basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Hey you two! Take it outside! Listen: Mz Pixie and padameckla, please meet TonyP and scobro. TonyP and scobro, please meet Mz Pixie and padameckla does anyone have any further thoughts on the original post from Zetter ( who surely is hiding by now, afraid of being hit by a flying lamp or ashtray... ) Ah Trimmer I gotta luv ya.. :bunny: good refereeing.. Thank you.. I won't throw any flying objects. I gave that up when I filed for divorce. :lmao: Link to post Share on other sites
bkz Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Wow, guys - let's take a breath here... Another thing to realize is to be careful making sweeping generalizations supported by a single situation. bkz says: Well, some women do, some women don't. The counterpoint to this is, how many times have you seen a woman post "I shouldn't have to spell it out, he should just get it." But I can listen to bkz's comment thoughtfully, consider the degree to which it applies to my situation or not, and not feel like I have to bounce back and attack him personally because I know that the truth of any one situation is specific to that situation and lies somewhere inbetween. My situation does not necessarily equal yours, and when we both understand that, we can still talk about our respective situations and even disagree respectfully, without projecting onto each other personally. Yeah your right. Guess its just my experiance I was reffering to and also something ive read alot about from others in there sitches, but I guess I heard that more in what they were saying because I could relate to it. For what its worth, I think Mz. Pixie has some great insite to share and ive appritiated it VERY much her posting on my thread. She tried to help me see things from another perspective and provided me with some excellent info/advice. Link to post Share on other sites
tinktronik Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I couldn't leave. I didn't live in a city big enough that had resources. I also didn't have the money to be able to leave.. I worked full time and my mother in law was my daycare. If I would have walked out I would have lost my daycare plus my job. Where would I have lived there wasn't anyplace in that small damn town to live in that my income would have paid for. and I made too much money to get any kind of assistance except WIC. Some people think it is so easy to just leave.. Its NOT... My family couldn't help me either. NONE of us had extra income to be able to help one another then... You don't know what hell is until you are in a hole with no ladder.. I left my abusive husband,and mine was just as bad as yours,even bringing home women to have sex with with me and my children at home while he f@3#ked them in the bedroom. I finnaly reached out to the domestic battery hotline...made my way to another town 3 young children in tow (one of them only 2 months) and moved into the battered womens shelter.No car , no home and 3 kids... I found a job that I walked to , got restraining orders and hid for a year.I have worked my way to at least a semblence of a life without a man to help me..And I dident need to cheat to do it.There is always another way. Link to post Share on other sites
Mz. Pixie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Tink- That was your way out, it's not always so simple for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 ..And I dident need to cheat to do it.There is always another way. You still may have had more then I did in basics of a foundation to stand on. Your may have had to endure about the same torment as I had but I think you may have had more of a foundation from your upbringing then me.. The kind of upbringing I had was loneliness with little guidance and education about life. My peers use to tell me I would be a whore, trailor trash, no man would ever want me. I had kids tell me that no one loved me and no one would. I have been torn down my whole life.. Even when I was a senior in high school I was ridiculed that I would have a failed life with men.. NO one had faith in me because I couldn't understand relationships and how they worked. I was the only child from a broken home in the community.. I was the outcast.. I had snipettes of happiness growing up with my grandmother; she was the only one who seemed to reach out to me and wanted to show me love.. When you are a child and you dont' know what is right and wrong how the hell are you suppose to understand it when your an adult if he hadn't really learned it.. The odds of me growing up to be a responsible and mature adult were slim.. My brother struggles in life. He abuses drugs, is an alcoholic, has a anger management problem, he has terrible coping skills. I could of made the choices he did to kill the dysfunction in my life; try numb the pain.. But I didn't; I chose to learn from my mistakes. My affair happened for many reasons. No it wasn't right.. Yes it was a choice once I realized what was happening. (logically). I made the choice to let it go on for 6 months. But I ALSO MADE THE CHOICE TO END IT... it was my choice to end it not the other mans. He didn't want it to end... I did.. People who have cheated and carry the guilt, regret and burden of it don't need it smashed into their faces.. We are our worse enemies and those of us who feel the guilt beat ourselves up worse then anyone else can. You don't need to grind it in any deeper and pound the nails in our coffins.. NOT everyone in bad relationships chose to cheat.. That is understandable. But that doesnt give you the right to pound us in the face for our actions. Those of us who know our mistakes do a good enough job of that ourselves... There are so many dynamics to my story that I could write a book about it all.. I can't possibly post everything here nor will I attempt too try put it all in here.. I have had my many many many years of counceling with my Parish Priests (3 of them) and Several Psychologists (3 of them also).. They told me to not be so hard on myself. They said I was punishing myself worse then anyone could. I was worse on myself then my xh was in his abuse according to the therapists.. When a person doesnt have knowledge, skills and beliefs to make decsions by how can they make the right choice????? I don't think a baby can drive a car!! Link to post Share on other sites
scobro Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Wow this is turning into a debate cool. This really has nothing to do with how I am responsible for my marriage ending and I don't know if my wife cheated for sure she says she didn't but who knows and that is besides the point.If I was happily married still I would still feel the same about people that cheat.This is about how I feel it is wrong to cheat on your mate and I myself and a few others here say no matter what you SHOULD not cheat leave the marriage then find all the men/women you want.Now,Ms pixie and Padameclkla seem to have taken offence to the accusations that cheating is morally wrong because both of them have cheated on their mates so obviously they are going to try and defend why they did cheat but it doesn't matter you did it and it was wrong to me maybe not to everyone but to me it is and you cannot say I am wrong to have this opinion(even if your advice is well respected).I realize that in one of the situations it was abusive and you could not leave and I am sorry for that but we are talking about cheating regardless of the situation.Now you both cheated and were wrong to do it only in my opinion that's all and Ms P you could be a legend here and offer the best advice and that's great but it does not change the fact that I think what you did by cheating is morally wrong.Now you both are trying to justify why you cheated by stating not having your needs met,emotional starvation and being assaulted these reasons are horrible and I totally see why you would do what you did but i still think it's wrong and you guys think it was right or were in your fog .We each have an opinion about it and thats it.Nobody is right or wrong and everybody is entitled to their own opinion.You both think it was justified and I do not and not because I am still in pain from my marriage ending. I have always thought this about cheating in a relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
tinktronik Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 You still may have had more then I did in basics of a foundation to stand on. Your may have had to endure about the same torment as I had but I think you may have had more of a foundation from your upbringing then me.. The kind of upbringing I had was loneliness with little guidance and education about life. My peers use to tell me I would be a whore, trailor trash, no man would ever want me. I had kids tell me that no one loved me and no one would. I have been torn down my whole life.. Even when I was a senior in high school I was ridiculed that I would have a failed life with men.. NO one had faith in me because I couldn't understand relationships and how they worked. I was the only child from a broken home in the community.. I was the outcast.. I had snipettes of happiness growing up with my grandmother; she was the only one who seemed to reach out to me and wanted to show me love.. When you are a child and you dont' know what is right and wrong how the hell are you suppose to understand it when your an adult if he hadn't really learned it.. The odds of me growing up to be a responsible and mature adult were slim.. My brother struggles in life. He abuses drugs, is an alcoholic, has a anger management problem, he has terrible coping skills. I could of made the choices he did to kill the dysfunction in my life; try numb the pain.. But I didn't; I chose to learn from my mistakes. My affair happened for many reasons. No it wasn't right.. Yes it was a choice once I realized what was happening. (logically). I made the choice to let it go on for 6 months. But I ALSO MADE THE CHOICE TO END IT... it was my choice to end it not the other mans. He didn't want it to end... I did.. People who have cheated and carry the guilt, regret and burden of it don't need it smashed into their faces.. We are our worse enemies and those of us who feel the guilt beat ourselves up worse then anyone else can. You don't need to grind it in any deeper and pound the nails in our coffins.. NOT everyone in bad relationships chose to cheat.. That is understandable. But that doesnt give you the right to pound us in the face for our actions. Those of us who know our mistakes do a good enough job of that ourselves... There are so many dynamics to my story that I could write a book about it all.. I can't possibly post everything here nor will I attempt too try put it all in here.. I have had my many many many years of counceling with my Parish Priests (3 of them) and Several Psychologists (3 of them also).. They told me to not be so hard on myself. They said I was punishing myself worse then anyone could. I was worse on myself then my xh was in his abuse according to the therapists.. When a person doesnt have knowledge, skills and beliefs to make decsions by how can they make the right choice????? I don't think a baby can drive a car!! I am not here to judge you,nor here to smash it in your face just to make the point that cheating is a choice and that no one can be forced to carry a belief or choose a path by someone else.I also agree that life does run in a cycle ,of our experiences and knoledge.If you have questions about my background ,i would suggest you check my other posts.Yes I too grew up in a home of abuse drunkeness and drug use also with one parent being mentally ill and absentee fathers .I say fathers b/c me and my siblings all have different fathers .My mother was violent ,this tends to attract violent men.Me and my siblings were all abused sexually multiple times with my mothers knoledge ,and it dident stop mostly b/c she was too lazy to care. Those of us who cme from an abusive home as children are more likely to carry the cycle out.It sounds like you did that for a while but have choosen not to continue it out. I for one never graduated past the ninth grade(untill much later I got a ged and some college ) . Lots of people get "dealt a bad hand ,you just have to realize you are not that hand.I wish you the best in life and I hope you dident feel as if I was attacking you personally ,I do understand how it is to be in that situation.But I still hold to Choices and Self-control.We all have the same 24 hrs everyday.My brothe too is a drug addict and at 21 has spent time in prison.But those were his choices. Link to post Share on other sites
Mz. Pixie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 The difference is, I never said what I did was right so I'm unsure how you can say that I did?? I said I was wrong, repeatedly. Cheating is wrong, and I would NEVER EVER do it again. Also, let me add- it's my belief that until the divorce papers are signed it's cheating. Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Cheating is wrong. Period. I never disagreed with that at all. I don't think it is appropriate for others to judge us as being cold, heartless and uncaring. Mz. Pixie and I have both admitted what we did was wrong we never said it was right. But the attacks we both have recieved are unjustifiable. NO one knows us so we both feel we have the right to defend ourselves when we are being attacked so harshly. It has happened in other threads also. Typically when others hear the reasons why we chose to do wrong they can understand a little better why. But it still doesnt condone our actions. We both know this. But do we really deserve to be put in front of a firing squad? Do we not deserve to be heard too? Link to post Share on other sites
tinktronik Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Tink- That was your way out, it's not always so simple for everyone. Ms. Pixie , OK,,,,, This was in fact the most difficult way to get out of a bad situation!!! Every state has battered womens shelters! The domestic hotline is nationwide in the US.It is not easy to subject yourself to taking nothing with you, just a handfull of clothes from a whole life and three small children to a place youve never been ,are you kiding me. It is not easy to walk in the winter to find employment , it is not easy to build a life for four with no job skills , no nothing , litteraly nothing! It would have been much much easier to move in with with the guy who was hitting on me at work.That would have been the easy way out!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
scobro Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I think we all need a big group hug. or sit beside a campfire and sing Kum by ya. What do ya think? In the words of the beaten Rodney King "can't we all just get along"? Link to post Share on other sites
scobro Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 It would have been much much easier to move in with with the guy who was hitting on me at work.That would have been the easy way out!!!!! OOOOUCH THAT HURTS! UH OH LOOK OUT! RUN FOR COVER EVERYBODY SHE IS GONNA BLOW!!! Link to post Share on other sites
tinktronik Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Cheating is wrong. Period. I never disagreed with that at all. I don't think it is appropriate for others to judge us as being cold, heartless and uncaring. Mz. Pixie and I have both admitted what we did was wrong we never said it was right. But the attacks we both have recieved are unjustifiable. NO one knows us so we both feel we have the right to defend ourselves when we are being attacked so harshly. It has happened in other threads also. Typically when others hear the reasons why we chose to do wrong they can understand a little better why. But it still doesnt condone our actions. We both know this. But do we really deserve to be put in front of a firing squad? Do we not deserve to be heard too? of course you deserve to be heard. Are you really being attacked personally????I havent tried to box you in in any way .I dident even say what you did was wrong, cheating is always hurtful, but wrong versus right whats really the differents? It was simply one path to take, it was the one you chose.Thats all ,I dont think it really matters what descisions youve made just be aware of the longterm of the descisions you make now.In the end you simply took the paths you took , we all do. Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Ms. Pixie , OK,,,,, This was in fact the most difficult way to get out of a bad situation!!! Every state has battered womens shelters! The domestic hotline is nationwide in the US.It is not easy to subject yourself to taking nothing with you, just a handfull of clothes from a whole life and three small children to a place youve never been ,are you kiding me. It is not easy to walk in the winter to find employment , it is not easy to build a life for four with no job skills , no nothing , litteraly nothing! It would have been much much easier to move in with with the guy who was hitting on me at work.That would have been the easy way out!!!!! I can understand your situation. I had a gf that did this with 4 kids. I didn't have the knowledge this even exhisted. I was very nieve until I was much older and found people who educated me about it all. Sometimes I feel like I grew up in some remote jungle and have never met the outside world.. (Maybe that has something to do with daydreaming as a little girl to escape my harsh reality. i closed myself off from input.) Because of what you endured you are stronger. You are wiser.. We all learn at different paces and in different ways.. Once I was free I became like a sponge sucking up as much info and education about relationships as possible.. I still dig for info. I'm always in constant motion learning and trying to understand things in my life and about myself.. Its one of my lifes priorities.. No matter whether we cheated or were cheated on we all need to look at ourselves in all of our situations and learn from them. Learn about ourselves.... Link to post Share on other sites
tinktronik Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 OOOOUCH THAT HURTS! UH OH LOOK OUT! RUN FOR COVER EVERYBODY SHE IS GONNA BLOW!!! lol, ok i give up... Link to post Share on other sites
Mz. Pixie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I wasn't saying your situation was that easy, that certainly came out wrong. I know about struggling as well. When I ended my A and tried to work through my issues I decided the marriage wasn't working. I couldn't get my exhusband to leave the house to just spend the night with his parents and he kept locking me in the bedroom. I finally ended up moving out. I had no family here. Every friend I had turned their back on me. I had to beg two co workers to help me move. When I moved out I didn't have much, even though I'd worked for everything in that home just like my exhusband did. He didn't think I would or COULD do it but I proved him wrong. We both have alot to be proud of. Many women don't have the guts to leave and stay in a unhappy or abusive marriage instead. Hats off to women who survive! Sco- I was about to say let's all sing ku ba ya! Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I don't think we have that much disagreement here. It sounds like everyone wants to be listened to and understood instead of being judged with a one-size fits all proclamation. Fine with me... My statement of principles: 1. I accept 50% of the responsibility for the condition of my marriage right up to the end. 2. I understand now - whether or not I knew it at the time, and whether or not we successfully communicated about it - that my wife had needs that were not being met. (Assigning proportion of responsibility to that breakdown of communication is a very individual thing, and for the purpose of this general statement, I will, for now, withhold my opinion of what my own percentage is...) 3. Notwithstanding #2, I do not accept any responsibility for my wife's decision to go outside our marriage before divorcing me to get her needs met, and I believe that decision to be wrong. Anyone on either "side" take issue with any of those? ( and scobro - I apologize, I didn't intend to minimize your opinion by implying that you held it because you were in pain from your marriage ending... ) Poor Zetter... Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Excellent Post Trimmer.. WOW... typically the person scorned doesn't come around like you have. You impress me... You definetly show you have done lots of hard work... Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well, lest you think too highly of me, let me add two more items to my list: 4. I'm no saint. 5. I'm still pretty pissed. (but I am working on it...) (and thank you for the kind words... ) Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well, lest you think too highly of me, let me add two more items to my list: 4. I'm no saint. 5. I'm still pretty pissed. (but I am working on it...) HEY believe me.. I give you a lot of credit for just trying... You ARE working on it all.. Many people don't.. They don't attempt to heal and chose to move forward.. My xh cheated on me 7 times and I did it once. He still after 8 years stabbs it litterally in my face and he doesnt take accountability for his own affairs. I have moved on from it. He hasnt. I don't assult him with his actions he does me. So I say BRAVO Trimmer... You are a stronger person and will be much more healthier. I will bet to say you will be less harsh in your criticisms towards people also.. I do give you much credit. You speak with wisdom from experience.. Don't ever give up trying and growing.. Link to post Share on other sites
basscatcher Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well, lest you think too highly of me, let me add two more items to my list: 4. I'm no saint. 5. I'm still pretty pissed. (but I am working on it...) HEY believe me.. I give you a lot of credit for just trying... You ARE working on it all.. Many people don't.. They don't attempt to heal and chose to move forward.. My xh cheated on me 7 times and I did it once. He still after 8 years stabbs it litterally in my face and he doesnt take accountability for his own affairs. I have moved on from it. He hasnt. I don't assult him with his actions he does me. So I say BRAVO Trimmer...You are a poster child.. You are a stronger person and will be much more healthier. I will bet to say you will be less harsh in your criticisms towards people also.. I do give you much credit. You speak with wisdom from experience.. Don't ever give up trying and growing.. Link to post Share on other sites
Mz. Pixie Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I do have to say Trimmer, I am also continually impressed with your posts. Please hang around LS, we can use you here! Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Ahhh - you guys are gonna kill my street cred with the boys! :laugh: ( But secretly, thanks ) Link to post Share on other sites
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