all. I also think if you end up ending it she will be very keen to try revive the relationship.

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately, yes you've tried everything including offering to pick her up and bring her back to visit your place. Trying intimacy at her place is of course off the table. So in this regard your beating your head against a wall trying to fix and change her into what you want.

Basically it seems like an impasse. You want premarital sex and she doesn't.

Combined with other observations of you don't think she dresses sexy enough, you think her interests and environment are childlike, eventually you may have to reflect why you're continuing to pursue someone this unsuitable for you and incompatible with you.

[dragonwalker]

Ok! There was a breakthrough! Over the past month we kept up our normal rate/level of contact. It was her birthday early in month and we spent most of a day together and it was fun, relaxing, and it felt great. My birthday was actually later in the month and that was more formal since both of our families went out to eat as a restaurant and it was nice. 

But the big breakthrough came about yesterday. I had wanted to address the physical intimacy issue again and I brought it up again in the car on the way back from a day we spent together. I felt we had a much more deeper talk that cut through a lot of the superficial stuff and got to the heart of the matter with intimacy. Essentially we are just so alike in that we each wanted more but then not seeing a super obvious sign we were hesitant to ask for more. We talked about the various time I thought I tried to make an attempt of greater intimacy and she basically said that she never stopped me, which is true except with the lack of more possible affirmation I think I stopped myself from doing something overtly sexual. The power of the rejection in my head is just that powerful for both of us. 

We really opened up about our feelings and a lot about the physical. She snuggled up as much as she could in the car. We just hugged, kissed, talked and I got more intimate with the touching but nothing real racy as I was literally parked along the street. One of the things we talked about was her conservative views and when mentioning examples I mentioned clothes and she did mention something about how she didn't want to draw attention at work. I said we aren't at work but I wonder if maybe something uncomfortable at work in her past happened and now outwardly she is much more conservative. Anyway she and I just expressed how we both wanted to see each other, be with each other. I told her I wanted to sleep with her but would respect her wishes. She even said we can do other things together which was the first time she really mentioned it. I was beginning to think she had no idea about it but like myself knowing much more than I let on sexually I think she and I just have that same fear about revealing or talking about the sexual. Not sure exactly where it comes from but yesterday so many of the barriers came down. 

And, even before this date she had said she'd like to come over to my place and after yesterday I contacted her to make some plans this weekend and she said sure. She and I had talked yesterday about just being together on bed we can cuddle and do other stuff so it's like for me this light switch went off about her sexuality. She said she wasn't sure about how I felt about her sexually and for some time now I have felt so much more attraction to her. We're making plans and interestingly as I had thought of some plans of things to do she had in mind what I had mentioned months ago was maybe make some food, watch a movie and be together.  

I personally felt really fantastic after the night. In practical terms not that much happened but I felt emotionally there was a positive breakthrough. We told each other we loved each other and I see her as someone I could potentially start a family with. She said a lot of things that no one outside of my family had ever said before and that she said for the first time and it felt genuine and so real. Interestingly, somehow she knew I sometimes hold back emotionally as far as the more darker, insecure, or less happy parts about myself so that when I'm with her I can show and be the happy person I know that I generally am but what really felt touching that she asked for me to open up to her about those kinds of things. I think both of us try very hard to keep our time together happy because there is that sense of not wanting to burden someone and ironically it keeps us apart because it's like we both know we have a secret we can't share.  

It's so true because I think when we are together there is this happy time filter we have. It's not I'm pretending not to be who I am but I'm careful about framing things positively, avoiding talking about the the bad, stressors, etc. In retrospect the closest people I am friends with have all been people I have actually shared that with. I guess it's the being vulnerable part. There were a few moments I cried I think we both almost cried just about the mental suppression. I think we were in the car about 1.5 hours.   

Taking the day to digest this I think it's a positive development and I think it's one of the best things that could have come out of the conversation. Ok people, what are your thoughts? Let me have it! lol

[Weezy1973]

Excellent. Really. On all fronts. Congrats! 

[Gaeta]

It sounds all good! She's happy & your happy! There is nothing to be suspicious about. Try to spend more time together, maybe weekends away together, staying at each other's place for a few days. You really need to get to know each other on a daily basis if you're looking at marriage. Good luck. 

[dragonwalker]

Ok, so recently since the talk I had with my girlfriend in my car a few weeks back things have been going well. I think we’ve grown closer more emotionally and physically. She finally came over to my place and I think it was a success, we cooked, baked, watched a movie in bed, cuddled, kissed, and were really comfy with each other. Now keep in mind by comfy that’s definitely relative.

 

Even as we were together and she asked for that massage I said I’d give her I started to rub her neck and I felt comfortable enough to try and touch her under her clothes but she was resistant. We were kind of going back and forth in a playful way but in the end I could tell she didn’t want me to go any further than the lightest of caressing under her clothes. I didn’t touch her anywhere intimate even though I was motioning toward it. Interestingly, I didn’t know this but she wears 2 layers of pants lol and 4 layers of clothes. I got her to take off her top layer of sweater but there was another underneath and what felt like a t-shirt under. Anyway, she invited me over this past weekend and we ate and essentially did the same thing in bed except I think this time we were as close as we could be with clothes on.

 

I was fairly direct and asked her if she could take off her sweater as I was essentially reaching into her shirt rubbing her shoulder and she didn’t mind until I drifted further down. I asked if she was comfortable and she said yes but when I asked about more intimacy when we were together, she said she wanted a “commitment.” I half-jokingly said like marriage and she was silent but it felt like that was what she meant.

 

While we were together, we even talked lightly about marriage, having kids, and how she’d like to start a family sooner rather than later. She and I essentially agreed that was more or less our goal.

 

Here’s the thing, I feel like I really do love her but at the same time this is my longest relationship and most “intimate” where I think marriage is a very real possibility. The good news is I feel less and less the physical is an issue as I’ve seen a side of her that at least shows some much greater level of comfort than in all of the months prior. I kind of feel now actually that she might be less shy and more like wanting to be careful about sharing the intimacy. She said herself that she wants a commitment. She even asked me I should stay over sometime. I’m glad she suggested that and it could work out since I have a few days work at home each week. Although she literally would need a new bed as it’s a single and it’s barely our shoulder width lying down.

 

Anyway, I consider myself a pretty rational and practical person and personally I’m pretty inclined to entertain a real commitment like marriage sooner rather than later. On the other hand I never thought I’d be saying this but am I rushing into things? We have been seeing each other for about 8 months now roughly about once a week so as far as time actually together not THAT much. There is also the matter of being slower than most in some aspects of our relationship.

 

Considering the fact we have both kind of lightly talked about the idea what’s a way to bring it up so it’s not so transactional? I’m thinking it’s probably a good idea to try and start to stay over at her place first. I’m thinking I might be thinking to “logically” about this and that I should put aside the direct conversation of how exactly something like marriage should happen and have it happen the “natural” way. However, we are both are very rational people and in some ways I kind of feel like laying some concrete ground work might not be a bad idea or would that kill the mood? What do people think?

 

I think another aspect of all of this is the desire to have a family while both of us are 35 so it’s getting to crunch time. I’m trying not to have this aspect guide my behavior but my practical mind just keeps going there. My practical mind is itching at planning out the nitty gritty like what our potential finances would look like, logistics of work, children, child care, commute, etc. I know it sounds weird but my mind works in these ways sometimes.   

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, dragonwalker said:

am I rushing into things?

For most people, I’d say yes a bit, but in your case I think it’s different. You are very realistic and rational. For most people when they rush things it’s because they’re acting impulsively when hormones are rushing around in the early stages of a relationship and they look at their partner through rose coloured glasses. But you’re certainly not doing that and I’m not sure you’re even capable of acting impulsively. 
 

You have to consider what are the chances of meeting a woman that’s more compatible with you than this one. I suspect the chances are very slim. And yes age is a factor when considering having kids. So for practical purposes it does make some sense to move a bit quicker. Sexually, it sounds like she has traditional values wanting to wait at least for a commitment if not marriage. As always the best thing to do is communicate openly and honestly. I’d usually recommend living together before committing but I’m not sure that practical in your case. Just be mindful that many marriage problems are actually living together problems. Different ideas of cleanliness levels, keeping things tidy, putting the lid of the toilet down after using it etc.  

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

. I kind of feel now actually that she might be less shy and more like wanting to be careful about sharing the intimacy. She said herself that she wants a commitment. 

It's good it's moving forward. She seems clear on how much and what types of premarital intimacy she is comfortable with. She may be shy, but conservatism has always been the driving force.  Instead of planning bed purchases, marriage, children, finances  logistics of work, child care, commute, etc. Try to focus on building trust and intimacy.  

[Gaeta]

You need to spend some real time together for the rest of the year and you could plan a marriage for 2024.

I really think you should not share a same bed if you stay over. She doesn't want sex before marriage so don't put yourself in situations where she'd do something under the heat of the moment and then she'd regret. 

Thinking marriage means you have to show everything to each other, your revenues and debts. Marriage will melt your finances so you got to know what you're getting into. 

Keep us posted! 

[dragonwalker]

So wow yesterday I went to visit her after work. It felt so relaxed as I came by for dinner that she had prepared. Her mother was there but didn't join us as she had already eaten but sat nearby within earshot. I just talked and laughed with her. Afterwards we both decided to go upstairs to her bedroom where we just watched some funny videos and talked. We got a bit more comfortable and we started kissing, cuddling, and this time around she let me take off her top while we were kissing and just being close. It felt so comfortable emotionally and she didn't really seem nervous at all. 

She was composed enough to basically ask if I felt closer now, got me to commit to respect her limits, and basically was asking for marriage "relatively soon" before really going further.  It was pretty fun and playful and I think we got pretty into it. I joked about other intimate things we could do and she didn't respond either way. She did mention she has "trust issues" and I tried to ask if she'd been hurt before and she didn't really respond. She was in her bra and yes we were pretty intimate. I totally lost track of time and it was late when I left. All the while her mother was downstairs with her aunt that I have yet to be introduced to. 

She was the first one to suggest last time I visited that I could leave things at her place and stay over. Coincidentally she had said due to a family friend coming in the next few months she was planning on buying a new bed. When I brought up staying over we were talking some logistics and it sounded as if she was totally open with me staying overnight with her. It would be harder work wise for her to come to my place but I did offer. 

@GaetaRegarding what you said about not recommending sleeping in the same bed with her, here's the thing. I know I could never force myself upon her but if she were open to sex I'm not entirely sure I would resist. By being together in the bed my goal is not to have sex with her but really just to be closer to her. When we are together she makes me feel special and like a protector (cliche I know). I just don't see the point sleeping in separate rooms, it's so cold and distant. What do you think about talking about talking about it before hand like literally saying I'd like to sleep with you and we will agree not to have sex? I think this avoids the situation of her being hurt if I manage to resist and "reject" her. 

She is really quite keen because after she had her top off she flat out addressed one of the concerns I don't think I vocalized about her not wanting to be with me physically so it was almost as if she was proving a point. 

Anyway, for those of you that have gotten this far I have another thing that I'm not sure how to address. Being the person I am that loves history and militaria I have a collection of firearms (4 of them to be exact). They are 20th century firearms (not the modern "black" plastic ones). I rarely use them at the range. I'm talking about it's been 3+ years since I've even used them. I got 2 firearms years ago because there was some interesting history behind them, 1 of them 10+ years ago as a beginning learning firearm, and 1 for self defense). The firearms really aren't a part of my identity, I got them because I thought they were cool and interesting but they mostly sit around collecting dust. I don't just sell them outright because I think they could be useful for a just in case SHTF situation. Now, I really have no idea how my girlfriend would react to me having them but I have a strong feeling it would at least be surprise and perhaps some concern. At this point it's an item I am mentally aware of and have not brought up thinking it might scare her. What's the best way to approach this? Since I think there is some utility having them I would really want to keep them but I could be persuaded to sell them if she was just adamant I had to. Yet, I don't want to simply cave in on such a request. I think it's more likely if she really felt bad about them she probably would sooner not tell me to get rid of them but move further away from me, I'm not sure. I thought about casually suggesting maybe going to the range which would lead to questions about why and I could spill the beans that way. I think it would be awkward to just say hey I have these, what do you think?     

As a women who only lives with other women she's talked about things that make her concerned for her safety, things that men do not typically have a concern about. The last thing I want to do is create that anxiety with her. The only inkling I have about her attitudes about firearms is that there was a mass shooting recently near her home and when we drove down the rode and would have passed by the location it she asked we drive another way. This is a very casual connection but I thought about it when considering about how she might react. I know for instance when she came to my home she was being curious and looking around everywhere and asking about this or that like what's behind this door or that door. I was very open about it. My firearms were not out in the open and unseen but I think she was wanting to know about me. Not sure if this is just me making a big deal out of nothing. I'm sure attitudes on here may be different but maybe some perspective about how to handle this from people who are really against firearms and those that aren't would be helpful. 

I'm trying to imagine how I would react if she had something of similar ambiguity and I think I would probably judge her negatively about it. I know that's taboo to say especially in our "judgement free" PC world that is the truth. I've talked to my girlfriend and similarly to me she admit to judging things all the time that might not be the most PC.  

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

, got me to commit to respect her limits, and basically was asking for marriage "relatively soon" before really going further.   I thought about casually suggesting maybe going to the range which would lead to questions about why and I could spill the beans that way

Try to slow down to her comfort level especially with the family downstairs.

Do not ask her to go to a shooting range.  Way too dramatic and showy. Next time she's at your place, simply tell her you're a firearms collector, like she collects dolls. Don't turn it into a big political debate if it's not.

Make sure overanalyzing doesn't become your worst enemy.

[basil67]

 I'm Australian and so live in a culture which is mostly firearm free.  I understand the need for farmers to have firearms and appreciate it from a sporting perspective.   I am also a history buff and I love Western movies, so I can understand collecting historical weapons.  My stance would be that if you're not part of a gun lobby and these items are purely kept for historical reasons, I'd be OK with them....provided they aren't on display in my living room.  If you want them in your man cave, that's fine by me.

In short, if it's nothing more than a collection for you, I wouldn't over think it.

[Gaeta]

11 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

@GaetaRegarding what you said about not recommending sleeping in the same bed with her, here's the thing. I know I could never force myself upon her but if she were open to sex I'm not entirely sure I would resist. By being together in the bed my goal is not to have sex with her but really just to be closer to her. When we are together she makes me feel special and like a protector (cliche I know). I just don't see the point sleeping in separate rooms, it's so cold and distant. What do you think about talking about talking about it before hand like literally saying I'd like to sleep with you and we will agree not to have sex? I think this avoids the situation of her being hurt if I manage to resist and "reject" her. 

There is a world between laying on top of her bed all dressed and sleeping all night long in each others arms under the covers. 

To me you sound like a teen boy that nags his girlfriend just to peek at her breasts. She doesn't want sex or a certain level of intimacy before marriage, so be a gentleman and offer her that. Stop wanting a little more each time. Show her full respect. 

When I met my boyfriend we both agreed to not jump into bed right away and to concentrate on connecting. There was no laying down on the bed and half undressing. We kissed and held hands, we went out a lot,  and we worked on connecting. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Gaeta

[basil67]

@dragonwalker Have you ever had a good relationship?  One where the conversation is easy and getting to know each other happens without much thought at all?  Because I'm not sure you know how easy a good relationship can be

This whole thing you're going through sounds so awkward and uncomfortable...to the point where you're second guessing your every move.   What makes this woman so special that you keep wanting a a future with her despite her despite her being on a very different wavelength to you?   Honestly, it sounds like you've barely scratched the surface, let alone have enough information to decide if you want to commit to her.

[dragonwalker]

@basil67By a good relationship, I believe you are referring a partner, than no I have not, but I do know how a poor relationship feels like. In reality we are on the same wavelength on most things. I post about things on this forum that we are not so I do think there may be some confirmation bias from some of you who might have been following my posts from months ago when I started at a different place with concerns. I can see how the questions I raised might lead some to think of the relationship differently than I do.  

This last post is a good example, it's not that I'm second guessing my every move but rather a singular issue that I have a question about but because it's the one I mention, it's significance seems greater than it is. In combination with the fact I like to analyze situations, it definitely makes the issue seem even larger. We are definitely moving along more slowly than most. What does the fact that I feel more comfortable and open with her suggest at this point? Is it a sign of progression? 

I think the evidence suggests it is. Marriage has been on my mind as it has been a necessary precursor for me before having kids, so for me the purpose of meeting someone is not only compatibility but also children and thus marriage. In this way, her honesty about what she wants and my consideration of the future continuously builds upon developing that information you speak about to decide if marriage is the correct decision.  

Edited March 25, 2023 by dragonwalker

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

@basil67so for me the purpose of meeting someone is not only compatibility but also children and thus marriage. 

So you feel she may be good wife/mother material since that's your goal with dating? That's ok she seems to feel marriage is her end goal with dating as well.

The issue seems to be how awkwardly you two fit together during this courtship phase.

Are you from difficult cultures or religions or backgrounds? Or have different expectations about dating?   Or is the awkwardness because of more idiosyncratic personality traits (collecting dolls, living like a child in her room, etc .)

[dragonwalker]

@Wiseman2Yes that's correct I see the end goal of dating for me is finding a good partner to have a family. That is her goal as well. We are from the same cultural background and we are both atheists. I think the awkwardness on both our ends is idiosyncratic.  

[basil67]

3 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

@basil67By a good relationship, I believe you are referring a partner, than no I have not, but I do know how a poor relationship feels like.

By a "good relationship" I don't simply refer to a partner.  Thing is, one can have a partner but the relationship is poor due to being mismatched.  What I mean is to be with someone with whom you can communicate easily, where there is no confusion about how the other feels.  It's when you have no doubt about the needs and desires of each other and those needs and desires are matched.  It's fun.  It's easy.  It's relaxing.  

My thoughts aren't about confirmation bias.  While I'm sure you do have good times going on outings and playing board games, the issues which concern you reflect astoundingly poor communication between the two of you (and l suspect it's largely stemming from her side).  I understand that she's conservative, but even conservative women have desires and can communicate their feelings clearly.  Sure, they may not act on the desires, but the guy knows how she feels.  

Your goal is marriage and children.  What happens if you marry her and find out that she doesn't want or like sex?  Or if she does have sex, that she's not particularly interested?  Or that she never opens up and lets you in emotionally and you end up feeling like you're always on the outside?  

[Els]

 

On 3/24/2023 at 12:42 PM, dragonwalker said:

So wow yesterday I went to visit her after work. It felt so relaxed as I came by for dinner that she had prepared. Her mother was there but didn't join us as she had already eaten but sat nearby within earshot. I just talked and laughed with her. Afterwards we both decided to go upstairs to her bedroom where we just watched some funny videos and talked. We got a bit more comfortable and we started kissing, cuddling, and this time around she let me take off her top while we were kissing and just being close. It felt so comfortable emotionally and she didn't really seem nervous at all. 

She was composed enough to basically ask if I felt closer now, got me to commit to respect her limits, and basically was asking for marriage "relatively soon" before really going further.  It was pretty fun and playful and I think we got pretty into it. I joked about other intimate things we could do and she didn't respond either way. She did mention she has "trust issues" and I tried to ask if she'd been hurt before and she didn't really respond. She was in her bra and yes we were pretty intimate. I totally lost track of time and it was late when I left. All the while her mother was downstairs with her aunt that I have yet to be introduced to. 

She was the first one to suggest last time I visited that I could leave things at her place and stay over. Coincidentally she had said due to a family friend coming in the next few months she was planning on buying a new bed. When I brought up staying over we were talking some logistics and it sounded as if she was totally open with me staying overnight with her. It would be harder work wise for her to come to my place but I did offer. 

FWIW, this sounds fairly normal to me, considering the cultural context. When I lived and dated in Asia, I considered myself and the guys I dated to be quite "modern", but even then it was common to spend time in bed together for some time (think months, not hours or days, lol) before moving on to the "sex" milestone. I guess we are all products of our culture/upbringing moreso than we'd like to be - it's hard for me to imagine having sex with someone literally the first time you are alone together, even though I don't adhere to many other traditional expectations.

 

On 3/24/2023 at 12:42 PM, dragonwalker said:

 maybe some perspective about how to handle this from people who are really against firearms and those that aren't would be helpful. 

Firearms are quite taboo in East Asian cultures, as I imagine you are aware. There isn't really a hunting culture among their urbanites, so the vast majority of those who dwell in the cities there have never seen a firearm and never met someone who had one.

That being said, I think it would be okay to mention your old collection if it gets brought up. It's very likely that if you two ever do get married, she won't want guns in her house, though, so you've got to make a decision on that (as with other incompatibilities that you two have).

Edited March 29, 2023 by Els

[dragonwalker]

An update, over the last few months things have been moving along quite nicely. The two of us continue to see and talk to each other regularly. She’s been over several times but I still mostly go over to her place and stayed over and slept with her. We have not had sex and basically don’t plan to do so until marriage or perhaps an engagement, which is fine with me. I noticed that we can spend hours just together cuddling, kissing quite passionately, she can be quite affectionate. Surprisingly, she even said and did a few things while in bed that told me she’d “rock my world” after marriage, so that was a pleasant surprise. We have openly talked about engagement/marriage, some hints of a plan and even something concrete like an engagement by year end.  

Anyway, while we were together last weekend the random topic of secrets came up and I didn’t plan it and I was feeling comfortable, and I let her know about my guns. She took the information calmly and as I suspected she did not agree with having them. I thought it was a great discussion as she asked why I felt I needed one, compromises and precautions I could take. She spoke about the future tense and imagined a time we had children and the potential danger of firearms. I listened, agreed with many of her points and when we moved on from the topic we were at a point where there was still much time to decide but I was open to the idea of getting rid of them. However, I would prefer to have the option to have them but the truth is I would get rid of them if she really wanted.

It got late and she asked me to stay and everything seemed normal. The next day things were still fine and then suddenly 2 days after I told her I get a very serious text from her saying she had thought much about it and she is strongly against guns but she wanted to hear my thought. I offered to chat, when we talked via facetime I could tell she was behaving quite seriously and wasn’t in her usual friendly attitude. We talked about many of the same points and it was a brief conversation no more than 10 minutes in all and she ended up by saying she wanted to go to bed but said we would talk more later and I reiterated again that I’m not against the idea of getting rid of them.

Then for the next few days she got real quite and didn’t respond to a text I sent. I sent more 2 days later and I got short, several word answers without the usual emoticons or other pleasantries. She didn’t say anything about being upset or about the guns but when I asked how she was doing she said busy and tired and when I asked if I could do anything to help, she said “More no shows” (basically she hopes patients cancel) giving her more time to do her other work.

I haven’t spoken to her again since our short chat so at first I thought she might be upset about the fact I told her about the guns however I’m beginning to think maybe it’s just about her work in general. What I always found interesting was she doesn’t seem particularly passionate about being a doctor in a way I imagine someone spending so much of her life in school for it. When she talks about work it often about the very long hours which includes around 3-4 hours daily after work working on notes, heavy patient load nearly 28 patients daily, the sometimes odd behavior of people, and being tired. I feel terrible for her sometimes and I just want to make her feel better. She talks about going part time one day after she had kids.

I really did want to talk to her the other day and she’s always been willing to except given her slow texts and short answers I mentioned if she just wanted to rest that’s all right. She said that “I’ll rest”. I feel something has happened but I’m not sure if it really what I shared, work, or some combination of both.

We were originally planning for her to come over and stay over at my place overnight for the first time. I’m conflicted how I should approach the situation. Should I give her more attention? Try to call or ask what’s wrong or should I give her more space and let her reach out. This is the matter of finalizing the plans to come over Sunday but I just want to do what’s best. I was planning to simply call her tomorrow but maybe someone else has a better idea or something else to consider?