I'm Engaged!!!

[Outcast]

There ARE times when "you just know" and you're actually RIGHT!

 

Yes but everybody when they believe they 'just know' believes they are right. What people like you tend to believe is that you actually knew what you were doing and everyone else was an idiot. Not true. As it happened, you were right not because you're brilliant or heavily experienced but because you happened to pick someone decent who was not going to turn out to be an abuser, drunk, or gambler.

 

Perfectly brilliant and very experienced people have been taken by cons, murderers, and other baddies. What people don't seem to understand is that a con doesn't come across as evil. They don't have shifty eyes. The very reason someone can con someone is precisely because they are eminiently believable and pleasant and nice. Ted Bundy had lots of female friends.

 

So good for you that you lucked in, but it's a conceit to think that it's to your credit.

 

It's so much more than just a time issue.

 

For the millionth time, it's not that knowing someone longer will guarantee that you marry, but what it may do is help you weed out someone with serious problems before you make a mistake that takes a lot of time and trouble to fix.

[Mary3]

Keep in mind that 50% of marraiges end in divorce.

 

75% of divorces were initiated by the wife.

 

Meaning you can feel wonderful love for that person and feel they will be there for the rest of your life but the fact is : the other persons feelings can change for you , in 10 weeks, 10 months or 10 years. Anything can bring that about , illness , job change , relocation, marital affairs.

 

I still stand by getting to really know the person. Yes they love you today. But they may not love you down the road .

 

There must many levels of connection and any one of those can be a deal breaker if not blended perfectly.

 

Your values, spending habits , religious beliefs, children ( will or won't have ) common interests , money , all play into the factors.

 

Realizing what marraige is : its a marraige of two people in a legal agreement , you are saying that person and everything they stand for, will be mingled into your world.

 

I feel that love is something that develops as you spend quality time together. I know we all felt the rush of love fast at some time but in itself real love takes time to develop into a deep lasting relationship.

[Hot Coco]

Yes but everybody when they believe they 'just know' believes they are right. What people like you tend to believe is that you actually knew what you were doing and everyone else was an idiot. Not true. As it happened, you were right not because you're brilliant or heavily experienced but because you happened to pick someone decent who was not going to turn out to be an abuser, drunk, or gambler.

 

Perfectly brilliant and very experienced people have been taken by cons, murderers, and other baddies. What people don't seem to understand is that a con doesn't come across as evil. They don't have shifty eyes. The very reason someone can con someone is precisely because they are eminiently believable and pleasant and nice. Ted Bundy had lots of female friends.

 

So good for you that you lucked in, but it's a conceit to think that it's to your credit.

 

 

 

For the millionth time, it's not that knowing someone longer will guarantee that you marry, but what it may do is help you weed out someone with serious problems before you make a mistake that takes a lot of time and trouble to fix.

 

Very, very presumptous assumptions on your part. You have NO idea why I was right. And NO, I don't think everyone else is an idiot. How could you say I wasn't "heavily experienced." You have no idea what my experiences were. Maybe I'm "heavily insightful" too! I think intelligence plays a part in this too. There's a LOT that goes into making a wise choice in a mate. You say I was right because I picked someone decent. You say that like that's an EASY no-brainer way of picking a mate, so it doesn't really count for anything. If it's so easy why isn't EVERYONE picking a decent mate?

 

I didn't "luck in" and call it conceited if you want but it IS to my credit that I picked the right man. I went it to it with my eyes WIDE OPEN and I didn't let feelings of "love" cloud my judgement. So call me conceited. I give myself ALL the credit. It wasn't dumb luck. And I didn't need "a lot of time" to spot serious trouble. I would have spotted it within six months tops.

 

So go ahead and call me conceited or just lucky. What twisted "logic."

[Outcast]

You say I was right because I picked someone decent.You say that like that's an EASY no-brainer way of picking a mate, so it doesn't really count for anything. If it's so easy why isn't EVERYONE picking a decent mate?

 

Duh because there are a lot of people out there who aren't decent mates but who are excellent at pretending they are and who can fool even the most brilliant of people.

 

You clearly think you could never have been fooled; I think that's a dangerous conceit. I've got a respectable set of IQ points but I would never be so foolish as to believe that I am fool-proof and I think it behooves all adult humans to be equally cautious about believing in their powers of discernment.

 

IMHO you are fortunate because you happened to believe he was a decent guy and he turned out to be. I propose to you that had you had the misfortune to encounter a not-so-decent guy who was excellent at self-deception or at deceiving others, you would have been as fooled as perfectly fine women before you have been fooled.

[Hot Coco]

Nope, sorry. I can't be fooled. Call me conceited (I prefer to call it confidence.) But Ok, we'll go with your theory that I'm conceited. Maybe I am. Maybe I have good reason to be. Why is my "conceit" dangerous? It's worked for me so far! Hey, if that's "danger" I can live with it. I'd rather be conceited than a whole lot of others things...like uh...stupid maybe or close minded or santimonious...ok, you get the picture.

 

No, no one is fool-proof as you say...but I'm as fool-proof as you can get! Ooops...there I go again!

[Outcast]

Sigh. I wasn't saying you're conceited.

[Hot Coco]

Sigh. Yes you did.

 

"So good for you that you lucked in, but it's a conceit to think that it's to your credit."

 

I DO think it's to my credit as I've said. And according to you, that makes me conceited. Or did I misunderstand?

[d'Arthez]

Nope, sorry. I can't be fooled

That is what is called delusional. Not conceited.

[Hot Coco]

Very funny! Ok, ok...I'm conceited AND delusional...but hey, it works for me! And what is it that I'm delusional about anyway?

[d'Arthez]

Nothing personal, HotCoco.

 

But is about the fooling part. Everyone can be fooled, unless that person would be omniscient.

Given that humans are per definition anything but omniscient, it is not hard to see that anyone can be fooled. Especially about things we have little knowledge about.

 

How would you know if part X, Y or Z of a car has been replaced by a new one for certain, by the mechanic in a garage? You just assume that he has done what he was supposed to do - most people cannot even name half the parts of a car, nor describe the function of the various parts, so I would be surprised if these people actually know what the effect is if part X, Y, or Z, is replaced by a 99.5% new one, instead of a 100% new one.

 

But it does not only apply to cars. We can think of physics, agricultural science (including the whole GM thing), politics and archeology. I wonder if you are willing to make the assumption on food. Whether or not there is a certain percentage of GMO in it - probably you do, because otherwise you would have to spend millions of dollars on testing the assumptions.

 

There has never been a person who did not make a mistake in one of these fields alone. Let alone make no mistakes in all those fields.

 

Hence.

[Hot Coco]

Uh, d'Arthez I was talking only in the context of a relationship not anything else.

 

Also, you said "everyone can be fooled." That does not mean that eveyone IS fooled. I mean everyone can be run over by a bus right? Does that mean that everyone IS run over by a bus?

 

Actually this discussion is making me want to throw myself under a bus!

[d'Arthez]

Also, you said "everyone can be fooled." That does not mean that eveyone IS fooled. I mean everyone can be run over by a bus right? Does that mean that everyone IS run over by a bus?

No. But it does not mean that because your name is Hot Coco, the bus would be shred apart, when it comes in contact with you either.

 

And in the context of relationships. Have you never been backstabbed by a friend. Been taken advantage of? I doubt that.

[Mary3]

"Nope , I cannot be fooled " : Sure you can.

 

The power of suggestion alone can make you have assumptions about someone that are not based in fact but rather by hear~say.

 

There could be a room of 100 people and I could point to the man in the while shirt and say :" Hey did you know that he is HIV infected " ?

 

It could be a mind play , a vicious rumor or just a cruel statement .

 

You would then likely ask me how I knew that.

 

I would respond " I just know " .

 

You might then think " That men could have HIV running through his body" .

 

You ask further questions and I respond appropriately to get you to be convinced that he does have that affliction.

 

The mere suggestion might make you look at him differently. Your perception of him changes slightly. Because if I can convince you enough , he can appear " different " than the others in the room.

 

You could then build a prejudice based on second hand information about someone you don't even know .

 

But how likely are you to believe something about someone based on what I said ? Its easier to convince some than others.

 

Yes ,you can be fooled. In many ways.

 

You have heard of mob mentality ? Where everyone reacts or should I say lack of reaction to someone on the street in crisis ? Where everyone joins in on the attack or everyone in the group stands by and does nothing to help the victim ?

 

Its being fooled into thinking that the victim will come out of the crisis on their own and its not really your problem. Some might take action and some might freeze out of fear.

 

So the mind fools us in many ways. Your own mind can play tricks on you. Others can fool you into believing things .

 

Unless you have a strong mind and are not easily fooled by others the likelyhood of you being fooled is greater.

[Hot Coco]

The bus would not come in contact with me. I wouldn't be fooled into letting it do that.

 

As far as being backstabbed by a friend...nope never been backstabbed by a friend. Friends don't do that. (get it? they were never a friend!)

 

Taken advantage of? Nope not that either. And you know what? I was actually date raped once. Now, I guess people could say I was taken advantage of but I never looked at it that way. In a weak moment I broke my own rule of conduct and invited a date into my apartment. I didn't know him well enough to do that. So I never even look at THAT as being taken advantage of...that implies that you have no responsibility over your actions..and I did. I could have chosen to not let him in.

 

So no, I've never been backstabbed by a friend nor taken advantage of.

[Hot Coco]

"Nope , I cannot be fooled " : Sure you can.

 

The power of suggestion alone can make you have assumptions about someone that are not based in fact but rather by hear~say.

 

There could be a room of 100 people and I could point to the man in the while shirt and say :" Hey did you know that he is HIV infected " ?

 

It could be a mind play , a vicious rumor or just a cruel statement .

 

You would then likely ask me how I knew that.

 

I would respond " I just know " .

 

You might then think " That men could have HIV running through his body" .

 

You ask further questions and I respond appropriately to get you to be convinced that he does have that affliction.

 

The mere suggestion might make you look at him differently. Your perception of him changes slightly. Because if I can convince you enough , he can appear " different " than the others in the room.

 

You could then build a prejudice based on second hand information about someone you don't even know .

 

But how likely are you to believe something about someone based on what I said ? Its easier to convince some than others.

 

Yes ,you can be fooled. In many ways.

 

You have heard of mob mentality ? Where everyone reacts or should I say lack of reaction to someone on the street in crisis ? Where everyone joins in on the attack or everyone in the group stands by and does nothing to help the victim ?

 

Its being fooled into thinking that the victim will come out of the crisis on their own and its not really your problem. Some might take action and some might freeze out of fear.

 

So the mind fools us in many ways. Your own mind can play tricks on you. Others can fool you into believing things .

 

Unless you have a strong mind and are not easily fooled by others the likelyhood of you being fooled is greater.

 

I REPEAT...I was talking only in the context of a relationship but I'll address what you said. No, I wouldn't automatically take anyone's word if they told me someone was infected with the HIV virus.

 

Mob mentality...yes, I've heard of it. But not everyone has that mentality. I usually don't go along with a crowd. What does that tell you?

 

No one can fool me into believing anything. I will believe what I want. I will disbelief what I want. People can't hypnotize me so to speak into believing a certain way.

[d'Arthez]

As far as being backstabbed by a friend...nope never been backstabbed by a friend. Friends don't do that. (get it? they were never a friend!)

That is a false argument. Because you would alter the perception of whether or not the backstabbing friend is a friend afterward, and not beforehand - which is essential. Or are you able to turn around and catch your friend, with knife and all, before anything bad occured? I doubt that.

 

Sorry to hear that you were date-raped Hot Coco. Sorry if the following seems to bear the mark of ill taste.

 

You were taken advantage of - because you were somewhat naive in the idea that it was alright to invite the guy over, and that nothing bad would happen.

I highly doubt you expected at the time that you were going to be date-raped and intent on making that happen. Only afterwards you have learnt the lesson by heart, that doing a thing like that is not a good idea.

[Hot Coco]

Well, I really have never had a friend backstab me. Seriously. I'm trying to think. I can't say that I have. I've had friends do things I didn't like but I wouldn't put it in the category of "backstabbing." I mean it really. Maybe I'm just pretty good at picking the right people to surround myself with. Maybe I can't be fooled by imposters!

 

And no, don't worry, no mark of ill-taste. We're discussing something and I brought it up as an example. Ok, no I wasn't naive and I wasn't taken advantage of. I made a decision to let him in when I didn't have enough information to know whether he was a good person or not. I took a gamble and lost. After that, I never gambled again. But no, I wasn't taken advantage of. I really don't see it that way.

[Hot Coco]

You know, this is really interesting because it's really a matter of "point of view." One person (who had been in my situation) would say that they were a victim and taken advantage of and another (like me) would say that I let it happen/let myself open to it. Can you see both sides? I don't really think one is more right than the other. I just think it's two different ways of perceiving the same situation.

[bab]

You know, this is really interesting because it's really a matter of "point of view." One person (who had been in my situation) would say that they were a victim and taken advantage of and another (like me) would say that I let it happen/let myself open to it. Can you see both sides? I don't really think one is more right than the other. I just think it's two different ways of perceiving the same situation.

 

It's probably good that you have such an outlook on it. But even though you didn't get all the information from him, he still fooled you into thinking it would be okay to let him in. Maybe if you had gotten all the info you wouldn't have let him in, and that was a mistake, but he still fooled you. Actually, you kind of make Outcast's point with this one. If you had known him longer you probably would've made a different decision.

[d'Arthez]

Can you see both sides? I don't really think one is more right than the other. I just think it's two different ways of perceiving the same situation.

There is definitely truth to that. If you feel you have been taken advantage of, it also expresses itself in anger and such. And only after the events, and a good deal of recovery most people are able to look at the events from a more detached perspective.

 

If however you feel you have let it happen, you would be more or less stoic about it. But it still does imply that your evaluation of events is such, that you are not intent to let the same thing happen again.

[Mary3]

As far as being backstabbed by a friend...nope never been backstabbed by a friend. Friends don't do that. (get it? they were never a friend!)~~~ {{ You really don't know if you have been backstabbed by a friend or not because the art of backstabbing is to do something without your knowledge and getting away with it.

 

Making you believe you are a wonderful precious human being when in fact , others could be making judgements of you right now as we speak.

They make think you are not ground based and move through life thinking no-one will ever fool you or hurt you.

Very wrong assumption.

You are at greater risk because you do not * believe * it can happen to you.

 

Taken advantage of? Nope not that either. And you know what? I was actually date raped once. Now, I guess people could say I was taken advantage of but I never looked at it that way. In a weak moment I broke my own rule of conduct and invited a date into my apartment. I didn't know him well enough to do that. So I never even look at THAT as being taken advantage of...that implies that you have no responsibility over your actions..and I did. I could have chosen to not let him in. {{~~ You absolutely were taken advantage of if that person had sex by force with you, whether you were conscious, drugged , asleep . Unless you were fully consenting and enjoying and remembering the experience , then you were raped. For which I am very sorry to hear. I think this is your coping mechanism. I too was nearly raped and it has stayed with me and taught me to never go to my car if someone is following me.

 

So no, I've never been backstabbed by a friend nor taken advantage of.{{ ~~ Once again , that you know of.....

[Hot Coco]

It's probably good that you have such an outlook on it. But even though you didn't get all the information from him, he still fooled you into thinking it would be okay to let him in. Maybe if you had gotten all the info you wouldn't have let him in, and that was a mistake, but he still fooled you. Actually, you kind of make Outcast's point with this one. If you had known him longer you probably would've made a different decision.

 

No, he never fooled me into thinking it was ok to let him in. That implies that he presented himself one way and turned out to be another way. I actually really didn't know at that point if he was a good guy or not. He didn't sway me or "fool" me into believing anything about him at that point. I had not formed my opinions about what kind of person he was yet. That's why I said I "gambled." I took a gamble and lost. He did not fool me! See what I'm saying.

 

Had I gone on another date with him I probably wouldn't have let him in. True. Outcast is putting a number though on how long you need to know someone..we don't agree there. I don't think there's a set amount of time you can put on it (knowing someone well.) It just depends on how good you are at sniffing stuff out or at perceiving a person.

 

So basically I'm still saying I gambled and lost but wasn't fooled.

[Hot Coco]

As far as being backstabbed by a friend...nope never been backstabbed by a friend. Friends don't do that. (get it? they were never a friend!)~~~ {{ You really don't know if you have been backstabbed by a friend or not because the art of backstabbing is to do something without your knowledge and getting away with it.

 

Making you believe you are a wonderful precious human being when in fact , others could be making judgements of you right now as we speak.

They make think you are not ground based and move through life thinking no-one will ever fool you or hurt you.

Very wrong assumption.

You are at greater risk because you do not * believe * it can happen to you.

 

Taken advantage of? Nope not that either. And you know what? I was actually date raped once. Now, I guess people could say I was taken advantage of but I never looked at it that way. In a weak moment I broke my own rule of conduct and invited a date into my apartment. I didn't know him well enough to do that. So I never even look at THAT as being taken advantage of...that implies that you have no responsibility over your actions..and I did. I could have chosen to not let him in. {{~~ You absolutely were taken advantage of if that person had sex by force with you, whether you were conscious, drugged , asleep . Unless you were fully consenting and enjoying and remembering the experience , then you were raped. For which I am very sorry to hear. I think this is your coping mechanism. I too was nearly raped and it has stayed with me and taught me to never go to my car if someone is following me.

 

So no, I've never been backstabbed by a friend nor taken advantage of.{{ ~~ Once again , that you know of.....

 

Mary, true never been backstabbed that I know of. That's like saying if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it fall, does it make a sound? You don't know because you're not there to hear it. If I don't know that I've been "backstabbed" then maybe I wasn't backstabbed!

 

I don't care what other people say or think of me to address your comments. As far as being at "greater risk," I don't see what that should be so. You're wrong. I DO think it can happen that's why I do everything I know how to prevent it. That's why I'm not fooled because I'm well aware all the time that I CAN be. So in actuality I'm LESS likely to be fooled.

 

As far as the rape. I'm sorry that happened to you Mary and I never said I wasn't RAPED. I was. But I was not fooled or taken advantage of. What I was, was OVERPOWERED. And you can call that a "coping mechanism" if you like (psychobabble if you ask me) or you can just call it a different perspective.

 

And you know what? What if it WERE a "coping mechanism?" Is my way of coping worse than yours? Why is my way of looking at it so bad?

 

Not everyone sees the same things the same way. Wouldn't it be boring if we all did. I can absolutely understand your point of view. It's just different from my own.

[bab]

No, he never fooled me into thinking it was ok to let him in. That implies that he presented himself one way and turned out to be another way. I actually really didn't know at that point if he was a good guy or not. He didn't sway me or "fool" me into believing anything about him at that point. I had not formed my opinions about what kind of person he was yet. That's why I said I "gambled." I took a gamble and lost. He did not fool me! See what I'm saying.

 

Had I gone on another date with him I probably wouldn't have let him in. True. Outcast is putting a number though on how long you need to know someone..we don't agree there. I don't think there's a set amount of time you can put on it (knowing someone well.) It just depends on how good you are at sniffing stuff out or at perceiving a person.

 

So basically I'm still saying I gambled and lost but wasn't fooled.

 

 

Okay. I think we just have a different definition of what it means to be fooled.

[Hot Coco]

Yes, Bab. I was thinking that too. I also think people have different ways of defining being "taken advantage of." It's interesting to me to hear about how people define things like this.

 

Being fooled, being taken advantage of...we all have our OWN personal definitions I guess of what that may mean.