The problem with Boundaries

[hmmhmmm2]

The Problem With Boundaries

Have you been hearing a lot of people use this word lately? Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries.Of course you have. It seems as though this has become the pop culture phenomenon replacing tickle Me Elmos and Pogs.

Everyone raves about this concept or teaching, and how good it has been for their health. But is it really as beneficial as people say it is?

Well, first, let's start with the definition, or the general idea of boundaries. The idea is that you draw a line in the sand, so to speak, between you and another person. The definition that I often hear is that it keeps me safe while preventing evil from getting in.

One analogy I heard recently is if I'm on a playground, I build a fence, so that the playground is safe, but it doesn't prevent other kids from coming in.

But does this really work?

First, let's look at the Book “Boundaries, How to Say Yes, and when to Say No,” by Dr. Henry Cloud, PHD. So, this book is where most will refer to when citing their approval of the boundary concept. Even though it is labeled as a Christian book, and contains many biblical references, it is utilized by many non-Christian individuals, and even endorsed by many mental health organizations. Even 7Cups, a mental health chat-oriented chat room, uses it as a Self-Help guide.

In this book, Cloud demonstrates that individuals need to take control of their life by setting boundaries. He cites an example where one of his parishioners was annoying and draining him. So, Cloud explained that he had set a boundary, and told the parishioner to not contact him. When the parishioner asked for how long, Cloud told him 2 years. Can that really be held up as an example of love? Why not just talk to the man and explain your frustrations, perhaps limit the talks to once a week, or even once a month sitdowns?

Cloud goes on to explain that your boundary is all about who you are as a person. He tells his reader to never let anyone challenge your boundary. It's your boundary after all, right? It defines you as a person, so nobody can change you. Anybody seeing the problem here? This assumes that:

Boundaries are never bad, and you can't be wrong.

You are perfect, or at the very least you have a perfect understanding of who you are as a person.

In creating this dynamic, you essentially are saying you have standards and you will only let people in who live up to your standards. The problem? Can you even live up to your standards?

Let's move on to another distressing situation concerning Dr. Cloud. It seems as though the entire world is in love with his book, citing him as a genius. But actually, Henry Cloud is not the first teacher of Boundaries. In fact, his book was published in 1992. Just one year earlier, Anne Katherine, M.D. Published her own book entitled Boundaries, Where You End and I Begin. These two books are largely the same, except that Cloud's is littered with Christian references. Not only this, but the teaching was actually popularized in scientific fields in the 1980's.

Furthermore, in regards to Dr. Cloud, he appeared on the Dave Ramsey Show (a well-known financial guru in the Christian community) for publicity. He explains his teaching, but what I found alarming in this episode was when a married man called into the show. The husband explained his marriage problems and said his wife wanted a divorce. After a 5 minute phone call, Cloud then asserts that the husband should accept the divorce, and then both he and his wife should seek therapy—namely from him. Coincidence? If nothing else, this should set off the red flag alarm party. A marriage counselor should sit down with both parties and hear from both sides before even bringing up divorce, and that's just if you're secular. The very fact a Christian leader is encouraging divorce at all is mind boggling.

Let's look at another factor here. While it is easy to see a great many people praise the benefit they received as a result of implementing boundaries, it is predominantly the boundary giver giving such praise. But, have you ever looked at the targets of said boundaries? It is a shocking trail of betrayal and agony. You will find tales of divorce, broken homes, abandoned children. My favorite stories are the ones where people reach out to Dr. Cloud to question his teaching, and he simply blocks them. That means he has no interest in defending his position. In other words, he has no idea what he's talking about.

Let me break this down for you. Remember that fence analogy? It is meant to keep you safe. From what? Going out into the road? If you really wanted to, just hop the fence, or go through the gate. A fence just makes a bigger hurdle to climb in order to have fun, thereby making getting to the playground not fun at all.

In the same way, while you might find a temporary relief from the emotional toll someone was taking on you, inevitably you will be drawn towards guilt; because you have sabotaged a friendship. And that's really what this was about. More often than not, boundary givers don't want boundaries, they just want to end the relationship. This becomes evident when the boundary receiver reaches out for answers, only to be shunned without explanation. This is not love. This is cruelty.

Now, some of you are screaming: What about abusive people?!?! But let me break this down into categories.

People you call abusive and toxic.

People who are actually abusive.

Now, I think anyone in the right mind would say remove any physically violent person from your life. So, we can pretty much agree on number 2. If they raise a hand, yeah, give them the boundary of jail my friend. But more often than not, that's not the category that comes up. In my time with mental health wards and chat rooms, I found most people refer to abusive people as people that said something not nice to them, or said a bad word, and basically just did anything they didn't like. Now, if we're referring to an all-out bully who constantly chases you down to belittle you and won't stop—that's one thing. But again, this usually isn't the case. It's almost always tracing back to one specific story or two, and very rarely does the boundary giver actually tell the other person what's wrong. So when the boundary comes, most likely the boundary receiver will view it as a cutoff, and feel abandoned, and this will most likely cause you to feel guilty. And THIS is the big problem with Dr. Cloud. He tells his readers to not feel guilty. And yet, in most cases, you absolutely should, because a good friend has a responsibility to either work through issues, or at the very least give their friend closure.

And this is the problem with Boundaries.

[NuevoYorko]

The concept of boundaries is not a fad or new at all.  I'm probably one of the older people here.  It's always been around.

A person's boundaries don't have "targets."  My boundaries are MINE.  If you can't or won't respect my boundaries, we don't need to do stuff together.  

Honestly I didn't read your whole post here because there is nothing you could say to me that would back me off of my certainty that strong, healthy boundaries are among the most crucial aspects of good relationships of all kinds:  romantic, marriages, business, parenting, friendship, being good neighbors, and even the most casual of sexual hookups.  And if I'm interested in the Cloud fellow's teachings about boundaries (currently I'm not) I will read the book for myself.  

Edited December 26, 2022 by NuevoYorko

[basil67]

Yep, I'm old and having boundaries has always been a thing, though it didn't have a name.  It is simply about what we allow into our lives and what we choose to walk away from.   

Generally speaking, the amount of times I've needed a boundary has been extremely limited.  And for those rare few who who I've needed it for, my boundary was to cut them from my life because I did not want further contact with them.  No guilt felt - only relief. 

[hmmhmmm2]

38 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

The concept of boundaries is not a fad or new at all.  I'm probably one of the older people here.  It's always been around.

A person's boundaries don't have "targets."  My boundaries are MINE.  If you can't or won't respect my boundaries, we don't need to do stuff together.  

Honestly I didn't read your whole post here because there is nothing you could say to me that would back me off of my certainty that strong, healthy boundaries are among the most crucial aspects of good relationships of all kinds:  romantic, marriages, business, parenting, friendship, being good neighbors, and even the most casual of sexual hookups.  And if I'm interested in the Cloud fellow's teachings about boundaries (currently I'm not) I will read the book for myself.  

This is sort of funny, because in my post I explain that most people are using Cloud's version/teaching from the 90's, when it has been around for much longer. I just have a big problem with Cloud being passed off as the authority on Boundaries.

The other part if that you mention the word "healthy." For the most part, this is my issue - that most boundaries people have aren't actually healthy.

[basil67]

18 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

This is sort of funny, because in my post I explain that most people are using Cloud's version/teaching from the 90's, when it has been around for much longer. I just have a big problem with Cloud being passed off as the authority on Boundaries.

I've never heard of Cloud.  You might be surprised to know that lots of us (even those of us who have boundaries) have never read a self help book!

18 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

The other part if that you mention the word "healthy." For the most part, this is my issue - that most boundaries people have aren't actually healthy.

Who's to say that other people's boundaries aren't healthy?  Most people do what works for them.

[NuevoYorko]

16 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

For the most part, this is my issue - that most boundaries people have aren't actually healthy.

False.  Boundaries promote healthy relationships between people.  If my boundary is somehow a problem for you, you don't need to interact with me.  My boundary is here for MY OWN wellbeing.   

You don't have a grasp on the concept of boundaries.

[hmmhmmm2]

36 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

False.  Boundaries promote healthy relationships between people.  If my boundary is somehow a problem for you, you don't need to interact with me.  My boundary is here for MY OWN wellbeing.   

You don't have a grasp on the concept of boundaries.

I can't say for sure that yours are unhealthy, but what I can say is this: A father abandoning his children because he's frustrated - that's a bad boundary.
Ghosting someone who has been a friend for many years with zero explanation - that's a bad boundary, your friend deserves better.
Quitting work with a family to raise and no backup plan - that's a bad boundary.
Giving the silent treatment to your partner or family member until they learn their lesson - bad boundary, particularly when they really have no idea what the issue is.
Solid relationships are built on communication, and if you're just giving boundaries and ultimatums with no avenue for communicating what the actual problems are, then yes, that is absolutely an unhealthy boundary.

[basil67]

35 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

I can't say for sure that yours are unhealthy, but what I can say is this: A father abandoning his children because he's frustrated - that's a bad boundary.
Ghosting someone who has been a friend for many years with zero explanation - that's a bad boundary, your friend deserves better.
Quitting work with a family to raise and no backup plan - that's a bad boundary.
Giving the silent treatment to your partner or family member until they learn their lesson - bad boundary, particularly when they really have no idea what the issue is.
Solid relationships are built on communication, and if you're just giving boundaries and ultimatums with no avenue for communicating what the actual problems are, then yes, that is absolutely an unhealthy boundary.

A few of these examples aren't what the average person would term a 'boundary'.  

• A father abandoning his children is not a boundary
• Quitting work with a young family isn't a boundary
• Giving silent treatment isn't a boundary

When it comes to cutting people off with no further communication, that can happen if the ex-friend does something which is a total dealbreaker.  That's because, by definition, a dealbreaker is something that can't be remedied.  Or, in the case of one ex-friend, she burnt many bridges with her alcoholism, unpredictable behaviour and heading down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.  There's nothing a friend can say which will fix any of these things, so it's best to just walk away. 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by basil67

[hmmhmmm2]

I disagree, because as mentioned, even popular mental health websites such as 7Cups use Cloud's book as their way of teaching Boundaries, it's also widespread in religious circles, and it's the #1 bestseller on the subject, so while you personally may not have read it, the majority of people who utilize the teaching specifically utilize his teaching, and his very first example of a boundary is literally giving the silent treatment. In any case, to me, cutting contact and silent treatment are not far removed from each other either, and besides that, cutting off isn't a boundary, it's a cutoff. The term boundary by nature means limiting access, not severing it completely.

I am not accusing you of being in the wrong, but there's always 2 sides to every story, and while I know it's not possible, I always want to get both sides to the story.
It did not take long for me to find many accounts of people who were upset with "Boundaries," (specifically, they all mention Cloud's book), as having been given an ultimatum, abandonment, and all those things I mentioned. So, whether or not you think they are boundaries, many people do give this abusive behaviors as boundaries.

[basil67]

Can I ask why you're writing about all of this?  Are people cutting you off or placing boundaries on you?   

 

[hmmhmmm2]

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Can I ask why you're writing about all of this?  Are people cutting you off or placing boundaries on you?   

 

I lived in DFW Texas for a few years, 30 minutes removed from the church Cloud preached at at the time his book started spreading like wildfire. At least 10 people came to the church I was attending, basically devastated by his teaching and his behavior. Many of them having a broken family as a direct result of his teaching of "Boundaries." A few were just upset with him cutting them off from all communication. I vividly remember one guy who said he asked Cloud if he could explain more on how believed his boundaries to be biblical, and then that person was removed from the church for asking questions. This falls in line with many of the online accounts of those who were hurt by it. And, as mentioned, he is the most popular among those who teach the concept.

Edited December 27, 2022 by mlssufan01
word usage

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

 A father abandoning his children because he's frustrated - that's a bad boundary.

No one who understands boundaries would say that the above describes the enforcement of a boundary in any way.

2 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

Ghosting someone who has been a friend for many years with zero explanation - that's a bad boundary, your friend deserves better.

First, there are at least 2 sides to every story and I believe that the friend who dumped their friend gave the person ample opportunities to respect whatever boundary was being breached.   In any case, you have not described a person enforcing their own boundaries in either of these examples.

2 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

Quitting work with a family to raise and no backup plan - that's a bad boundary.

"Quitting work" is not a boundary.  

2 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

Giving the silent treatment to your partner or family member until they learn their lesson - bad boundary, particularly when they really have no idea what the issue is 

Giving the silent treatment for whatever reason is not a boundary.

2 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

Solid relationships are built on communication, and if you're just giving boundaries and ultimatums with no avenue for communicating what the actual problems are, then yes, that is absolutely an unhealthy boundary.

So far you've demonstrated that you don't know what a boundary is.  I'm not going to explain it to you since you are posturing here as if you're some kind of expert.  I will say that boundaries in established relationships have been communicated clearly, as have actual problems around said boundaries. 

If you're just talking about strangers who are trying to date, there is not any necessity to communicate anything.   When I was dating, I had boundaries and "red flags."  If a woman encroached on the boundaries or exhibited red flags that I knew were "no go" areas for me, I would be polite and try to find some common ground for finishing off our meeting pleasantly, but no explanations.

[NuevoYorko]

17 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

This falls in line with many of the online accounts of those who were hurt by it. And, as mentioned, he is the most popular among those who teach the concept.

No he's not.  Anyone who has been in any 12 step programs, almost any type of counseling, absolutely in family / marriage counseling,  dealt with co-dependency issues, abuse, etc. has learned to be very familiar with asserting boundaries for themselves.   This "Cloud" fellow has never even come up.

It's some weird church thing and has nothing to do with the skill of maintaining healthy boundaries for oneself, and respecting the boundaries of other people.

[hmmhmmm2]

3 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

No he's not.  Anyone who has been in any 12 step programs, almost any type of counseling, absolutely in family / marriage counseling,  dealt with co-dependency issues, abuse, etc. has learned to be very familiar with asserting boundaries for themselves.   This "Cloud" fellow has never even come up.

It's some weird church thing and has nothing to do with the skill of maintaining healthy boundaries for oneself, and respecting the boundaries of other people.

Just because you didn't experience his teaching does not negate the fact he is the most popular teacher of the concept. He sold 4 million copies. In fact, the top 2 bestselling books on boundaries are both by him. 3rd is Anne Katherine, 4th is MIke O'Neil/Charles Newbold, and 5th is Ian Black.

And while yes, technically speaking, he did bring his message into the church, and he identifies as a Christian, it is definitely utilized by non-religious folk and many mental health resources. As mentioned, a very popular one, 7cups, a nonChristian resource, literally uses his work as a workbook on their website.

You can say I don't know what a boundary is all you want, but I am saying these are clear things that the bestselling author of a book on Boundaries has utilized and encouraged as Boundaries. It would be better to say I don't know what teaching of Boundaries you learned, but the one that is most popular is the one I'm referring to.

[basil67]

 

33 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

You can say I don't know what a boundary is all you want, but I am saying these are clear things that the bestselling author of a book on Boundaries has utilized and encouraged as Boundaries. It would be better to say I don't know what teaching of Boundaries you learned, but the one that is most popular is the one I'm referring to.

The boundaries you cite are ones which someone you disagree with wrote.  So shouldn't that mean that you agree that the examples you gave aren't representative of what constitutes  normal boundaries?

To change my mind on what I wrote earlier, regarding the example of a father who leaves his family:  If this happened because they've been indoctrinated on some crazy theories about boundaries and he's no longer able to have a good relationship with them, leaving actually does become a boundary.  Once people drink at the well of crazy, they can't be reasoned with and sometimes you just have to leave.   

 

[Lotsgoingon]

If you can't say "no," then you can't say "yes." All boundaries means is a willingness to say "no."

No, I don't want to date you. No, I don't want to have sex with you. No, I don't like the way you tease me. No, I can't meet you for lunch.  No, I don't want to do crack with you. No, I have to go home to my family--I can't go bowling with you. No I can't talk right now because I'm in the middle of a project. 

You can't accomplish anything in the world if you can't set boundaries. You just become a pin ball in someone else's game. 

The flip side of saying no is that you empower yourself to say an honest yes. The ability to set boundaries and say no is what frees up time to hang with people you really want to spend time with, like a lover, like a child, like a close friend. 

Perhaps you might read about victims of abuse and how difficult a time they have saying no to people The trauma of being violated at a young age really undermines their ability to say no and have boundaries. This happened to a close family member of mine, who was violated as a young person. She did over decades learn how to say no, but it was a struggle. I mean a really hard struggle and until she learned to say no, she was often used by people, often agreeing to do things she didn't want to do with people she didn't want to spend time with.

If teachers didn't learn to say no, they could literally spend 24 hours a day "helping" people. And the next they would have 24 more hours of demands on them. 

For better insight, go and date someone who has weak boundaries. Trust me: you'll be running so fast. You'll feel so ignored for no good reason because the person without good boundaries isn't choosing to do something else. They are simply GOING ALONG because they don't want to say "no." 

 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

 

The boundaries you cite are ones which someone you disagree with wrote.  So shouldn't that mean that you agree that the examples you gave aren't representative of what constitutes  normal boundaries?

Exactly this. OP wouldn’t it be fair to say you don’t agree with Cloud’s writings about boundaries rather than the whole concept of boundaries? Clearly discarding boundaries altogether is going to be problematic. 

[hmmhmmm2]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Exactly this. OP wouldn’t it be fair to say you don’t agree with Cloud’s writings about boundaries rather than the whole concept of boundaries? Clearly discarding boundaries altogether is going to be problematic. 

I don't dispute this fact. However, as mentioned, he is the best selling author on the subject, and has the top 2, by a landslide. And as mentioned, his concept of boundaries is the one most often utilized - so while I don't necessarily disagree with boundaries altogether, the issue I have is that most people are utilizing his teaching, which, as I have seen it, are unhealthy boundaries, or as others have expressed, aren't really boundaries at all (from a standpoint of logic, in order for there to be such a thing as healthy boundaries, then it follows there must also be unhealthy boundaries).

Someone stated that they had to cut off a relationship because they deemed it toxic. So, what's stop stop an adult father from saying his family is toxic and abandoning them? Whether that be from some misconstrued idea of boundaries or if that's literally what he was taught to be a boundary. 

This is the crux of my issue: Many people are just saying boundary boundary boundary and attaching the word boundary to literally any action they take and calling it healthy, when it is anything but.

[glows]

You’re always going to have people who misappropriate words and manipulate concepts to their benefit, OP.

We can’t expect everyone to apply the rationale correctly. That’s why we have criminals, felons, misdemeanours, things like child support and an entire legal system in most countries to regulate people who can’t regulate themselves. 

Your choice is to continue associating with these individuals or avoid them and live your life differently. Find other social circles and communities that more or less mirror your beliefs. If this is a family member or someone close to you that you can’t easily dissociate from then YOU create appropriate boundaries for yourself using the concept correctly. You can’t change what others are doing or the way they choose to abuse or manipulate others or an idea. 

[Weezy1973]

10 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said:

However, as mentioned, he is the best selling author on the subject, and has the top 2, by a landslide. And as mentioned, his concept of boundaries is the one most often utilized

After doing a bit of research on him, he is considered a Christian writer and I suspect outside of Christians, he likely has very little following. There are chapters in his book that deal with boundaries and the Christian faith which most non-Christians aren’t going to be able to relate to. If you’re a Christian you likely are surrounded by people who are familiar with his book so it might seem like it’s everywhere. But prior to this post I’d never heard of him or the book. When I Google, “What are the best books about personal boundaries” his book doesn’t even show up. 

[Lotsgoingon]

The Christianity mentioned in Cloud's boundary books is so innocuous that he could just as well have left it out. In fact, I got the sense that Cloud went looking for Bible quotes to justify his main points--not the other way around. None of the Bible quotes is the least bit controversial or odd. 

I was pretty much an agnostic when I discovered Cloud's books on boundaries. The key part of the book is the examples of relationship conflicts and how setting boundaries would help--that's where the book more than earns its money. BTW: he has a series of these books and my favorite is "Boundaries in Dating."

Basically Cloud points out how we do not have to slip into hopelessness and helplessness because we are in conflict with a partner. We have some power, constructive power, even when a partner is acting in ways that offend us. And we can use boundaries to find compatible dating partners and not waste time on people we are going to be in major conflict with. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

OP, if you are interested in understanding why boundaries are important (both HAVING them, and also RESPECTING others') there are dozens of very simple examples you can find by Googling.

Communication is actually key in setting successful boundaries.   Here are some fairly normal examples of boundaries that people would use in relationships of various kinds:

“I’m not comfortable with this”

“Please don’t do that”

“Not at this time”

“I can’t do that for you”

“This doesn’t work for me”

“I’ve decided not to”

“This is not acceptable”

“I’m drawing the line at ___”

“I don’t want to do that”

[mark clemson]

I think there are healthy and unhealthy ways to establish and "defend"/enforce boundaries. No doubt some people with emotionally unhealthy behaviors (such as "ghosting") try to legitimize what they do in their own minds by labeling it as "boundaries". I haven't read this gentleman's book, but from what YOU write, it sounds like perhaps some of the techniques he presents might be on the less healthy side and so, in SOME cases, are giving some folks a way to justify/legitimize toxic behavior.

The implication that he took/reinterpreted others' work and is, essentially, grifting is not a shock as grifting (through various means) seems to be bigger than ever these days. Revising something by 10+% makes it legitimately yours according to US copyright law, and he's far from the first to do such things. The realm of "Pop Psychology" is full of this sort of thing. Humanity and society are not perfect, far from it, c'est la vie.

If you've realized his work and approach are not for you, good for you! You can use boundaries in ways that are healthy and work for you (or simply do something else).

Edited December 27, 2022 by mark clemson

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

 Many people are just saying boundary boundary boundary and attaching the word boundary to literally any action they take and calling it healthy, when it is anything but.

Everything has boundaries. It's a survival tactic even for animals. While popular self help authors and gurus like to think they' have reinvented the wheel, a bird in a nest or a dog marking it's territory is innate and these boundaries help them to survive.

Try not to worry about trending terminology. Know who you are and what is best for you. Since humans are social beings there's a sort of understanding about interactions and that again is a survival tactic and involves living together with people as well as defining yourself as an individual. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Wiseman2

[basil67]

6 hours ago, mlssufan01 said:

Someone stated that they had to cut off a relationship because they deemed it toxic. So, what's stop stop an adult father from saying his family is toxic and abandoning them?

If a man is in a situation where his wife is abusive and his children are complicit, he SHOULD walk away.   This is an appropriate boundary.