Is this something worth breaking up for?

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, JTSW said:

But the OP stated that his ex just had her new BF meet the boy so bit of a double standard.

It is - but from a parenting perspective,  the child meeting BOTH parents' new partners within a short period of time is a lot for the kid.

Quote

She also threatened to take the kid away which is just spiteful and ridiculous.

Yes.  She does sound like a lot. 

4 months together is too soon to introduce you in a formal way, IMO.   Quite a bit too soon; a year would be more appropriate.   It would be different if you were not long distance; the kid could meet you at a park or something and just get to know you gradually over time.   If things didn't work out, it would not be jarring for him.  You were just a nice woman at the park, Dad's friend.   But if you're in the house, it's a different story.  

Edited January 17, 2023 by NuevoYorko

[Els]

4 hours ago, Lorenza said:

She has introduced her own new partner to their son even though her relationship is fairly new as well, exploded at him and threatened to take the son away (empty threats, she legally cannot and there is not even the smallest ground for it). I can guarantee me being much younger and a good looking lady is at play here and her son being excited about me adds fuel to the fire. She´s trying to come up with scenarios where my boyfriend has wronged the child by going abroad to see me, even though it happened on the days she was supposed to have him. So there is a lot of personal feelings here. But the worst is my boyfriend still feels the need to please her even though she was abusive in their relationship. 

Regardless of whether all of this is true, it doesn't matter. The point is that it really IS quite risky for the child to be introduced to newly-official partners so early on. The fact that the ex is a hypocrite doesn't change this.

I mean, I get it. It's reasonable to want to feel like you are his priority, especially in a long-distance relationship where there are so few things that you can actually have. Unfortunately, if you are dating someone with kids, the kids will always come first. It's fine to decide that you need more than this and break up with him - you have to look out for yourself. But please do NOT pressure him to introduce his son to you.

[Lotsgoingon]

And I feel like the ex can enter at anytime and convince that anything he does for me is hurting his child and he will just flip on me.

Really good intuition to pick up a problem here. You got to feel like your bf is safe, and that isn't a wimp who will abandon you at the whim of his ex.

I disagree with a lot of folks here. I think he acted like a jerk. And I think you are right to trust your hurt feelings here.

What to do? Well you could hang in there a while longer with the rule that if he does this (or anything like it where he backtracks on you) you dump him. Or if he caves to his ex, you dump him. 

Or you could simply say you don't feel comfortable right now and leave. See if he has the strength to come to you and really fix things.

The issue isn't the priority of the kids, at least to me. The issue is that this guy wimped out to his ex. And that could be a big problem in the future, a problem with the ex and a problem with the rest of the world. What else is he going to abandon you on?

Oh, and I think four months is fine for you to meet the children. I'm not of the school that says children suffer some irreparable harm by meeting the lover of a parent--even if the lover doesn't last. 

Worry and question: sounds like you got REALLY invested in meeting the son. Why? I know that when I've gotten too invested too soon that meant I was working too hard and meant that the relationship was not equal. Why do you care when you meet the son? Make sure you are NOT trying to win bonus points by getting along with the son. You want to be real: when time comes you may or may not get along with the son. And that's fine. If you don't, you move on. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Lotsgoingon

[Lorenza]

Just to clarify - me meeting his son this early was heavily his idea. I wasn´t even planning on proposing such a thing and was ready to wait patiently until he suggests it. He suggested it and then hyped it up to the point where I was trying to slow it down a bit, so there are no unrealistic expectations. But I did get very invested in it too. Especially after him telling me how his son is asking questions about me and my cat, saying that he really wants to meet me. I don´t have children of my own and will not have any, but I´m not heartless. The thought of a little boy being curious and excited about meeting me was really nice. 

Another thing to clarify - even though this is long distance, we see each other two weeks out of four in a month. Sometimes over at his, sometimes at mine or just at a hotel. I am not staying over when the child is there and that was never a plan. The plan was to just show up here and there when my boyfriend is about to pick up the son to start their week together and have me walk them home, go to a park or a cafe. The son would see me once of twice a month for a while, until it would feel comfortable with me sleeping there when the son is at dad´s. It is exactly what one of the posters implied that it would not be. I would show my face in neutral places for the son to start getting comfortable seeing my face. I really do not see a harm done to a child this way even if I would disappear after a while, just like a preschool teacher who quits her job would. The son doesn´t need to see affection between and his dad either. 

I´m his first relationship after the divorce. But it´s been 1,5 years since he officially moved out. Ever since then they´ve had an equal custody of the child. I don´t think only the mom is fit to decide when she wants to introduce a new partner to a child. In this situation where dad spends equally as much time, money, effort, cooking, cleaning etc for the child, he can decide on his own as well. 

My problem with the situation wasn´t that I won´t get to meet him. The problem was my boyfriend completely switching his opinions on the same day, after talking to the mom and having an explosive argument. He said completely different things prior to the conversation and I think if he truly felt that way he had the right to do as he sees fit. But he succumbed to her and it wasn´t because she explained in a sensible way why it might not be a good idea. He came to me defeated and irrationally scared that he messed up. That´s not a good dynamic to have with the ex. Everything he told me made it sound that he is scared of her and that her abuse continues on. This is the core of the problem for me. I feel like I cannot trust him to stand up for his own opinions if his ex resorts to manipulation, like threatening to take the child.  

Edited January 17, 2023 by Lorenza

[Lotsgoingon]

I got you: bf is a wimp to the ex.  Has no  backbone with the ex. I gotta say: 15.5 years after divorce is not very long for many people. And if you had an abusive spouse, it could take longer, sometimes a lot longer, to recover. Has he been to therapy about the ex? Sounds like he might not be ready to date seriously. 

I'm glad you clarified that he is the one he seduced you with the idea of meeting his son. That makes his later behavior and cave even worse. 

To answer your question: yes, this is an important enough matter and his behavior bad enough to make breaking up quite reasonable. 

I keep coming back to my gut instinct that he lacks boundaries and backbone in other parts of his life--and I don't think he's recovered from the ex's abuse.  This is merely the tip of the proverbial iceberg. 

[S2B]

Meet the child if you are still dating after one year.

there’s no reason to meet the child unless you’re together long term.

if you can’t handle that idea for the child’s best interest - then don’t date someone who has a child.

[Calmandfocused]

Op, I understand completely. I think what you are trying to say here is that you are unhappy that your boyfriend is still under the thumb of his ex. Even though he is not in a relationship with her he is still dancing to her tune. 
 

I get it! 
 

I can tell you  that 1.5 years after the demise of a marriage or long term relationship is not a long time at all. Most people are still in a “transistion ” phase at this point where they are still getting used to being on their own. In other words even though they think they are emotionally available they are not! They have still got to rebalance the (new) dynamics of their (new) co parenting relationship with their ex. That is hard and it takes considerable  time. 
 

I have 2 children and I’ve been divorced for years now. I recently met a man who’s been separated 16 months. There were many reasons why I decided not to progress it after 2 dates but the main reason I pulled the plug was I concluded  his life is still too intertwined with his ex. I chose not to get involved. No thanks! 
 

Personally I think it’s too early for your boyfriend. He’s not found his feet as a divorced man. And he’s certainly not ready for a serious relationship IMO. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Calmandfocused

[LynneVicious]

Unfortunately, this is his burden to bear with his ex and the decision on what’s best for the child. It’s clear you feel betrayed about it, but it’s probably better in the long run that you don’t meet for now. 

It’s usually difficult to date someone with kids when you don’t have any. It’s hard to see their side. This is between him and his ex, though. And since she is the child’s mother, she will always be there. 

Best to proceed with caution. If he brings up meeting his kid again, I would thwart that idea until you’ve been dating seriously 6 months - a year. Then it’s a reasonable request. Good luck. 

[ExpatInItaly]

54 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

Just to clarify - me meeting his son this early was heavily his idea.

I would see that as a red flag, personally. 

It would suggest to me that this man moves too quickly and is probably impulsive. He gets caught up in the excitment too easily without stopping to think about things logically. His best bet would have been to keep his child out of the relationship and not hyped it up to him by sharing information about you, voice messages and so on. It's way too soon for that, especially for such a little kid. He could easily have kept your relationship under wraps until you two got to know each other better and see where your relationship is going. Small children get attached so easily and it's not fair to bring someone new into his life when you two have not even passed the honeymoon stage yet. 

Add to that the fact that his ex calls the shots (even I think she is right on this point), and you have yourself a man who doesn't seem ready for a serious relationship yet. He's not navigating any of this very well, and I would be wary about proceeding for all kinds of reasons. 

[poppyfields]

@Lorenzaa bit of a different take from some others, but what I am sensing here is that this is NOT about it being too soon to meet his son, you have acknowledged that it probably is.

The issue IS that you have discovered a side to your boyfriend that is NOT to your liking and has turned you OFF. 

That being, he is weak and easily manipulated, lacks backbone and allows his ex to call the shots, control him and now control your relationship and its progression.  Might as well own it, get real about it.

I think your feelings are valid and if me, I would be thinking REAL hard about moving forward with him.

These early stages (0-6 months at least) are for observing to determine if someone is the right fit for us long term.

You have now witnessed a side to his character and personality that is not to your liking or standards.

He can have all the therapy in the world, imo it's irrelevant.   The "damage" if one wishes to call it that has been done.

You are disillusioned and turned off.  He is NOT the man you originally thought him to be.

If this were me and feeling as you do, I would wish him well with his therapy and move on.

I am sorry this didn't pan out the way you hope, that is always disappointing.

I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by poppyfields

[MsJayne]

59 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

My problem with the situation wasn´t that I won´t get to meet him. The problem was my boyfriend completely switching his opinions on the same day, after talking to the mom and having an explosive argument. He said completely different things prior to the conversation and I think if he truly felt that way he had the right to do as he sees fit. But he succumbed to her and it wasn´t because she explained in a sensible way why it might not be a good idea. He came to me defeated and irrationally scared that he messed up. That´s not a good dynamic to have with the ex. Everything he told me made it sound that he is scared of her and that her abuse continues on. This is the core of the problem for me. I feel like I cannot trust him to stand up for his own opinions if his ex resorts to manipulation, like threatening to take the child.  

Yes, this is the crux of the problem, not the introduction to the son. If you're not sleeping there and playing the role of substitute mother there's no reason to make a massive deal out of meeting the child. Introducing him to you would be no different to him meeting one of his dad's other friends and spending time with them occasionally. The ex is being controlling and my guess is that it's to do with your BF moving on and making a new life with someone else. She doesn't want the son forming a bond with a new woman who could potentially be a second mother figure, she's jealous before it's even happened so she's diminishing your relationship by pulling your BF's strings. The problem is your BF allowing this because he's scared of the hassles she can cause in relation to him having contact with his son - a spiteful ex-wife will happily flout court orders without thinking twice about the effect on the kids, it's quite common. Your BF needs to grow a spine and just go ahead and introduce you as planned, as a gradual process, and then refuse to enter into discussion about it with his ex. The fact that she's introduced their son to her new partner just makes her a monumental hypocrite. I would seriously think hard about whether you really want this stuff in your life. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Another alarming red flag: the ex herself is dating someone and has introduced that person to the son and still she reaches and stretches her suffocating arms out to try to control your bf.

The ex could be a dangerous psychopath. I'd stay clear, especially since bf lets her push him around (emotionally). She'll run manipulative circles around him until (or if) he grows up and grows some backbone. Since bf is clueless about standing up to the ex, that means YOU would be vulnerable to the ex's manipulating controlling moves. You are with a partner who doesn't have the strength or clarity to protect you. 

Yeah, get going away from this relationship. I always say stay away from people with psycho exes who are going to continue to be in their lives .

[poppyfields]

53 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

Your BF needs to grow a spine and just go ahead and introduce you as planned, as a gradual process, and then refuse to enter into discussion about it with his ex. The fact that she's introduced their son to her new partner just makes her a monumental hypocrite. I would seriously think hard about whether you really want this stuff in your life. 

Amen sista!!  

[basil67]

@Lorenza Thanks for redirecting me on the fact that his ex had the son meet her new partner.  I agree that she is being hypocritical and could be a real problem for you.

You've also mentioned that you were wary about meeting his son so quickly - I think your instinct is correct.  Even if he's willing to risk disappointing him if this relationship fails, perhaps you be the sensible one.

Another flag I saw is that he can't cope if his son is upset.  It's good that he's getting therapy, but it sounds like he's also going to need help with his parenting.  It's a fact of life that our kids get disappointed from time to time.  Whether it be correcting their behaviour, grounding them, telling them that they can't have candy for breakfast or telling them that they can't have a pony....all of these things can result in a mild sulk through to a tantrum.  If he's going to meltdown alongside his son, how the heck is he going to be an effective parent? Parents need to be strong and calm in the face of a child's distress.

Ask yourself this:  If you decide that your instinct to wait is correct and you put the meet on hold for a few months, how will your boyfriend react to his son being disappointed about the meet not happening (yet)?  Will he simply say that it couldn't be organised and put it on hold for a bit (while trying to scale back the excitement)?  Or will he get upset because his son is upset and blame you for letting the son down?   I'm usually not one for tests, but this is quite possibly something I'd try to see what happens.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by basil67

[Ami1uwant]

12 hours ago, Lorenza said:

He´s 5! 

At that age  , it takes time before you meet the child.  You want to make sure you are serious snd gotten over Andy sort of early hugs and know the person….thr new car smell is gone.

[Lorenza]

To me, whether or not it is too early to meet the child is an entirely different discussion my boyfriend should have been taking up on his own. My boyfriend was entirely convinced that it was ok. That´s his right as a parent who´s raising his own child and putting a completely equal and sometimes even larger effort into it as the mom does. I was apprehensive about it sometimes but trusted his judgement. At the end meeting up in a neutral place every now and then and being there as dad´s friend didn´t seem like such a big deal and I tried a bit to manage his expectations. 

The posters who say that I got disillusioned by how he acted in this situation are correct. If he was so sure, he should have held his own. If he wasn´t, he shouldn´t have hyped it up. Some posters said my boyfriend´s and his ex´s lives are still very intertwined and I think that´s the issue. There was another recent incident. 

So my boyfriend was supposed to have his son over for the new year, according to the schedule they have (it´s a weird schedule, but it doesn´t matter). A week prior to that, the ex announced to him that she wants to take the son to see her parents and that they´re spending the new year there. Suddenly he was free and we made plans for him to come over to meet and spend the new year together. And he did come over. However the son was starting to get a cold and his grandparents, still quite paranoid about the c virus, asked them to leave early. So they were home for the new years weekend and the ex was pissed that my boyfriend wasn´t there to take their son over, since it was his days. She was the one to change the plan and her plan didn´t work out for independent reasons, but he was apparently not supposed to make plans and be available in case she needed to hand the son back. She didn´t spell it out, but why else would she be pissed? 

She also came up with a story on how their son was sad about daddy not being there and he was scared and unsure about him ever coming back. I´m not claiming that he didn´t feel sad and unsure. But my boyfriend did have a video call with the son and told him "I will see you soon" so I´m not sure what the issue was and why she didn´t explain to him that dad will be back and they can spend time together soon. The aftermath of this was that they had a big emotionally loaded argument and she refused to be flexible with picking their son up a bit earlier the next time my boyfriend was supposed to fly out to see me. He had to hand him over at the time she decided, miss his flight and buy a later one for 5 times the price of the first one. 

There were also other red flags for me. First one was him still having some of her presents on display. On our first date he weirdly told me about her very special surname (wtf). He called her his "best friend" once, despite also telling me that she was horribly verbally abusive to him during their relationship. On both of these recent blow-ups they were having hours long conversation about feelings and why they react the way they react. My boyfriend is excusing this as "well we have history together and a lot of things come up", which feels completely inappropriate to me. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lorenza

[ExpatInItaly]

23 minutes ago, Lorenza said:

On our first date he weirdly told me about her very special surname (wtf). He called her his "best friend" once, despite also telling me that she was horribly verbally abusive to him during their relationship. On both of these recent blow-ups they were having hours long conversation about feelings and why they react the way they react. My boyfriend is excusing this as "well we have history together and a lot of things come up", which feels completely inappropriate to me. 

I'm sorry Lorenza, but this man is so not ready to date anyone else yet. 

He's not over her. It's going to take a long time before he's ready to have another serious relationship.

[Lorenza]

16 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I'm sorry Lorenza, but this man is so not ready to date anyone else yet. 

He's not over her. It's going to take a long time before he's ready to have another serious relationship.

At the same time he´s been putting so much time, effort and money into me, so I think he´s definitely over her romantically, but he´s not detached mentally at all. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Lorenza said:

 which feels completely inappropriate to me. 

Agree. The son is not the issue. The issue is not only distance but an inordinate amount of drama for 16 weeks dating. Most of it revolving around his ex and his chaos with her.

He's not ready to date. He may want company, but he's staying too embroiled in his battles with his ex . He doesn't have time to build anything with you because he spends most of his time dragging out his problems with his ex.

[Alpacalia]

It sounds utterly exhausting.

I'm glad you decided not to become embroiled in their dynamic and tabled the discussion about his son. The decision to do this gave you the opportunity to clear your mind so you could reevaluate your relationship. 

I stated earlier in this thread, if he chooses to take her bait, then he is not fully prepared to be in another relationship.

Now that you have that in mind, it's time to make some tough decisions.

The good news is that you won't be treated like a pawn in the interim.

[Lorenza]

We had a long conversation where I clearly presented what he needs to do to continue being in a relationship with me, some of what he has already started doing on his own accord. I told him that the next time he gets involved in a long winded emotionally loaded conversation with his ex and allows her to affect his parenting or our relationship in any way will be the time we say goodbye to each other. I will consider any conversation with her that doesn´t involve the logistics, purchases, health concerns etc around their child as emotional cheating. Individual therapy is a must and he has already made an appointment. He has also talked to his family members who helped open his eyes a lot to what he´s been doing as well. He didn´t even realize how emotionally dependent on his ex he´s been. In his mind, he was just trying to ensure that his son has a good childhood and two parents who are on good terms. This lead to him doing everything to remain on good terms with her and he really held on to the idea of "friends". This is the first time he´s realized that it´s dysfunctional. Now that he´s in a new relationship and less available to her, she´s losing control and acting out. He says that he will do everything to detach and stop her from influencing his decisions and to be a good partner to me instead. 

So I think I will not break this off yet. I think a big part of me not letting this go yet is how my boyfriend handled the aftermath of this whole drama. He has been so respectful, compassionate and patient in talking things through and that´s how he also is as a person on a regular basis. Never invalidated anything I said and took the full responsibility of how his actions hurt me. I don´t remember if I mentioned it, but he did at the end stood up for himself and insisted on introducing me to his son on his own terms and his ex had to relent, but then it was me who said that it´s best that we wait, because I have doubts now. I think he really wants to be with me and to let the old attachments go. There has been so much effort from his end to see me and spend quality time with me and he does the vast majority of planning and initiating. We will see. This is now a one strike and you´re out kind of thing, but I really hope that it can work out. I do truly think he´s one the best guys I´ve met in terms of personality. If he is suitable for me specifically - I will probably see in the nearest future while continuing to observe how this unfolds. 

[stillafool]

Well if he's willing to put up with your rules and you're happy I hope it works out for you guys.  It still sounds like he's doing what the women in his life tells him to do rather than standing up for himself and doing as he wants.  That's not very attractive to me.

Edited January 18, 2023 by stillafool

[PotatoHead]

Sorry to hear about this, but it sounds like at the very least his ex is emotionally abusive, manipulative, and possibly narcissistic.  She is using the child to control him and to affect his attempt to have a new relationship.

It is not that he is not over his ex, but while they were together he probably went through years of this type of abuse.  He hasn't yet learned how to set boundaries and stand up for himself and as such, she is still able to use and manipulate him.  It could take years for him to heal and learn to set those boundaries, he will likely need counseling.

I know this from first hand experience.

[poppyfields]

24 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Well if he's willing to put up with your rules and you're happy I hope it works out for you guys.  It still sounds like he's doing what the women in his life tells him to do rather than standing up for himself and doing as he wants.  That's not very attractive to me.

I agree.

I mean no offense @Lorenza but your "ultimatum" was quite heavy- handed and controlling as well. 

He seems passive and submissive,  and willing to acquiesce to whatever a woman wants to keep her around and keep the peace. 

He's got no backbone and no amount of therapy is going to cure that. 

If this is appealing to you, go for it.

But please know the dynamic you're creating with your ultimatum is more a mother/son dynamic versus boyfriend/girlfriend.

It's important to have boundaries but this early in when you're still observing, again your approach was quite heavy-handed imo..

He misbehaves, you scold, threaten to leave, he says I'm sorry I promise I'll be better. 

Ugh!!

Not my cuppa of tea but if you're cool with it, so be.  

Enjoy. 

 

[Alpacalia]

Congratulations, you two are in a relationship and he feels comfortable with you enough to talk to you about his concerns. He's honest and trusts you. However, I'm sorry to hear that his fears include a manipulative ex that... well, broke him a little.

Since you’re not his counselor and trying to serve as one could backfire and limit your relationship anyway, he really needs to get the help he needs, whether it’s time alone or a counselor.

My feeling is that you aren't ready to close the chapter on this at this point, so it's good that you're postponing meeting his son. It's just a bit too complicated and unstable of an environment for him right now.