Is this something worth breaking up for?

[Lorenza]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

I agree.

I mean no offense @Lorenza but your "ultimatum" was quite heavy- handed and controlling as well. 

He seems passive and submissive,  and willing to acquiesce to whatever a woman wants to keep her around and keep the peace. 

He's got no backbone and no amount of therapy is going to cure that. 

If this is appealing to you, go for it.

But please know the dynamic you're creating with your ultimatum is more a mother/son dynamic versus boyfriend/girlfriend.

It's important to have boundaries but this early in when you're still observing, again your approach was quite heavy-handed imo..

He misbehaves, you scold, threaten to leave, he says I'm sorry I promise I'll be better. 

Ugh!!

Not my cuppa of tea but if you're cool with it, so be.  

Enjoy. 

 

You´re right, I shouldn´t have made this into an ultimatum. I did however tried to phrase it in a way that it´s just something that´s not ok for me and I wouldn´t like to stay in a relationship where he does that. Also, I didn´t scold (I never did, not even in the heat of the moment). But it was too heavy-handed and you mentioning a mom/son dynamic makes a lot of sense. I think I will just completely lay off this topic for now and just observe. And no more talks about meeting his son for quite a while now. 
I don´t think he´s completely passive though. As I mentioned, he´s been quite passionate about this relationship and driving it forward. He pursued me in a respectful but sure manner. I like that he´s sensitive and vulnerable as a person. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Make sure he has the wiles to deal with a manipulative ex. Or else you will not be safe.

BF is a good person, you say. Wonderful. But now you need to know if he has the skill and the street smarts to deal with a highly experienced ex, highly experienced at manipulating and abusing and get your bf on the defensive. I love goodness. But goodness will do nothing to counteract an abusive ex if he is even in slight denial over how bad she is. (Sounds to me like he is still behind when seeing how ex affects him.)  

Fending off an ex like this requires a different set of skills than goodness. BF needs to up his level of calculation and awareness and social skill if he wants to break from ex and prevent ex from harming your relationship. No mommy daddy is going to rescue him. He needs to get tougher and anticipate her attacks on him and prepare with multiple ways to thwart her attacks--emotional attacks at this point, but I don't put physical attacks past her. 

And you want to keep your alarm up: ex got awfully possessive and abusive even though she has a bf. If ex comes at you in any way, do NOT minimize. You got to stay way out of denial if ex comes at you in any way. If she does, get the heck out!  

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lotsgoingon

[ExpatInItaly]

Look, when you're in a such a new relationship and you already need to lay out so many terms and conditions?

It's not going to last. Don't date projects. In a few months' time, you'll understand why. 

[bene]

All this seems too much for a brand new relationship. There’s nothing wrong with therapy and working on your issues but referring someone to therapy to “fix” himself to be with you is quite a stretch. You know each other for months, not years. It’s time to observe not to go all in and start to fix things.

I know the feeling when you meet a guy,  everything is looking bright but then new sides of him start to show and you’re sort of ignoring them to hold on to the dream that he’s the one… Deep down are you really willing to deal with the kid, the ex, all the parenting issues that may arise ? Do you want kids of your own one day? 

P.S. I wanted to say that @poppyfields usually has interesting takes, often different from others but really good observations.

[shellzbellz83]

10 hours ago, Lorenza said:

We had a long conversation where I clearly presented what he needs to do to continue being in a relationship with me, some of what he has already started doing on his own accord. I told him that the next time he gets involved in a long winded emotionally loaded conversation with his ex and allows her to affect his parenting or our relationship in any way will be the time we say goodbye to each other. I will consider any conversation with her that doesn´t involve the logistics, purchases, health concerns etc around their child as emotional cheating. Individual therapy is a must and he has already made an appointment. He has also talked to his family members who helped open his eyes a lot to what he´s been doing as well. He didn´t even realize how emotionally dependent on his ex he´s been. In his mind, he was just trying to ensure that his son has a good childhood and two parents who are on good terms. This lead to him doing everything to remain on good terms with her and he really held on to the idea of "friends". This is the first time he´s realized that it´s dysfunctional. Now that he´s in a new relationship and less available to her, she´s losing control and acting out. He says that he will do everything to detach and stop her from influencing his decisions and to be a good partner to me instead. 

So I think I will not break this off yet. I think a big part of me not letting this go yet is how my boyfriend handled the aftermath of this whole drama. He has been so respectful, compassionate and patient in talking things through and that´s how he also is as a person on a regular basis. Never invalidated anything I said and took the full responsibility of how his actions hurt me. I don´t remember if I mentioned it, but he did at the end stood up for himself and insisted on introducing me to his son on his own terms and his ex had to relent, but then it was me who said that it´s best that we wait, because I have doubts now. I think he really wants to be with me and to let the old attachments go. There has been so much effort from his end to see me and spend quality time with me and he does the vast majority of planning and initiating. We will see. This is now a one strike and you´re out kind of thing, but I really hope that it can work out. I do truly think he´s one the best guys I´ve met in terms of personality. If he is suitable for me specifically - I will probably see in the nearest future while continuing to observe how this unfolds. 

Lots of demands/ultimatums for such a brand new relationship. 

[BaileyB]

This guy is not ready for a serious relationship. He’s got other things going on in his life that need to be sorted before he’s ready for a relationship and this is ultimately going to become increasingly frustrating for you. I’m sorry, life is complicated and there are just too many challenges here for this to really work well. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by BaileyB

[Lorenza]

12 hours ago, bene said:

All this seems too much for a brand new relationship. There’s nothing wrong with therapy and working on your issues but referring someone to therapy to “fix” himself to be with you is quite a stretch. You know each other for months, not years. It’s time to observe not to go all in and start to fix things.

I know the feeling when you meet a guy,  everything is looking bright but then new sides of him start to show and you’re sort of ignoring them to hold on to the dream that he’s the one… Deep down are you really willing to deal with the kid, the ex, all the parenting issues that may arise ? Do you want kids of your own one day? 

P.S. I wanted to say that @poppyfields usually has interesting takes, often different from others but really good observations.

He realizes that he needs therapy to be a better dad too. It´s high time for him to deal with his issues and I hope he continues to do that whether or not we´re going to end up together. I will not try to fix anything else and just pull the brakes for now. I have a tendency to want to swoop in and try to fix everyone´s problems, I thrive on that. Savior complex. No more talks about meeting the son, our future etc. Just dating and seeing if any more situations occur. But I do have a bad feeling about it all and the initial magic is kinda gone for me. Maybe I´m not being fair to him continuing this with only half of a heart. 

I don´t know if I want to deal with the kid and the ex. His kid is super cute, smart for his years and I was really looking forward to hanging out with him. I like kids and worked as a music teacher for many years. But it all feels tainted now. I had hopes that his ex is a normal person and we will all be civil and friendly with each other. I also didn´t know the extent of my boyfriend´s irrational feelings about his son. It all feels so complicated now. I don´t want to have kids of my own because on the contrary of these people having kids together despite major issues, I feel a sense of responsibility to not procreate when I myself am not in a good mental shape. I wish I could be a mom but I can´t. So I just would like a partner for some sort of twosomeness and sense of belonging, it´s a nice feeling. Otherwise I also feel really good as single. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Lorenza

[Weezy1973]

40 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

, I feel a sense of responsibility to not procreate when I myself am not in a good mental shape.

Are you going to therapy for this? Do you think not being in “good mental shape” also impacts your relationships? Could it be impacting how you interpret these events?

[Lorenza]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

Are you going to therapy for this? Do you think not being in “good mental shape” also impacts your relationships? Could it be impacting how you interpret these events?

I just think that parenthood tends to bring most issues to the surface and there is no way my issues wouldn´t return to haunt my children. My late teen years and early 20s were riddled by mental issues and trauma. Now I have my crap together and react to problem in a calm manner, going through my anxieties quietly. But that doesn´t mean I would be a good parent. There are a lot of crappy parenting patterns passed on for generations in my family, so that must end with me. 
I go to therapy on and off, not currently. But I was planning to return to it. We can all benefit from therapy. 

[bene]

3 hours ago, Lorenza said:

now. I don´t want to have kids of my own because on the contrary of these people having kids together despite major issues, I feel a sense of responsibility to not procreate when I myself am not in a good mental shape. I wish I could be a mom but I can´t.

One good thing if you don’t want kids is that you don’t have the pressure of the biological clock. It gives you a lot of leeway to observe and take things slow (not that you shouldn’t do that if you want kids, of course). You have all the time in the world to find this togetherness and belonging.

[Lorenza]

I was thinking - is it even reasonable to tell your partner, that the relationship is less important? Of course children´s needs come first, but do their wants? I feel like this opens up the gate for mistreatment of your partner using the child as an excuse to marginalize your partner. I am supposed to give my love, support, devotion, move countries but I will be cast aside at the child´s every whim? Feels like there should be a line or at least some correct assessment of each occurring situation. If you want to build a stable romantic relationship, you should not be placing one thing first and the other - second. These are two very different relationships and shouldn't a competition. There must be a time when it's ok to tell your child no. So what if we plan a trip and the child says "I don't want dad to go" and then his ex calls him and yells that he's making their child sad - then my bf would just cancel the trip and be very very sorry? 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Lorenza

[Wiseman2]

5 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

. I am supposed to give my love, support, devotion, move countries but I will be cast aside at the child´s every whim? 

It may be best to reflect if making all these sacrifices is what you want in your life. The situation seems too new and too complex right now. Sadly you already seem resentful, so use this time to reconsider if this is the right man or situation for you.

[Lorenza]

12 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It may be best to reflect if making all these sacrifices is what you want in your life. The situation seems too new and too complex right now. Sadly you already seem resentful, so use this time to reconsider if this is the right man or situation for you.

I mean that we do tend to give our best to a partner when we're together and the relationship progresses. But I wonder if that is very one sided and having children can be used almost as an excuse to never treat a partner as good as they deserve. I can see examples of that on reddit r/stepparents. I don't think you should put your child and your partner against each other having them compete for your attention. I feel like this might be the case with this man. His child was sad about dad being abroad on the new years eve and that made him halt the relationship and it almost ended from my side. How many more situations like that might occur? 

[Weezy1973]

25 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

. But I wonder if that is very one sided and having children can be used almost as an excuse to never treat a partner as good as they deserve. 

I think if you’re going to date someone with kids, you have to realize the kids will always come first. It’s not a competition. And it’s perfectly reasonable for you to not want to date someone with  kids for that very reason. That’s what you’re going to have to decide for yourself. Being that this is a relatively new relationship, and you’ve written a pretty extensive thread on the matter as clearly it’s taking a lot of your mental energy, might be best to end it. 

[glows]

He made a mistake suggesting to meet his son without speaking with the mother first. This is coparenting between the both of them. Unfortunately they haven’t learned to do this without a few bumps and it’s his first relationship since the break up.

The more immediate issue is the long distance and the earlier detail mentioned that the plan was to eventually move to where he is to be together. Please make sure you’re moving on your own terms and have a well-thought out plan and ability to reverse the move and restart your life should it not work out. Or, move into your own place and date locally for awhile. Don’t depend on him to house and shelter you when you move. I’m speaking much later down the line. 

It’s clear the both of you care about each other but feelings are hurt. If the mother is uncertain about the situation then encourage them to deal with their child and coparent better. You’re not part of that equation. Keep your feelings out of it regarding the boy. You may not know it yet but he may also want nothing to do with you or take a long time to warm up to someone new. 

Focus more on the relationship and treat changes in plans with the child as separate. He deserves his mother and father coparenting well and communicating without any issues. I’m sorry you got caught in the crosshairs and felt disappointed. This is a learning experience. Stay positive and focus on your own independence, financial or otherwise. 

[PotatoHead]

When dating or starting a relationship with someone who has kids, you have to understand that you will always come second to their kids.  Not saying a healthy balance can't be found, but you have to be understanding when things come up and they have to tend to their kids.  Doesn't matter whether their ex is crazy or perfectly sane, this will be the case.  It may be harder when one person in the relationship doesn't have kids of their own.  And yes there is always a chance that the kid may not want someone new in their life, or won't like you taking attention from one of their parents.  I struggle with this with both of my daughters, they have made it very clear they do not wish to have my new partner around.  For the time being we keep things mostly separate.  There is my relationship with her, and then my relationship with my kids, and her relationship with her kids.  Those three do not get mixed together and probably won't for years.

Edited January 20, 2023 by PotatoHead

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Lorenza said:

But I wonder if that is very one sided and having children can be used almost as an excuse to never treat a partner as good as they deserve.

My partner is always concerned about my needs and he has always treated me with respect, kindness, and consideration.

That said, his child does come first. Not all the time - there have been times when we have said “we have other plans, I can’t take him tonight.” But generally, if the child is in need of care we provide care for the child and that sometimes means we cancel our plans. 

In terms of travel, we haven’t travelled together. He has made trips with his son, we have done things together - we have not really travelled as a “family.” If his son was to cancel, it is likely that his son would stay with his mother and we would still go. But then again, my boyfriend has strong boundaries with his ex. The only time we would cancel is if there was something really wrong with his son - illness, hospitalization, etc… 

Dating a man with a child is not easy. Relationships are complex and it requires sacrifice from EVERYONE. I would not have stayed in this relationship if my partner didn’t have strong boundaries with his ex. I think you really need to think about whether you are prepared to make the sacrifice that is required, particularly if you are dating a man who doesn’t have strong boundaries and is not assertive in dealing with his ex and his child. 

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

For the time being we keep things mostly separate.  There is my relationship with her, and then my relationship with my kids, and her relationship with her kids.  Those three do not get mixed together and probably won't for years.

We very much do the same. It’s been years, we live together, but the relationships are still very separate. 

[Lorenza]

No no, I perfectly understand that the child’s needs come first. If he’s sick, hungry, thirsty, needs reassurance - by no means, I can compromise on anything. I meant more about their wants and tantrums. I have a suspicion it will be enough for the child and ex to express any kind of disapproval and things with me will get cancelled. Also, when the child is at his place, my boyfriend thinks that he has to hover over him his every waking minute and constantly entertain the child. They sleep together as well and he is unsure on how to get his son to sleep in his own room because the son doesn’t want to. He was determined to try after recently moving to a new apartment but it was enough for the boy to say “I don’t want to” for any attempts to seize. I have a hard time imagining living together where a child decides everything at home. 

[poppyfields]

@Lorenzathis a new relationship wherein you're observing to determine if they're the right fit long term..

Clearly, this man, this relationship is not.  

My advice is wish him well and say goodbye.  You would be doing yourself and him a huge disservice by staying. 

It's good to reflect and introspect after it's over, that's how we learn for next time. 

But here?  This is done, no sense in prolonging the inevitable. 

Again, it's very early stages so a minor blip or should be.

It really is that simple. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by poppyfields

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, Lorenza said:

I was thinking - is it even reasonable to tell your partner, that the relationship is less important? Of course children´s needs come first, but do their wants? I feel like this opens up the gate for mistreatment of your partner using the child as an excuse to marginalize your partner. I am supposed to give my love, support, devotion, move countries but I will be cast aside at the child´s every whim? Feels like there should be a line or at least some correct assessment of each occurring situation. If you want to build a stable romantic relationship, you should not be placing one thing first and the other - second. 

If you have a young child - yes, you should.   The child always comes first.  No question.

The child's "wants" and "needs" are not to be parsed out based on the opinions of a person that the parent is dating; that person needs to fit in well with the "family unit."   I'm not saying that the person should be "cast aside at the child's every whim" at all.  If a parent is behaving like that with their kid they are in trouble, regardless of whether they're in a relationship or not.  

This post gives me a very strong sense that you can't be in a successful relationship with a man who is parenting, particularly one with a long road of it in front of him.  You're already positioning yourself in an adversarial role with regards to the parental role of the guy and to the child himself.    The ex doesn't even come into play.  

It's not "wrong" that you want to come first with the man in your life, or that you don't have warm feelings about sharing your WHOLE LIFE with a kid who will become a teenager, maybe have issues, take a lot of attention, etc.