Bad and awkward third date. Benefit of the doubt? Salvageable?

[flogp189]

I (27m) started talking to this guy (25m) in early Nov. After a few text exchanges our convo dropped but he messaged me again after 2 weeks. We start dating early Dec.

Looking back on first date, I thought it was a little awkward, we didn't really have much common ground to relate with, but he started listing his availability for a second date before the first date ended. I thought he was cute, and he seemed at the very least interesting to get to know, so I figured let's go on a second date.

Second date comes, we get drinks, he invites me to his place, and we make out, go to second base, and cuddle. This was when I embarrassingly started to catch feels and became really interested in him (the cuddles were too strong, lesson learned).

Holidays roll around and we couldn't make plans for a third date until two weeks after. At this point, I was fearful that he would lose interest after so long, so I started texting him everyday in order to maintain some chemistry. He seems to generally be a bad texter and isn't super responsive, but we have at least 1-2 text exchanges a day.

Third date comes, I pick him up from his place to get ice cream. We make small talk in the car, but very surface level. There's a lot of dead air and awkward silence during the drive unless I filled the air with questions or statements.

We get ice cream and our conversations get a little more deeper/philosophical and I was trying to get to know him a lot more. In line, he notes how he's pretty tired (and had 6 hours of sleep). After ice cream, we decide to walk around the neighborhood. I try going in for an arm link as we walk and he sarcastically goes "Whoa, the arm link. Where's the consent?" I jokingly reply "Well, you're not pulling away so I hope it's okay."

I then ask if he's into any PDA and he says no, so I pull my arm back. We then talk about if there's a tolerable level of PDA for him and he jokes that the only PDA he's into is "showing my love to Jesus Christ." We then talk about how he used to be a devout Christian, and when I ask him at what point he stopped, he jokingly replies "When I couldn't pray the gay away." After walking around the block we both acknowledged how it sucks that the neighborhood is mostly closed, empty, and dead on a Tuesday night and we wish there was more stuff to do. Lots of small talk chatter that doesn't really go anywhere.

We eventually circle back to my car, and I ask if he wanted to do anything else, and I suggest parking up at a vista point and getting a nice view of the city. He's pretty shy and introverted and I wanted to use this as an opportunity to talk to him on a more serious/intimate level. He says he feels tired and wants to go home and sleep early tonight. As we get into my car he offers to take the bus back, and I insist it's fine.

On the way back, I ask if he wants to hang out at home or if he wants to just relax before bed, and he politely turns me down. There's even more dead air on the car ride back, with minor small talk sprinkled in. When I drop him off, I went into a mind scramble, and figured I had nothing left to lose. So I pulled a small $15 gift related to his interests saying "I know how you love X & Y, so I got you this. Just think of it as a late Christmas present." We go in for our goodbyes, he goes for a goodbye hug when I tried going for a goodbye kiss. The kiss caught him by surprise and he makes an awkward "oop" face.

On the drive back he texts me if I made it home safe. I say yeah and thanks for coming out again. He then replies back thanks for driving. I think he's uninterested, but is just being polite to me since I drove him. But I can see how this might be a mixed signal.

I felt pretty embarrassed and ashamed of how terrible this date went, and playing it back it felt to me that he was pretty uninterested in me and was simply looking to end the date early by saying he wanted to sleep in early. Date didn't even last two hours. First date lasted 2 hours, second date lasted 4.

I've told this story to a lot of friends and the opinion is mixed. Half say he just wasn't interested, and half say he just sounds incredibly awkward/shy. I initially was set on not texting him anymore since it felt clear that he was no longer interested. But when some of my friends pointed out that it was just maybe an awkward date, I started wondering whether to text him back and schedule a 4th date, playing it cool and pretending the 3rd date never happened. Or apologizing about how awkward the date was and asking if I can make it up to him (all my friends said DON'T apologize for anything).

Maybe I can give him the benefit of the doubt, dating on a weeknight can be exhausting/tiring for some people. It did surprise me how cold/uninterested he felt from the moment he entered my car, and looking back it made me wonder "if he was that uninterested, why even say yes to the third date? Why continue to engage in texts for the past two weeks?" I did see he was up pretty early this morning in our texting app, so maybe he really was tired.

I can confirm, that from my past two dates (and talking with a mutual friend), he IS pretty introverted and shy. It *is* pretty hard to get a read on him though, whether he's interested or not and a lot of what he does ends up feeling like mixed signals to me. I've gone with the assumption that "unless he says no or stops responding to you, assume he's still interested," but now I'm not too sure.

I don't want to completely give up on this guy if this is remotely salvageable, but I don't know if it is or what I would say to salvage it. I still haven't replied to him after he thanked me for driving. If I do text him, I don't know how long I should wait to.

Thinking more about this, and giving him the benefit of the doubt I was thinking of replying to him with:
"Hope you had a good time last night. I'm sorry if I came across a little too forward. I've enjoyed spending time with you and would love to go on a fourth date. Maybe something on the weekend so we don't have to worry about work the next day?"

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, flogp189 said:

he jokingly replies "When I couldn't pray the gay away."

I think he was trying to tell you that he is gay.  He's not interested in women.  You have nothing to apologize to him about so don't reach out.  If he's interested he will contact you.  It doesn't seem that he is interested.  You can do better.

Edited January 11, 2023 by stillafool

[Acacia98]

2 hours ago, flogp189 said:

 It *is* pretty hard to get a read on him though, whether he's interested or not and a lot of what he does ends up feeling like mixed signals to me. I've gone with the assumption that "unless he says no or stops responding to you, assume he's still interested," but now I'm not too sure.

Your current assumption is bound to lead to your getting hurt a lot.

If someone is interested, they will show unambiguous interest. There'll be no room for doubt. If you're getting mixed signals, assume he isn't interested.

This particular guy does not sound interested. Maybe he's been going along on the dates etc. because he feels flattered by the attention. But he's definitely not interested. Please stop reaching out to him. You're already feeling terrible. Persisting will only lead to more humiliation.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Acacia98

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, flogp189 said:

he IS pretty introverted and shy. It *is* pretty hard to get a read on him though, whether he's interested or not and a lot of what he does ends up feeling like mixed signals to me. I've gone with the assumption that "unless he says no or stops responding to you, assume he's still interested," but now I'm not too sure.

If he were shy he would have jumped at the chance to let you have his arm when asked, he didn't want that and wasn't shy about telling you so.  Mixed signals is a sign of low interest.  Interested people make it known.   Don't assume anything, go by his actions and words.

Edited January 11, 2023 by stillafool

[flogp189]

55 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I think he was trying to tell you that he is gay.  He's not interested in women.  You have nothing to apologize to him about so don't reach out.  If he's interested he will contact you.  It doesn't seem that he is interested.  You can do better.

Sorry, I'm a gay male (27m), just in case it wasn't clear.

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, flogp189 said:

Sorry, I'm a gay male (27m), just in case it wasn't clear.

That's ok. Everyone makes this mistake sooner or later. You're enthused, you want to keep the date going and unfortunately it just drags on. 

He seems a bit meh so maybe he's just the wrong guy, but keep dates briefer rather than stretching them out.

The reason is oversaturation. Along the lines of too much too soon. Let someone miss you and want more of you. End the date first. And keep them briefer in the beginning.

 

[poppyfields]

18 minutes ago, flogp189 said:

Sorry, I'm a gay male (27m), just in case it wasn't clear.

Thank you for clarifying that because the romantic dynamic between two men is a lot different from the dynamic between a man and a woman. 

My understanding of it anyway. 

For example, what's quoted below:

2 hours ago, flogp189 said:

At this point, I was fearful that he would lose interest after so long, so I started texting him everyday in order to maintain some chemistry.

In a male/female situation, I would have advised the woman to NOT do this.  

More texting especially when he's pushing back, would likely push him away, losing the chemistry.  Not maintain it or increase it.

During early stages, let him think about you and wonder about you, give him space to miss you! 

THAT is how you build chemistry and increase attraction, again early stages. In a man/woman dating situation.

TBH, I have no idea how it is with two men. 

Hopefully people with experience re gay relationships can help you, I just wanted to thank you for clarifying.

Good luck! 

Edited January 11, 2023 by poppyfields

[glows]

Slow down a little. You’re trying too hard. Just ask him out again and don’t read into it. If he’s slow to reply let him be slow. Some people take longer to warm up or get into the idea of texting. 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, flogp189 said:

Sorry, I'm a gay male (27m), just in case it wasn't clear.

Okay then perhaps he was shy about letting you take his arm in public.  IDK why he would be but give him the benefit of the doubt.  He isn't the one asking you out though.  Is he submissive?

[CaliforniaGirl]

2 hours ago, stillafool said:

I think he was trying to tell you that he is gay.  He's not interested in women.  You have nothing to apologize to him about so don't reach out.  If he's interested he will contact you.  It doesn't seem that he is interested.  You can do better.

I agree. He's trying to "make" himself be into it, but he just isn't. Everything the OP wrote shows this guy wasn't into it, so whatever the reason, you need to nope out, IMO.  

ETA: Oops! Reading is fundamental.  I didn't realize you're also a guy, OP. I don't know...every move has pretty much on you, OP. And he has pulled away, made faces and so on. It could be that he's not comfortable with himself, but either way, he isn't acting into it. I'd just not text or call anymore. Maybe he'll text you at some point in the future, who knows, but with all the rebuffs, I agree with stilafool's comment of "you can do better."

Edited January 11, 2023 by CaliforniaGirl

[Alvi]

Do you know if he ever came out? And if so, how long ago. Have he ever dated or had a relationship with other guys? Do you find that he is comfortable with his sexuality? It's like his brain is telling him that he likes men but his family and the Church expects him to like women. 

9 hours ago, flogp189 said:

I try going in for an arm link as we walk and he sarcastically goes "Whoa, the arm link. Where's the consent?" I jokingly reply "Well, you're not pulling away so I hope it's okay."

Better to ask and confirm if it is OK with another person before touching another person or making any moves. You never know how they feel inside at that particular moment. Not everybody is comfortable verbalizing their feelings. You probably don't want to be accused of being creepy or doing something that makes another person uncomfortable. Just because people are not saying "No" doesn't automatically means that they are saying "Yes." Better to ask "Are you OK if we hold each other's hands?" before grabbing someone's hand. 

 

9 hours ago, flogp189 said:

We go in for our goodbyes, he goes for a goodbye hug when I tried going for a goodbye kiss. The kiss caught him by surprise and he makes an awkward "oop" face.

This is why you should ask a person if they are OK with you kissing them before actually kissing them. I remember my very first internet date. It was horrible for so many reasons. But what most part that stood out to me was him suddenly shoving his tongue down my throat at the end. It was horrible, totally unexpected. I fled  feeling ready to cry. So, please, do ask doing anything physical with a person.

Maybe he didn't want to be seen in public holding hands with a guy. He sounds to me very unsure of himself. Maybe he is too shy or feels scared being with a guy. I can imagine how nerve-racking it could be if he is still in a closet or came out recently. It is probably not even about you at all but all about him being uncomfortable inside. He might be very inexperienced when it comes to dating.

Maybe try to go very slowly with him.  Don't rush him, don't push him into anything that he finds uncomfortable. Make him feel safe around you. And it is probably going to take a lot more than three dates for him to be ready to trust you. He is more than likely going to need a lot of reassurance of every step of the way. It is up to you to decide if this guy is worthwhile. You probably expected someone more experienced. On the other hand, we go out on dates to see whether or not we are compatible with this other person. You don't have to go out with him again if you don't want to. You don't have to justify it. End things politely if you are not up to it.

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Alvi

[ShyViolet]

9 hours ago, flogp189 said:

I've gone with the assumption that "unless he says no or stops responding to you, assume he's still interested,"

 

This is not a good policy.  If someone is really interested in you, you'll know.  You won't have to do all this over-analyzing and hand-wringing trying to make it work.  It will just flow naturally.  

Don't ever chase someone who isn't excited about you and who doesn't seem just as interested in you as you are in them.

9 hours ago, flogp189 said:

Thinking more about this, and giving him the benefit of the doubt I was thinking of replying to him with:
"Hope you had a good time last night. I'm sorry if I came across a little too forward. I've enjoyed spending time with you and would love to go on a fourth date. Maybe something on the weekend so we don't have to worry about work the next day?"

This sounds really desperate and like you're trying too hard.  Take a step back and see if he actually asks you to hang out again.  If he doesn't, you will have your answer.

[Ami1uwant]

7 hours ago, flogp189 said:

Sorry, I'm a gay male (27m), just in case it wasn't clear.

I woukd not assume you have bern exclusive. He might be seeing others.

 

if he is shy he might not talk much or know how to share feelings.  Did you ever talk about past relationships? He might not have had much experience.  
 

he could be not as interested.  this is always an issue early in dating and one of them go on a work trip/ vacation/family gathering over holidays come up and kill early sparks.  I never try to start relationships in Nov/ Dec 

 

 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

You are making too many excuses for him, OP. 

He's just plain not that interested. All of this has been sustained mostly by you. That tells you everything you need to know - his interest is not where yours is. 

Don't be that guy who can't read between the lines. I'm sorry it didn't work out, but I don't think trying to pursue this any further is going to yield the results you're hoping for. 

[JTSW]

Expat is right.

He is just not interested.

You are the one that is doing all the chasing.

It's time to stop. Don't reach out anymore.

Don't send that txt and definitely don't ask for a forth date.

[bene]

It’s quite painful to read as you are doing all the heavy lifting and he’s lukewarm at best.

18 hours ago, flogp189 said:

In line, he notes how he's pretty tired (and had 6 hours of sleep).

Listen, if a guy is on a date with someone he’s trying to impress then he’s not going to complain about being tired. It’s just a warning not to expect too much from him.

I’m not saying that he’s not a good guy per se but it’s clear that he’s just not interested and is making it very clear.

Edited January 12, 2023 by bene

[NuevoYorko]

You have nothing to feel embarrassed or ashamed about or to apologize for.   You tried - maybe a little too hard,  for  your own comfort level.  But you did nothing over the top.  It's just not happening.

[flogp189]

Update, I ended up texting him the day after and this was our exchange.

Me: Hey, I realize I might have come across a little too strong last night. I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable.

Me: I like getting to know you, and if you're up for it, I'd love to hang out on the weekend next time.

Him: It's okay haha

Him: (replied to my first msg) No worries

I've interpreted this as a polite rejection, but after talking to some friends he might have said that as a single phrase "It's okay, no worries." Some suggested to at least cool it off and don't text him for awhile. Someone else mentioned just following up with him explicitly about if he wants to continue hanging out or not. Thoughts?

I'm obviously going to start talking to other guys, but I would like to keep these lines open and pursue if it feels right.

 

 

[glows]

I don’t think this one is working out. Either disinterest, no emotional intelligence or low effort/careless texting. You were suggesting a weekend date or meet up next time and there was no response to that. 

I’d leave it there but that’s up to you.

[Lotsgoingon]

This guy is mumbling via text. 

I would not go out again with someone who can only mumble one or two words via text. No way! 

And you: quit apologizing! You didn't do anything wrong. 

[ShyViolet]

1 hour ago, flogp189 said:

I've interpreted this as a polite rejection, but after talking to some friends he might have said that as a single phrase "It's okay, no worries." Some suggested to at least cool it off and don't text him for awhile. Someone else mentioned just following up with him explicitly about if he wants to continue hanging out or not. Thoughts?

I'm obviously going to start talking to other guys, but I would like to keep these lines open and pursue if it feels right.

Surely you can't be serious, that you think it would be a good idea to text him yet again after this?  

It's really unfortunate that you haven't taken the good advice that you've gotten in this thread.  Your perception of this situation seems to be very far from the reality.  Your texts to this guy are becoming more and more cringey as you fail to take the hint that he's not interested in you, and you keep chasing.  I'm not sure what you think there is left here to "pursue."

[Els]

1 hour ago, flogp189 said:

Me: Hey, I realize I might have come across a little too strong last night. I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable.

Me: I like getting to know you, and if you're up for it, I'd love to hang out on the weekend next time.

Him: It's okay haha

Him: (replied to my first msg) No worries

IMO, this text exchange was terrible on his part. You showed vulnerability, opened up, initiated a deep conversation... he basically just said the equivalent of "ok lol".

OP, you can do better. Don't pursue people who have shown zero interest in reciprocating.

[Calmandfocused]

Flog what I can’t get my head around is WHY YOU are so interested in this man? What is it about your experience with him that makes you want to keep plugging away? I don’t get it? 
 

Your “dates” sound like slow painful torture to me. A bit like going to the dentist to have your teeth pulled for the sheer hell of it.

You indicate in your OP that the dates made you feel bad. Mainly that you felt very uncomfortable in his company. 
 

Why do you want to keep doing something again and again that makes you feel bad? 
 

 

 

 

[Alvi]

3 hours ago, flogp189 said:

Update, I ended up texting him the day after and this was our exchange.

Me: Hey, I realize I might have come across a little too strong last night. I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable.

Me: I like getting to know you, and if you're up for it, I'd love to hang out on the weekend next time.

Him: It's okay haha

Him: (replied to my first msg) No worries

I've interpreted this as a polite rejection, but after talking to some friends he might have said that as a single phrase "It's okay, no worries." Some suggested to at least cool it off and don't text him for awhile. Someone else mentioned just following up with him explicitly about if he wants to continue hanging out or not. Thoughts?

I'm obviously going to start talking to other guys, but I would like to keep these lines open and pursue if it feels right.

 

 

Just let it go. No need to send him any good bye texts or to block him. Start talking and meeting other people. 

P.S. Might be worthwhile to be more observant and to learn how to read other people's body language better. That way you are not going to spend more of your time and energy on someone who is not into you.

[Alvi]

1 hour ago, Elswyth said:

IMO, this text exchange was terrible on his part. You showed vulnerability, opened up, initiated a deep conversation... he basically just said the equivalent of "ok lol".

OP, you can do better. Don't pursue people who have shown zero interest in reciprocating.

What makes me wonder, and OP never answered me, is if he is out of the closet yet. Or maybe he just recently came out. He might very well be interested in OP but I don't think that he has what it takes to be a good partner at this moment. From what OP wrote in his post, there may be a lot of internal struggles going on inside of him. Nothing to do with OP, of course, but it may explain his behavior. But no, I don't think that OP should stick around and try to pursue him anymore.