Do we have a chance together?

[westernxer]

He didn't make a promise to YOU (a direct one, anyways. actions speak lounder then words...), but he did lie to his W.

 

Yep, and if he lies to his wife, chances are he'll lie to you, too.

[Sami_D]

Sami, the point is that is YOUR view. You even said "my view."

 

 

Well I probably said it was only 'my view' because I agreed with you (in advance of your comment that it was only my view)?

 

As I said... let's see what the OP's view is about the particular importance she lays on those definitions and what they mean to her.

[Sami_D]

your incrediable.. The act of having an affair with another is a promise and a lie.. Therefore 100%.

 

Promising what? To whom?

 

I have a dictonary, by the way, so no need for the pasted definitions.

[Sami_D]

He didn't make a promise to YOU (a direct one, anyways. actions speak lounder then words...), but he did lie to his W. That's still a lie. He's been lying to the person who is supposed to be the one closest to him...the woman he decided to marry.

 

He didn't promise me anything.

 

He may well have made several, if not hundreds, of 'lies by omisison' to his wife.

 

How would you relate one to the other?

[Hot Coco]

Well I probably said it was only 'my view' because I agreed with you (in advance of your comment that it was only my view)?

 

As I said... let's see what the OP's view is about the particular importance she lays on those definitions and what they mean to her.

 

All I can say to the first comment is WHAAAAAAAA????????

 

Second comment...yes I agree. We should hear what she has to say.

[Sloppy]

He didn't promise me anything.

 

He may well have made several, if not hundreds, of 'lies by omisison' to his wife.

 

How would you relate one to the other?

The point is that he lies.

What makes you think he is not/will not lie to you? We all want to believe that we are different and special, and it might as well be the case, but they won't change. Liar is a liar.

[Sami_D]

The crux of the problem is here. The relationship is SECRET. It's a shadow relationship; a fantasy in comparison to MM's real, daily life. Thus an emotional risk to Malifecent.

 

Unless he tells his wife, and unless you VERIFY his disclosure to her as factual....then, you're just rolling the dice.

 

Old Europe made a FANTASTIC point on another thread the other day. The summary of which is....that as long as he's lying to his wife, he's hedging his bets. He's leaving his foot in the door, just in case he changes his mind.

 

Yes, that was on my thread, and I TOTALLY made the connection with this question posed here.

 

I am not sure that (in some cases) it matters or is relevant whether the MM tells the wife about the OW. The reason for this is that there are varying reasons for a particular act. In this case, it might be expedient to NOT tell the W because the MM thinks that she might get vindictive and refuse access (or be difficult about access) if she thinks there is another woman involved. On the other hand, the MM might not want to disclose the existence of the OW because he feels it would lose him brownie points with the W if he is chosing to play one 'life' off against another. Two different motives, one action. There is NO way that we, as external arbiters with restricted access to the facts, can possibly know which is true. All we can do is ask the OP about what's happened, what he's said, and make educated guesses.

[Sami_D]

1) is she right in that? Well, I don't think it's really a question of her being "right" or wrong in that. If that's not what she thinks is a good and sound foundation for a relationship for HER, then YES, she's right. We're not discussing whether it's right or wrong in general. Just right or wrong for her particular set of values.

 

2) I don't know if I'm right in that that's what she believes. That's why I said it would be good to hear from her. I'm only reading in between the lines that it IS what she believes. If this really sat well with her I think she wouldn't give a hoot whether he's cheating or not and whether she's the OW or not.

 

Both of these responses really need OP's input before any sensible further comment cam be made.

[Hot Coco]

Yes, that was on my thread, and I TOTALLY made the connection with this question posed here.

 

I am not sure that (in some cases) it matters or is relevant whether the MM tells the wife about the OW. The reason for this is that there are varying reasons for a particular act. In this case, it might be expedient to NOT tell the W because the MM thinks that she might get vindictive and refuse access (or be difficult about access) if she thinks there is another woman involved. On the other hand, the MM might not want to disclose the existence of the OW because he feels it would lose him brownie points with the W if he is chosing to play one 'life' off against another. Two different motives, one action. There is NO way that we, as external arbiters with restricted access to the facts, can possibly know which is true. All we can do is ask the OP about what's happened, what he's said, and make educated guesses.

 

I for one, think that she gave enough information for us to answer the questions she posed. She did not ask us to delve deeper into the grey areas, etc. Her questions were very straightforward. And we DO have enough information to answer them.

[Sami_D]

The point is that he lies.

What makes you think he is not/will not lie to you? We all want to believe that we are different and special, and it might as well be the case, but they won't change. Liar is a liar.

 

The point is NOT that 'he lies'

 

The point was that not all MM make promises.

 

The question about lying is totally separate.

[Sami_D]

I for one, think that she gave enough information for us to answer the questions she posed. She did not ask us to delve deeper into the grey areas, etc. Her questions were very straightforward. And we DO have enough information to answer them.

 

Do we know whether there are children involved, and therefore any question about access to them? No.

[Hot Coco]

The point is NOT that 'he lies'

 

The point was that not all MM make promises.

 

The question about lying is totally separate.

 

So if he lies and makes no promises, that's ok?

[westernxer]

There is NO way that we, as external arbiters with restricted access to the facts, can possibly know which is true. All we can do is ask the OP about what's happened, what he's said, and make educated guesses.

 

Educated guesses? About what?

 

Different people, same old shiit.

[Hot Coco]

Do we know whether there are children involved, and therefore any question about access to them? No.

 

It's irrelevant as far as answering the questions she asked. Let's stick to what the OP asked here. She asked if he's cheating. No one disagrees on that. He IS. She asked if she's the OW. No one disagrees on that either. She IS.

 

Whether he has kids or not is irrelevant in the context of her questions.

[Ladyjane14]

I am not sure that (in some cases) it matters or is relevant whether the MM tells the wife about the OW.

 

I get what you're saying Sami.....but for the sake of the OW's emotional investment, she's NOT in safe waters until the wife knows about her.

 

A man shouldn't be able to 'try on' another woman like she was a new set of clothes. And a woman who allows a MM to do that, is taking her chances in terms of her own emotional well-being. She makes herself complicit to any emotional pain she suffers as a result.....because she allowed it.

 

He's either done with the old relationship, or he isn't. In Malifecent's case, MM says he's done....but she's not seeing ANY actions to match his words.

[Sami_D]

So if he lies and makes no promises, that's ok?

 

Whether it's 'OK' or not isn't the point.

 

If you scroll back, you will see that it's Art_Critic's argument, not mine.

[Malifecent]

Thanks for your feedback guys, it's brutal and very much appreciated. The truth is I don't really want to be the ow, I was hoping that we could start our new relationship just as his old one was ending, but it's never that black and white when there is a child involved. So I'm in fuzzy grey land. I guess I don't really mind being the ow that much or I wouldn't let myself be....would I?

Am I going to keep being the ow now? I don't know....honestly. It hurts. I'm fairly certain that the marriage is ending no matter if I'm in the picture or not. They are literally talking about the moving apart and the division of financial things as I'm typing this so I see progress. Maybe I will see where this goes. I don't think he's lying to me...if anything I think he is confused and he's lying to himself and me inadvertantly...or maybe I'm just a sucker. This is all new to me and I know I sound totally naive. Thats what I would think if I was reading this...

 

Whats NC anyways? No communication?

[Hot Coco]

Let's not forget that he told her he's been "separated" for a year. I can't stop laughing! Separated means separate DWELLINGS! It doesn't mean separate rooms in the same house (if that's even true!)

[Sami_D]

Educated guesses? About what?

 

Different people, same old shiit.

 

Well, how would you define 'same old shiit?' If everything is the same old same old, then why comment at all? Or are only certain circumstances the 'same old shiit'?

[Art_Critic]

Whether it's 'OK' or not isn't the point.

 

If you scroll back, you will see that it's Art_Critic's argument, not mine.

No.. YOU turned it into an Argument Sami..

I think if you look back at your affair with an OPEN mind and not a closed mind you will find promises he made you.. even indirect..

 

In order for him to not have made promises to you he would have had to say something like this..

 

I am married.. I WILL NEVER get a divorce .. We can only have sex and I will never marry you.. You and I can never be a couple.. NEVER....

I will use you for sex and go back to my wife that I love..

 

If he said anything other than that to you then he made indirect promises of himself to you

[Sami_D]

I get what you're saying Sami.....but for the sake of the OW's emotional investment, she's NOT in safe waters until the wife knows about her.

 

A man shouldn't be able to 'try on' another woman like she was a new set of clothes. And a woman who allows a MM to do that, is taking her chances in terms of her own emotional well-being. She makes herself complicit to any emotional pain she suffers as a result.....because she allowed it.

 

He's either done with the old relationship, or he isn't. In Malifecent's case, MM says he's done....but she's not seeing ANY actions to match his words.

 

I Totally agree in this case, hence my original comments regarding my initial reaction to the story as we know it. Sounds to me like a case of hedging bets... but we don't know the whole situation as yet.

 

And no, an OW isn't safe until the W knows about her. But that doesn't have to be right off. There ARE certain circumstances in which ( I believe ) it's OK for the MM to not tell W about the OW. Tough luck if the OW isn't safe till that's over.

[Sami_D]

It's irrelevant as far as answering the questions she asked. Let's stick to what the OP asked here. She asked if he's cheating. No one disagrees on that. He IS. She asked if she's the OW. No one disagrees on that either. She IS.

 

Whether he has kids or not is irrelevant in the context of her questions.

 

 

Her main question was... is there any future.

 

I would say that... (to the extent I've already argued, and go back to see I had questions and reservations) that we DO need to know whether there are reasons why he hasn't moved out already... some of those could be to do with children.

 

Regarding a future with this man, I think... that his honesty in saying he needs time, and his circumstances, need to tally, in order to make any kind of judgement on this situation.

 

Yes?

[Ladyjane14]

There ARE certain circumstances in which ( I believe ) it's OK for the MM to not tell W about the OW.

 

Maybe that's okay with the MM. I imagine that his wife would have something of a problem with it.

[Sami_D]

No.. YOU turned it into an Argument Sami..

I think if you look back at your affair with an OPEN mind and not a closed mind you will find promises he made you.. even indirect..

 

In order for him to not have made promises to you he would have had to say something like this..

 

I am married.. I WILL NEVER get a divorce .. We can only have sex and I will never marry you.. You and I can never be a couple.. NEVER....

I will use you for sex and go back to my wife that I love..

 

If he said anything other than that to you then he made indirect promises of himself to you

 

Well first off, this thread isn't about my relationship.

 

Secondly, I really can't see how anything you have said here holds up to any kind of scrutiny. So, if someone doesn't say they Won't do something, they're actually promising that they Will do it? Err... ok.

 

Good luck with living your life by those assumptions.

[Hot Coco]

Her main question was... is there any future.

 

I would say that... (to the extent I've already argued, and go back to see I had questions and reservations) that we DO need to know whether there are reasons why he hasn't moved out already... some of those could be to do with children.

 

Regarding a future with this man, I think... that his honesty in saying he needs time, and his circumstances, need to tally, in order to make any kind of judgement on this situation.

 

Yes?

 

No. The reasons for him not leaving do not matter. He is still there. He is still cheating. If it smells like a duck, quacks like a damned duck...it's a DUCK!

 

Did she ask if there's a future with him? I only remember the 2 questions of is he cheating and is she the OW. As far as if there's a future..she'd have a HELL of a lot better chance of replying YES to that if it weren't for one teensy little detail...HE'S MARRIED AND STILL LIVES WITH HIS WIFE AND THEIR CHILD!

 

Ok, I'm done.