How much advance notice when leaving an unconventional job?

[Alpacalia]

I had a question as a follow up to this thread and how much notice should you give when resigning?

Communicating With Employees (after hours) - Business and Professional Relationships - LoveShack.org

There is a sense of delicateness in this situation because of the health of my employer and the fact that I have grown to appreciate him more as a friend rather than an employer.

After pushing back on after-hours calls, the situation has improved. My time hasn't been further encroached upon after hours, and I even received a generous work bonus (which I wasn't expecting and was pleasantly surprised since it's part-time and more like freelance employment).

Cognitively, he is declining. He mentioned last week that he isn't sure how much time he has left.

Though I should think of this like another job, I don't. There is a soft spot in my heart for him. The day he passes away will be terribly sad for me, but I know it's inevitable.

My other concern is that this job will eventually be lost to me. I am currently working on other assignments as well. This particular job is significant to me more so than others. Getting offered a job and then leaving him in the lurch would not feel right.

Radiology school is another issue. My pre-requisites are finished, and I have applied to the program, which entails clinical rounds and further education. 1 out of 5 students are randomly selected for this lottery program, and I won't find out if I was selected until the end of this semester. As I wait, I'm working towards furthering my healthcare background. However, I cannot imagine working full time and training in radiology at the same time (when I'm selected).

The fact that if/when I am selected for the radiology training program, I plan to resign from this particular position. My time is mostly dedicated to this particular job and I cannot see myself doing both at the same time. At some point I am going to have to tell him that once I am selected for the program, our work relationship will end. I am just not sure how to approach it. He knows I am in school and working towards a career in radiology so he already has a general idea but we've never actually discussed the timing of it.

[glows]

Are you considering resigning earlier? The most notice I’ve given was one year which was ridiculous and they were still struggling after I left and gave ample notice, repeating that it would be time soon. My only suggestion is to be firm about your resignation and be professional about no longer offering those services after you resign.

Have good boundaries and move on with your other endeavours. We meet people in our work lives who can change us and boost our careers for the better but the key is always professionalism. Encourage him to stick with his new hire if there is someone else. If he cannot respect that distance yourself. You can stay in touch but maintain your professional boundaries. Leave room to grow and focus on other goals.

[Alpacalia]

6 minutes ago, glows said:

Are you considering resigning earlier? The most notice I’ve given was one year which was ridiculous and they were still struggling after I left and gave ample notice, repeating that it would be time soon. My only suggestion is to be firm about your resignation and be professional about no longer offering those services after you resign.

Have good boundaries and move on with your other endeavours. We meet people in our work lives who can change us and boost our careers for the better but the key is always professionalism. Encourage him to stick with his new hire if there is someone else. If he cannot respect that distance yourself. You can stay in touch but maintain your professional boundaries. Leave room to grow and focus on other goals.

Thanks for your helpful feedback.

My plan is to resign once I am accepted to the radiology program (which the educational institution will announce in June this year). Depending on the results of a lottery, I could be selected this year, next year, or the year after (the program is open to eligible students only once a year - they are selected randomly). The fall would be my first semester if I am accepted this year (I won't know until June), so I'd start then. 

It is very considerate to give one year's notice. I imagine they relied heavily on you.

After the last time I talked to him about his calls after hours, he has been pretty good about not overstepping. I was recently away for two weeks on vacation and he did not call me once.

The general experience has been very positive because he is fairly flexible with a lot of things. 

Informing him now of my plans to resign if I am selected this year for the radiology program would be more of a courtesy and a heads up. 

 

 

 

 

[introverted1]

15 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Informing him now of my plans to resign if I am selected this year for the radiology program would be more of a courtesy and a heads up.

I say do this (give him the heads up).

How much time will you have between being notified of acceptance and starting the program?

If you are not accepted in the first lottery, is it your intention to continue to keep working for this man or do you plan to resign regardless? These answers can/should be part of your conversation with him. Hopefully you can work out a mutually agreeable process.

[Els]

Does your contract state a minimum notice term?

If it's basically freelance employment and not a permanent job, I don't think anyone can reasonably expect notice this far in advance. After all, isn't that the main benefit of freelance contracting for the worker - the flexibility? If the employer had really cared about your long-term prospects in that role, he would have offered you permanent employment, with all the additional costs that that entails. Given that he didn't, I'd say that this situation is basically a "every person for his/herself" one. Take care of yourself and do what is best for yourself - he'll do what is best for him.

[Alpacalia]

4 hours ago, Els said:

Does your contract state a minimum notice term?

If it's basically freelance employment and not a permanent job, I don't think anyone can reasonably expect notice this far in advance. After all, isn't that the main benefit of freelance contracting for the worker - the flexibility? If the employer had really cared about your long-term prospects in that role, he would have offered you permanent employment, with all the additional costs that that entails. Given that he didn't, I'd say that this situation is basically a "every person for his/herself" one. Take care of yourself and do what is best for yourself - he'll do what is best for him.

Thanks Els! No, it does not.

It's part-time. I can't do full-time right now with this particular job and with school in addition to the other projects I am working on. I specifically took this particular position on that basis.

This is a bit delicate for me because he has a fatal form of a particular cognitive disease. Giving him as much advance notice as possible if I am accepted this year into the radiology program is to give him sufficient time to find a replacement (as opposed to the standard two weeks notice). Even though he is declining health wise.

Anyway, I think I have a good idea how to approach it. Thanks everyone!

 

 

[glows]

He’s likely very aware of your situation and intention to quit when you start courses. Otherwise I’d mention it briefly out of courtesy.

He has doctors and professionals, people trained to step in and provide physical and mental support including a POA, I’m assuming, who will make decisions on his behalf in regards to his finances/estate and his cognitive disease. I’d put some distance here and start getting a move on - break away and look forward to your new plans. It sounds very exciting!

[Alpacalia]

7 minutes ago, glows said:

He’s likely very aware of your situation and intention to quit when you start courses. Otherwise I’d mention it briefly out of courtesy.

He has doctors and professionals, people trained to step in and provide physical and mental support including a POA, I’m assuming, who will make decisions on his behalf in regards to his finances/estate and his cognitive disease. I’d put some distance here and start getting a move on - break away and look forward to your new plans. It sounds very exciting!

Thanks!

Yes he does. He wanted me to take over bookkeeping in addition to my administrative duties but I declined. He has people for that already. We were talking the other day and he asked me how I felt about death and I said, well, I am going to miss you when you go. I don't particularly handle it well, but then who does really. Yes, I am looking forward to getting accepted in the radiology program and hopefully I'll be selected this year. Fingers crossed!

[glows]

6 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Thanks!

Yes he does. He wanted me to take over bookkeeping in addition to my administrative duties but I declined. He has people for that already. We were talking the other day and he asked me how I felt about death and I said, well, I am going to miss you when you go. I don't particularly handle it well, but then who does really. Yes, I am looking forward to getting accepted in the radiology program and hopefully I'll be selected this year. Fingers crossed!

Do you think getting it all out in private with yourself is a helpful way to process letting go? Eminent death has a lot of weight and can bring up a lot of questions about end of life or our own end of life. I could be wrong but I’m sensing that you care about this person and are also processing his health/personal situation. 

Journalling can help. Therapy or more specifically grief counselling helps too. I wouldn’t underestimate the relief talking with someone who has normalized end of life and death. I don’t feel there’s enough of that as people in general fear it and want to avoid awkwardness in social situations so inadvertently also avoid addressing it.

I hope you are selected this year. Fingers crossed for you too.

[Johnjohnson2017]

If he is the owner of the business, what's the plan after his death? Is he in the process of selling the business? Who will be taking over the business when he cannot function anymore? Does he have family/wife, kids?

Give him as much notice as you are comfortable giving, to your best estimate. I had an employee who decided to enroll in nursing school. So I knew two years in advance that she would be leaving. I still waited about a month before her final day in order to start looking for a new employee. 

[Alpacalia]

45 minutes ago, glows said:

Do you think getting it all out in private with yourself is a helpful way to process letting go? Eminent death has a lot of weight and can bring up a lot of questions about end of life or our own end of life. I could be wrong but I’m sensing that you care about this person and are also processing his health/personal situation. 

Journalling can help. Therapy or more specifically grief counselling helps too. I wouldn’t underestimate the relief talking with someone who has normalized end of life and death. I don’t feel there’s enough of that as people in general fear it and want to avoid awkwardness in social situations so inadvertently also avoid addressing it.

I hope you are selected this year. Fingers crossed for you too.

In private, yes. I care about him as a human being. This is something I will have to adjust to as I get older (death) and also the field of diagnostic imaging. Being in healthcare, it will come up often, so I need to learn to separate the two.

I do think about my own mortality. Obviously, it's not something I like to think about often. When I was young, I had a couple close calls.

Thank you for your suggestions. I will take them into consideration. I appreciate it!

It's true that people in general fear awkwardness in social situations and, as a result, avoid discussing it.

An old classmate is a death doula, which I’ve not heard of before. She explained to me that she helped people cross over to death. My first reaction was, "huh?" I thought she meant suicide initially.

It struck me as pretty remarkable.

50 minutes ago, Johnjohnson2017 said:

If he is the owner of the business, what's the plan after his death? Is he in the process of selling the business? Who will be taking over the business when he cannot function anymore? Does he have family/wife, kids?

Give him as much notice as you are comfortable giving, to your best estimate. I had an employee who decided to enroll in nursing school. So I knew two years in advance that she would be leaving. I still waited about a month before her final day in order to start looking for a new employee. 

Thank you very much. Within the next couple of months, I will let him know. I won't go into much specifics, but the job I provide for him won't be needed after he passes.

[Alpacalia]

He extended an offer of a permanent position at the company for me, even after he passes, but in a different role. He expressed his fatherly concern for my future, however, I remain determined to pursue radiology as per my plans.

I told him that even though I appreciated the offer.

I also started attending grief counseling. As his time draws to a close, it has been a significant challenge.

[Lotsgoingon]

Wow, what a challenging, baffling situation you face. My heart goes out to you.

I figured he might say something to you given how close he is to you--though sometimes that is a bad assumption and lots of people near death stay in denial about death and end up leaving survivors in the lurch. I have had relatives not have wills, which is a pain in the rear for survivors. Actually it ends up costing survivors lots of money in legal fees!

I say the most important thing here is to be authentic and connected. Connect first--when you start talking to him--and explain later. We often fear that tears will make the person feel bad. Actually in my experience tears and emotion communicate closeness and love and the other person will tell you if tears or choking up bother them. From closeness and love, you then tell the person what you want to tell them.

I haven't been in your exact situation but I have been in similar kind of situations. And the thing I remember is that in suppressing tears, I tried to rely on words alone and I hardened myself (which is distancing) and the words then became kinda cold and clinical and didn't communicate my closeness to and love for the person.

Sounds to me like you are thinking about and processing this matter in exactly the right way, in all its complexity, taking your interests seriously and thinking about him. The biggest mistake would be to put your concern for him first (neglecting yourself) and thus end up hurting your own future. But sounds like you are doing both: putting yourself first AND compassionately thinking of him. 

Good luck.

[Alpacalia]

9 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Wow, what a challenging, baffling situation you face. My heart goes out to you.

I figured he might say something to you given how close he is to you--though sometimes that is a bad assumption and lots of people near death stay in denial about death and end up leaving survivors in the lurch. I have had relatives not have wills, which is a pain in the rear for survivors. Actually it ends up costing survivors lots of money in legal fees!

I say the most important thing here is to be authentic and connected. Connect first--when you start talking to him--and explain later. We often fear that tears will make the person feel bad. Actually in my experience tears and emotion communicate closeness and love and the other person will tell you if tears or choking up bother them. From closeness and love, you then tell the person what you want to tell them.

I haven't been in your exact situation but I have been in similar kind of situations. And the thing I remember is that in suppressing tears, I tried to rely on words alone and I hardened myself (which is distancing) and the words then became kinda cold and clinical and didn't communicate my closeness to and love for the person.

Sounds to me like you are thinking about and processing this matter in exactly the right way, in all its complexity, taking your interests seriously and thinking about him. The biggest mistake would be to put your concern for him first (neglecting yourself) and thus end up hurting your own future. But sounds like you are doing both: putting yourself first AND compassionately thinking of him. 

Good luck.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful advice, Lotsgoingon.

Yes, you're right about the suppressing part but I almost feel like part of me needs to, if that makes sense? There's definitely things in this role that don't quite fit what I was hired to do but I am happy to do them because I really feel like it's been a very good working relationship, albeit with a few initial bumps that were ironed out with good old fashioned communication.

He's a really good boss (even though it's more freelance based) and a kind soul. I'm going to miss him for sure.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Lotsgoingon]

Yeah, in these kinds of situations it's best to just trust yourself in the moment. Just for me personally, I have found it helpful to not think choking up or sadness is inappropriate when someone is seriously ill and I'm talking business with them. Sometimes In the moment, I might not feel myself choking up--so there's nothing to suppress. 

You know yourself, and you're looking after your own interest, which is the key thing. What a fascinating work situation you've had. I hope overall it's been a good experience.

 

 

 

[Alpacalia]

6 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Yeah, in these kinds of situations it's best to just trust yourself in the moment. Just for me personally, I have found it helpful to not think choking up or sadness is inappropriate when someone is seriously ill and I'm talking business with them. Sometimes In the moment, I might not feel myself choking up--so there's nothing to suppress. 

You know yourself, and you're looking after your own interest, which is the key thing. What a fascinating work situation you've had. I hope overall it's been a good experience.

 

 

 

Yes, that's true.

It has (been a good experience). I would say more of an inspiring, meaningful experience.

He will not live much longer (he's in the final stages). It almost makes me want to delay my plans to enter the radiology program if I'm accepted this year, so I can assist him all the way through. When I was hired, he knew and understood that school for me came first and that the radiology program follows after. I just wasn't aware of just how limited his time was initially.

With a positive relationship with his daughter, who oversees everything, I may be able to achieve both within our limited timeframe.

There is a high risk of burnout associated with a role such as this. It stems from losing family members and friends (some very young due to unforeseen tragedies) along the way likewise.

I think grief counseling will help with this too.

My boss knows he doesn't have much time left. In front of him, it is difficult to show how this affects me when he is the one who knows he is dying. However, he is remarkable in the way he accepts his life circumstances (at least from what I can see). However comfortable we may be with our fate, it doesn't make it any less terrifying. I can't imagine how scary it must be for him.

What you say makes complete sense. Suppressing emotions can be detrimental and hinders that connection with the other person. 

[justwhoiam]

Hi,

I was wondering: how long have you been working for him?

If admitted students are notified in June, just wait until then. When you are 100% sure you are leaving, you let him know. I guess that would give the company 3 months to find someone else, which seems reasonable.

[justwhoiam]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:42 PM, Alpacalia said:

he has a fatal form of a particular cognitive disease.

I'm thinking it's something neurological. I've had direct experience with a brain cancer patient (my mom), and was taking her back and forth to the hospital. I saw many people go, some in less than a month. Then she passed away too. Radiology was part of the process. We had to go there every day Monday to Friday, for like a month. Brain cancer stage IV is fatal anyway, you can just extend life by a few months, maybe a year maximum.

[Alpacalia]

1 minute ago, justwhoiam said:

I'm thinking it's something neurological. I've had direct experience with a brain cancer patient (my mom), and was taking her back and forth to the hospital. I saw many people go, some in less than a month. Then she passed away too. Radiology was part of the process. We had to go there every day Monday to Friday, for like a month. Brain cancer stage IV is fatal anyway, you can just extend life by a few months, maybe a year maximum.

Gosh, that is really difficult.

Losing a mother is one of the hardest things a person can go through.

Certainly, radiology techniques such as X-rays to monitor the progression of the disease, along with fluoroscopy. I'm sure she had to undergo a variety of other diagnostic methods as well.

To answer your earlier question (how long I have worked for him), it's been about six months now.

[justwhoiam]

35 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Gosh, that is really difficult.

Losing a mother is one of the hardest things a person can go through.

Certainly, radiology techniques such as X-rays to monitor the progression of the disease, along with fluoroscopy. I'm sure she had to undergo a variety of other diagnostic methods as well.

To answer your earlier question (how long I have worked for him), it's been about six months now.

Progression was not checked that often, and it usually is through MRI. She underwent radiotherapy along with chemo.

I'd say do not add unnecessary further stress. Wait until you know for sure.

[Alpacalia]

I chose not to tell him.

He passed this morning.

I'm thankful that I had the chance to stay with him until the end of his life.

It's a bittersweet feeling, but I'm thankful for the opportunity to have known him.

 

 

[Acacia98]

So sorry for your loss, @Alpacalia.

[Alpacalia]

I'm striving to stay positive and embrace the great opportunities that have come my way, and the fond memories I have of my boss. I've been given the chance to keep working with his daughter and another firm partner. So, looking forward to that.

In light of my boss' death, I feel a little embarrassed. The past year has been challenging with the loss of my cousin, uncle, and childhood friend, followed by the loss of my boss and I'm just feeling weepy. It's been a long road.

So, thank you!