What she should do?

[Cathy7]

I thought to ask about your opinion. Actually my friend asked me about it and I expressed my thoughts, finding it somewhat concerning, but I thought to ask you as well. While I found it concerning, nowodays it is important for everyone to express themselves, so somehow I'm on the fence with it.  She has a long term boyfriend and she feels miserable that somehow he doesn't care about himself in terms of appearance and house keeping. His house is really filled with piles of things without any place and order, but also he doesn't care about his appearance. She feels like he stopped trying because in the beginning it was different. Recently he has grown hair and it requires a hairdresser, even only to be comb it or bring it into shape, but he is not willing too and told her that it is his life and how he likes looking  is not her business. From what I've seen, I also think that it looks sad, especially that she is always so neat for him and in her life, and it looks as if he doesn't care. He claims that he has been very busy with work and felt bad and didn't have time for such things but honestly, it lasts for months and months. At the same time, I understand that he wants to be himself, so is it something that she should ignore and let him be? It just looks so upsetting because I don't think its about freedom of expression but more about looking really shabby - you can express yourself fantastically and still care for yourself - but I don't know.  Please share your thoughts. Would you stay in a relationship like this? Should she allow him to be as he is both in terms of appearance and mess? Should she accept him totally as it is because it is him and she loves him the way he is? I feel that whatever advice I  might offer her, it will be not right, so I am counting on you.  Thank you! 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Cathy7
spelling mistake

[Wiseman2]

20 minutes ago, Cathy7 said:

.  She has a long term boyfriend and she feels miserable that somehow he doesn't care about himself in terms of appearance and house keeping. 

How long have they been together? Do they live together? Do they both work?

Unfortunately dating is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get situation. While she's unhappy about it, it's not likely to change. 

Relationships that are viewed as renovation projects tend to have a lot of unresolved conflicts.

Perhaps they're incompatible and she'll realize it before she gets in too deep.

[Cathy7]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

How long have they been together? Do they live together? Do they both work?

Unfortunately dating is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get situation. While she's unhappy about it, it's not likely to change. 

Relationships that are viewed as renovation projects tend to have a lot of unresolved conflicts.

Perhaps they're incompatible and she'll realize it before she gets in too deep.

Thank you for your answer! Actually, they have been together for around three years and it seemed better in the beginning and now it is getting worse and worse. He blames it on work, but she worries that it's a natural tendency. I also feel that someone can work a lot and still find a moment for such things as taking care of oneself. Yet, this is all very complicated.

[smackie9]

Would I stay, no I would not. Whatever is going on with him, his attitude stinks and that's not her problem to fix. There always comes a time when the writing is on the wall that this relationship has reached it's end. 

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, Cathy7 said:

 she worries that it's a natural tendency. 

That's true. She can't fix or change him. It sounds like he's coasting along and just doesn't care. He did not suddenly have a radical change. It's just a progression of how he is when he's complacent.

However she needs to come to her own conclusions about the viability of the relationship. It's a fool's errand to nag him into changing.

[Cathy7]

6 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Would I stay, no I would not. Whatever is going on with him, his attitude stinks and that's not her problem to fix. There always comes a time when the writing is on the wall that this relationship has reached it's end. 

Thank you for your answer! Deep inside I also thought that I wouldn't stay. I have this battle in my head that one is allowed to freely express themselves and he is free to look the way he does but then, again, when I see them together, it is sad. I think that one thing is looking just as one wants to be, and the other is looking shabby. People who work a lot also find a moment to care for themsleves, don't they - that's my reasoning. Thank you so much for your help!

[Cathy7]

9 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's true. She can't fix or change him. It sounds like he's coasting along and just doesn't care. He did not suddenly have a radical change. It's just a progression of how he is when he's complacent.

However she needs to come to her own conclusions about the viability of the relationship. It's a fool's errand to nag him into changing.

Thank you. It looks like this, like he tried harder in the beginning. Is it wrong that she is not accepting of his shabby appearance and pointed it out as her concern or is it disrespectful of her to tell him how he should look like? I think that I would have been concerned too and wanted a conversation, honestly.

[basil67]

29 minutes ago, Cathy7 said:

 I have this battle in my head that one is allowed to freely express themselves and he is free to look the way he does

Our actions all have consequences.  Yes, the person with face tattoos is free to express themselves, but will they get any kind of decent job?  The person who's all puffed up with cosmetic fillers is free to express themselves, but will anyone take them seriously?  The person who turns up for a job interview wearing shorts and sandals is free to express themselves, but will they get a second interview?  

This guy may be considered a good friend to many, but if your friend doesn't want to date him because he's a slob, that's her prerogative.  This should be a no-brainer

Edit: and not, it's not disrespectful of her to tell him that she wants him to look decent.  Because if she leaves, he then can't say that she didn't tell him there were problems.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by basil67

[Cathy7]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Our actions all have consequences.  Yes, the person with face tattoos is free to express themselves, but will they get any kind of decent job?  The person who's all puffed up with cosmetic fillers is free to express themselves, but will anyone take them seriously?  The person who turns up for a job interview wearing shorts and sandals is free to express themselves, but will they get a second interview?  

This guy may be considered a good friend to many, but if your friend doesn't want to date him because he's a slob, that's her prerogative.  This should be a no-brainer

Edit: and not, it's not disrespectful of her to tell him that she wants him to look decent.  Because if she leaves, he then can't say that she didn't tell him there were problems.

 

Thank you so much! I feel absolutely the same way deep inside. That's a good argument. Thank you so much.

[Lotsgoingon]

The goal is for your friend to find someone who is being themselves in a way she likes!

She shouldn't give him a pass. He sounds depressed to me, and depression is really hard on partners. I'd tell your gf to exit because people with depression (runs all through my family) can be really tough to help, especially if they don't acknowledge the depression and don't get help. When I was depressed I was myself whatever the heck that means. But I was a terrible partner. And actually looking back, I felt a lot more myself when I came out of my depression. 

So gf needs to get her thinking clear here. She runs into an alcoholic or a drug dealer who is "being himself"--she can't pass over him? Can't leave him? Lots of violent criminals would say they are "being themselves." So what? 

The goal is to be yourself (or a good version of ourselves) and to find someone who is themselves AND we like who they are. Imagine bf were just a friend--she would put more and more distance between her and him, right? BTW: I'm betting this guy doesn't have many friends. He's isolated and fatigued. Dating someone with no friends is also not good. 

How is she maintaining any attraction to this guy.? She needs to have gotten out yesterday. This is not even debatable. Dating is not charity work or social work. 

[Ami1uwant]

3 hours ago, Cathy7 said:

Thank you for your answer! Actually, they have been together for around three years and it seemed better in the beginning and now it is getting worse and worse. He blames it on work, but she worries that it's a natural tendency. I also feel that someone can work a lot and still find a moment for such things as taking care of oneself. Yet, this is all very complicated.

It’s likely a mix of both.

 

stress with work coukd be a big factor here. There probably is some relationship issues.

 

im not exactly sure what’s going on with what he’s wearing.  Is she trying to have him dress in a way that just isn’t his style?

 

classic relationship failure is thinking you can change the person.

[basil67]

@Cathy7 I think we've gotten sidetracked by the discussion of acceptance of other person's presentation and missed what is arguably the bigger issue:  The state of his house!   No doing his housework and leaving loads of boxes and random stuff in their house (hoarding?) should be an automatic dealbreaker.   If she doesn't leave, she will have a lifetime of being his maid making the house habitable. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by basil67

[MsJayne]

How's his mood in general? Sometimes depression can make people stop caring about their appearance and/or their living environment. Does he bathe regularly, brush his teeth, wash his shabby clothes?  Appearances don't really tell you much about people, but, if your friend feels embarrassed being seen with her BF, that's a reason to end a relationship, they have strongly differing values. 

[Gaeta]

7 hours ago, Cathy7 said:

that it is his life and how he likes looking  is not her business.

I would interpret that as he wants to be single.

The tone and choice of words indicate he doesn't care much about her feelings. Once you stop caring, when there is no more *we* and it's all about *my life* there is no more relationship. 

[justwhoiam]

I'm old-fashioned and although now I'm mature, I was still old-fashioned when I was 20. Women make the world go round. Men are better human beings because there are women around, generally speaking. Men tend to try and impress women any way they can, when they care about them. So this guy stopped caring, for some reason. Maybe he feels secure in the relationship, as it's been going on for over 3 years. But one thing he'll learn is that you should never think it's a set and done deal, not even when you're married. It remains a work in progress, where both need to make efforts.

Yes, he has a right to his own hair, appearance, etc. But any of that should look neat anyway, as there's a factor called attraction, so if you keep skipping hygiene basics, attraction will soon go down the toilet. Most women will demand hygiene and will pass on hoarders and sloppy guys. Her act of love was telling him. He's not complying. Time to part ways.

[JTSW]

There is a deeper issue here than just longer hair etc.

Something is on his mind and I'm guessing it's the fact that he no longer wants to be in this relationship.

Its the shitty way he spoke to her that solidified my theory.

He doesn't care about her concerns and doesn't care if it puts her off him. 

If she is miserable like you say, and he doesn't care, then she should 100% leave.

The longer she stays, the worse it will be.

[Cathy7]

23 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

The goal is for your friend to find someone who is being themselves in a way she likes!

She shouldn't give him a pass. He sounds depressed to me, and depression is really hard on partners. I'd tell your gf to exit because people with depression (runs all through my family) can be really tough to help, especially if they don't acknowledge the depression and don't get help. When I was depressed I was myself whatever the heck that means. But I was a terrible partner. And actually looking back, I felt a lot more myself when I came out of my depression. 

So gf needs to get her thinking clear here. She runs into an alcoholic or a drug dealer who is "being himself"--she can't pass over him? Can't leave him? Lots of violent criminals would say they are "being themselves." So what? 

The goal is to be yourself (or a good version of ourselves) and to find someone who is themselves AND we like who they are. Imagine bf were just a friend--she would put more and more distance between her and him, right? BTW: I'm betting this guy doesn't have many friends. He's isolated and fatigued. Dating someone with no friends is also not good. 

How is she maintaining any attraction to this guy.? She needs to have gotten out yesterday. This is not even debatable. Dating is not charity work or social work. 

Thank you! I think that your argument is really good. Of course, we would love others to be themelves, but also there are some notions of propriety. It is sad for me that she is so neat and he is, on the contrary, not really. It is as if he lives in his own world and does not want to change it in any way and it is ok, but perhaps she needs to get out.

[Cathy7]

21 hours ago, basil67 said:

@Cathy7 I think we've gotten sidetracked by the discussion of acceptance of other person's presentation and missed what is arguably the bigger issue:  The state of his house!   No doing his housework and leaving loads of boxes and random stuff in their house (hoarding?) should be an automatic dealbreaker.   If she doesn't leave, she will have a lifetime of being his maid making the house habitable. 

I think you pointed out a very important ingredient! Isn't it that the state of his house reflects the way in  which he takes care/ doesn't take care of himself too!

[Cathy7]

13 hours ago, justwhoiam said:

I'm old-fashioned and although now I'm mature, I was still old-fashioned when I was 20. Women make the world go round. Men are better human beings because there are women around, generally speaking. Men tend to try and impress women any way they can, when they care about them. So this guy stopped caring, for some reason. Maybe he feels secure in the relationship, as it's been going on for over 3 years. But one thing he'll learn is that you should never think it's a set and done deal, not even when you're married. It remains a work in progress, where both need to make efforts.

Yes, he has a right to his own hair, appearance, etc. But any of that should look neat anyway, as there's a factor called attraction, so if you keep skipping hygiene basics, attraction will soon go down the toilet. Most women will demand hygiene and will pass on hoarders and sloppy guys. Her act of love was telling him. He's not complying. Time to part ways.

Thank you so much! I totally agree with everything you shared. I also feel like he stopped caring. I think that he told me friend that it is her who doesn't care and who is disrespectful because she doesn't like him as he is. But I remember too that he was trying more in the beginning. Perhaps it is something like a gaslighting method he is using now. I also feel that people should be trying to at least look neat. I would always like to look attractive to my partner. It seems like he grew very comfortable.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, Cathy7 said:

I think you pointed out a very important ingredient! Isn't it that the state of his house reflects the way in  which he takes care/ doesn't take care of himself too!

The point is that he's simply a lazy slob.  If that's not enough to leave a relationship, I don't know what is.   

Where are your friend's boundaries?

[Cathy7]

Just now, basil67 said:

The point is that he's simply a lazy slob.  If that's not enough to leave a relationship, I don't know what is.   

Where are your friend's boundaries?

I think that she hesitates because of all the time they spent together and the memories and hopes... I can understand that because I am the same, but when I picture her life, I feel so sad for her. Also, telling her that if she doesn't like him the way he is that means that she is disrespectful (that's what he told her) - I think that this is pure gaslighting. 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Cathy7 said:

I think that she hesitates because of all the time they spent together and the memories and hopes... I can understand that because I am the same, but when I picture her life, I feel so sad for her. Also, telling her that if she doesn't like him the way he is that means that she is disrespectful (that's what he told her) - I think that this is pure gaslighting. 

I don't agree that it's gaslighting on his part. 

If we choose to be with someone, a large part of the equation is about accepting them for who they are.  Staying in a relationship while asking them to change IS disrespectful.    I'm not for a moment suggesting that she should stay with him, but if she does, she needs to accept that this is who he is.   And if she can't accept it, she should leave.

[Cathy7]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I don't agree that it's gaslighting on his part. 

If we choose to be with someone, a large part of the equation is about accepting them for who they are.  Staying in a relationship while asking them to change IS disrespectful.    I'm not for a moment suggesting that she should stay with him, but if she does, she needs to accept that this is who he is.   And if she can't accept it, she should leave.

Thank you! Indeed, it's true! But is it also disrespectful to ask him if he would take care of his appearance? 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

I don't agree that it's gaslighting on his part. 

If we choose to be with someone, a large part of the equation is about accepting them for who they are.  Staying in a relationship while asking them to change IS disrespectful.    I'm not for a moment suggesting that she should stay with him, but if she does, she needs to accept that this is who he is.   And if she can't accept it, she should leave.

To clarify, we should highlight issues with our partners.  But if he is happy with who he is and she chooses to stay, that's when raising the issue more times becomes disrespectful.  

[basil67]

Just now, Cathy7 said:

Thank you! Indeed, it's true! But is it also disrespectful to ask him if he would take care of his appearance? 

Yes, it is disrespectful.  See my clarification above