Third time the charm?

[Will am I]

One thing I learned: affairs start years before they start.

There is a chain of feelings and events leading up to the affair.

In my case I have been able to reconstruct that my heart was out of the marriage at least 4 years before I met xOW. 

 

Recovering from an affair should not just focus on the period of the affair itself and the misery it caused. It should also address the (long) period leading upto the affair.

The affair is something you can and should blame on the stray spouse. That’s only fair.

The period before should preferably be looked at neutrally. Is there a mismatch of characters, a mismatch of expectations, emotional and psychological factors putting a person at risk? 

Working things out after an affair should include these factors too, without transplanting the blame of the affair to these pre-affair things.

And sometimes: the conclusion is that marriage is no longer viable, or never was. Then the effort of the relationship counseling should shift to preparing for a civic divorce and coperenting arrangement.

 

 

[pepperbird2]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Thank you. I do have some income but my husband is the main provider. I know if we divorce, he would financially take care of both me and our children. Btwn my earnings, alimony and child support I would be ok. 
 

My husband felt unconnected in our marriage and instead of trying to work on it, he looked elsewhere. He also has some unresolved trauma from his early life and is an avoidant person in general. He is very good at compartmentalization. His affair was a result of his personal issues more than our marital issue according to what his therapist told him. 

I hate to say it, but those are just excuses. 
I’ve been in a similar boat to you, but it was a very short term affair. Mental health care was a must for my spouse ( combat related ptsd) and until he faced that, we were stuck.

[pepperbird2]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:37 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Great advice. I am still here because for the first time in his life he is getting help and willing to change. If he is a changed man and I divorce him, then I am the one losing out. If he doesn’t change, I leave him and I come out knowing I gave it everything. 
 

That future question is tough. I just don’t know. I thought he was my forever and the love of my life. I still want that in so many ways. I feel like my entire heart is in his hands which is terrifying. If he changes, then the future looks wonderful. If he doesn’t, then I just don’t know. I have never thought about a future without out him now that I think about it. 

Do you really love “him”? Him, the guy who cheated on you, not the guy you think he is. 

[pepperbird2]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:35 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Cheating is very accepted in his culture. It is not in mine. His belief system regarding cheating needs to change. We have discussed this in MC. I will not turn the other cheek. 

Our counsellor explained to us that we needed to divest ourselves of the idea that my spouse cheated because our marriage was bad. That’s a pretty popular line that you’ll see used by some WS who don’t want to accept full responsibility.

You and your husband , like me and mine, are in the same marriage, good or bad. It’s sad to say, but in both our cases , our spouses made the CHOICE to cheat. They didn’t just fall into bed with them- that was the end result of a series of choices made over time. At any time, your husband could have said “ stop”, but instead he chose to go ahead. 
 

See here’s the thing people who have affairs don’t seem to like to admit. They are dishonest. They lie. Every day your husband spoke to you, sat with you, planned with you, was intimate with you, it was a lie. The worst part for you is he did it for so long, and even his supposedly guilty conscience wasn’t enough to stop him. That  he could do so for years it really troubling. 
 

A split self affair? Meh, that’s just a nice way of saying he’s a skilled liar. He lies to you, his kids, his OW and also himself. In your shoes, I could never trust him. Thst ability to compartmentalize in his marriage is quite disturbing.  

Edited February 19, 2023 by pepperbird2

[pepperbird2]

10 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I think she loves the man she thought she married. Personally, I think she is really struggling to reconcile that man with the man who she now knows has done her egregious harm. The cognitive dissonance here is hard to reconcile.

Thus, the mental gymnastics - their relationship hadn’t really progressed beyond infatuation, he didn’t chose her when he had his opportunity, etc…

She has been quite clear - if they can get rid of the other woman, and if he can get back to being the man that she thought she married, they can hopefully begin to move forward and create a happy future together… they can, as her friends were able to do, successfully stay married.

But as you said in your last post, the man that you thought you married does not exist anymore. And you are forever changed yourself. How to grow and make peace with everything that you now know and everything that has changed - that is the challenge. 

Op, this is so true.

I stayed with my spouse because when the dust settled, it was right for us. He put in the work to get his mind sorted. That took a long time. 

You don’t have to decide anything right away. Give yourself time. Take a mini vacation if you can on your own. Sometimes, a few days to oneself without all the noise can bring some clarity. 

[pepperbird2]

7 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

We are working on me feeling safe again in relationship. Being physically intimate brings up a lot of triggers for me of picturing him with the OW. For me to feel safe, it has to be on my terms vs doing it for him. I don’t have the generosity right now to do anything for him but am working to improve that as he regains my trust and respect. Having to go get STD testing as a married woman following your husband’s affair is so traumatic. When he kisses me I imagine him kissing her. Doing other things to her. Some days when we are very connected I can forget about that but on days that I can’t, trying to have sex would make it worse. 

I’ve been there, and it was awful. I was lucky my doctor was so great. He did the testing for me and also some very comforting words. 

[pepperbird2]

3 hours ago, BPBP said:

I've been both OW and BW in my lifetime but never really had this kind of vindictiveness.  You want to stay so stay but know that he did NOT pick you, he was caught!  In his 6 years of relationship to OW I am certain he uttered hundreds of loving words to her for her to stay.  Know that your husband is no prize, know that wishing another woman pain will not re-build a happy home.  I am sure OW is completely devastated as well, especially if her husband is divorcing her.   What I see in long term is other woman winning, with a brand new relationship and you stuck in this vindictiveness and using your children to keep a man attached to you.  

Wow. 
op, this could be true, but all it illustrates is that neither a Bs or Ow/ Om gets a prize package. 

[pepperbird2]

3 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Or is it the lifestyle you're trying to maintain?  Some women try to keep it together so they don't have to go back to work or are you presently working?

 

49 minutes ago, Will am I said:

One thing I learned: affairs start years before they start.

There is a chain of feelings and events leading up to the affair.

In my case I have been able to reconstruct that my heart was out of the marriage at least 4 years before I met xOW. 

 

Recovering from an affair should not just focus on the period of the affair itself and the misery it caused. It should also address the (long) period leading upto the affair.

The affair is something you can and should blame on the stray spouse. That’s only fair.

The period before should preferably be looked at neutrally. Is there a mismatch of characters, a mismatch of expectations, emotional and psychological factors putting a person at risk? 

Working things out after an affair should include these factors too, without transplanting the blame of the affair to these pre-affair things.

And sometimes: the conclusion is that marriage is no longer viable, or never was. Then the effort of the relationship counseling should shift to preparing for a civic divorce and coperenting arrangement.

 

 

Op,

The very first thing our counsellor explained to us is that the first step was for my husband to admit it was 100 percent on him. Thst doesn’t mean he’s evil incarnate  or even a bad guy-he’d made bad decisions. Yes, he was mentally ill, but he knew right from wrong. He was running, and taking me and our kids along with him.
 

something else she said I will never forget, and I’d advise you to keep it in mind too. Your husband didn’t cheat because of you. That would be like saying it’s the storekeeper’s fault when a kid shoplifts. He cheated because he wanted to. It felt good to him at the time and that is what mattered. That’s harsh, I know,but it’s true. He could have walked away from the affair, he could have been honest, but he chose otherwise. Alternatively, he could have chosen his OW or to walk away from his marriage. Again, he chose otherwise.
 

I don’t know why your spouse had these affairs, but the one thing I do know is that if there was any sense of guilt it wasn’t enough to stop him. What makes you think he won’t do do again? 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Or is it the lifestyle you're trying to maintain?  Some women try to keep it together so they don't have to go back to work or are you presently working?

We both work. I just make much less. I would be fine financially either way. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Hopefullyjaded9
Add

[BaileyB]

38 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

sometimes I think I don’t know him or never really knew him, 

I think that is exactly what I would think if I discovered that my partner was in another relationship for six years of your marriage. 
 

38 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

wouldn’t I know him the best now? Because I have seen the dark and ugly side. Isn’t part of really loving someone accepting that they flawed.

This, I think, is mental gymnastics. There is flawed and then there is FLAWED. 

Where is your line in the sand OP? What would you call a flaw that you can accept - like an annoying habit that you learn to live with - and what would you say is a sign that he lacks integrity and character? What kind of flaw would be a dealbreaker? 

When I say mental gymnastics, I mean - where is your line in the sand and have you moved it to help yourself to be ok when you decide to stay in your marriage? An example, does a person who discovers that her husband has committed an actual crime - like he has embezzled thousands of dollars from his employer or committed a sexual assault as a young man - say - “Well, don’t I know him best? I know the good, the bad, and the ugly and I still accept him despite his flaws. After all, that’s what marriage is all about - accepting your partner despite their flaws.” Or, so you say - “You know the difference between right and wrong and you chose to break the law.  You lack integrity, you put me and your family at risk and I choose not to stay in a relationship with a man who I can not respect or trust.” 

Edited February 20, 2023 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

33 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I did make the mistake of reading some BS posts and omg does anyone ever come out of reconciliation ok? Seems like everyone is just pushing through but not really happy.

I don’t think it’s a mistake. You came here for validation of the idea that a happy reconciliation is eventually possible. If you aren’t getting that validation, that doesn’t mean you need to stop reading. If you decide you want to be happy, put on your blinders and accept him for who he is. If you can’t do that, then maybe you are learning something here.

Your friends had good reconciliation outcomes from infidelity, no? Listening to them might have been enough. But I think you came here because you sensed your betrayal was worse than what they experienced. I think your brain and your heart are telling you different stories. It might take some time to sort out what you really want.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I think that is exactly what I would think if I discovered that my partner was in another relationship for six years of your marriage. 
 

This, I think, is mental gymnastics. There is flawed and then there is FLAWED. 

Where is your line in the sand OP? What would you call a flaw that you can accept - like an annoying habit that you learn to live with - and what would you say is a sign that he lacks integrity and character? What kind of flaw would be a dealbreaker? 

When I say mental gymnastics, I mean - where is your line in the sand and have you moved it to help yourself to be ok when you decide to stay in your marriage? An example, does a person who discovers that her husband has committed an actual crime - like he has embezzled thousands of dollars from his employer or committed a sexual assault as a young man - say - “Well, don’t I know him best? I know the good, the bad, and the ugly and I still accept him despite his flaws. After all, that’s what marriage is all about - accepting your partner despite their flaws.” Or, so you say - “You know the difference between right and wrong and you chose to break the law.  You lack integrity, you put me and your family at risk and I choose not to stay in a relationship with a man who I can not respect or trust.” 

I thought I had a line in the sand after DDay1. Then DDay2 happened and I did push the line back. I just didn’t have it in me to follow through like I thought I could. I am holding myself to it this time that if he does not showing true remorse and work then it is over. If he has any contact with with OW then it is over. I know most people will say that he already knows I won’t do this after not following through with divorce this last time but if it happens again after us doing reconciliation the right way this time he will never change and I need to protect myself and my kids. 

[Alpacalia]

21 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I thought I had a line in the sand after DDay1. Then DDay2 happened and I did push the line back. I just didn’t have it in me to follow through like I thought I could. I am holding myself to it this time that if he does not showing true remorse and work then it is over. If he has any contact with with OW then it is over. I know most people will say that he already knows I won’t do this after not following through with divorce this last time but if it happens again after us doing reconciliation the right way this time he will never change and I need to protect myself and my kids. 

Perhaps you are codependent? From the outside, it doesn't make sense why you would be resistant to leaving someone who lies, cheats, and does not respect you.

Since he has done so much already and you haven't left him, the message is that he can cheat on you without consequence. You’re giving him the green light.

It is only a guess, but maybe you believe that if you leave the person who makes you unhappy, you will never find someone better and will remain alone forever.

Others feel guilty and blame themselves for giving up on the relationship.

Don’t focus on your husband and his indiscreet behaviors. His lying and cheating are secondary issues in relation to you, believe it or not. Don't let his behavior affect you. Cheating is cheap. Everywhere in the world, it happens to many people. It's a sad reality of weak human nature. Your husband's cheating behavior is not about you. First, you have no control over his cheating behavior. It is strictly his personal issue. It is not because you are not good enough or the other woman is better. Whether you are an ideal woman or not, there will still be men who cheat on you, right?

Disentangle his lying and cheating behaviors from your personal worth and don't let it affect your self-confidence. Most people cheat because they can't understand and examine their deep psyches. They lack self-discipline when lured by temptations. Having said that. Some people deserve a second chance. Mistakes are made, regret is felt, and amends are made. Some people don’t deserve a second chance. They have no self awareness. They lie, treat you like a fool, and take advantage of your kindness.

Notice the differences between the two.

Personally, I would not want to be with someone who has developed a life long habit of cheating. Lifelong habits take many years to undo and heal.

The issue is that you are allowing your emotions to control your life. Try putting your rational mind in the driver’s seat. Your emotional mind is never going to let you leave. Try to have some pride and some respect for yourself. 

[Weezy1973]

I actually understand why you want it to work. Really you want the family unit to stay intact. If he’s a good father - and yes someone can be a good father and be a cheater at the same time - you want to keep things the same. I just think the two of you ultimately are incompatible, so even if this does work for awhile, it likely will end once the kids are either out of the house or at least completely independent. 

[Alpacalia]

I actually think (and this is just a personal opinion) that your children deserve a better example. The example you're setting now is "if someone cheats, it's okay, there aren't any real consequences."

5 years ago, you gave him another shot, and he blew it. Then you gave him a SECOND chance, and he did it again. Where do you draw the line?

Yes, your children would be broken hearted if you divorced. But would you rather they had a shot at living in a happy home, and not one where mom and dad are at odds? And what message are you sending them by staying? The day came that dad's indescretions came out, and they see that you forgave him time and time again, what does that teach them about trust and what to expect from their spouse? What is your husband, in turn, teaching them about being a good husband?

Your kids already know that there is a break in your relationship. I don't see how this doesn't fester and grow into resentment that will spill over into your daily lives. And the kids will be subjected to something they didn't ask for. The last thing I would ever want is to tell my child that I stayed with his father for them, and then have them feel like it's their fault that I was miserable.

Good luck to you. Again, I know it's easier said than done and it's a personal choice. Sorry to hear you have to deal with this.

[Will am I]

8 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

does anyone ever come out of reconciliation ok?

I can tell you the answer in five or ten years.

Being as candid and honest as I can be. I can give a number of pointers but not a full picture.

I know my wife must be deeply hurt. She chooses to process these emotions privately, in IC or with her girls. Not a good sign TBH.

She’s more open and motivated sexually than she was before. One might call that “hysterical bonding” but it didn’t wear off in a couple of weeks or months. Good sign.

I feel “calmer” with the idea that this marriage is going to be a “life sentence”. Calmer in the sense of less restless. Good sign.

My wife is in a new job and working more hours now. She generally seems happier. I’m tempted to call this a good sign (like “happy wife, happy life”) but I realize that more financial independence might also be her stepping stone on her way out. 

There are a bunch of signs, generally it’s a mixed picture like the few that I wrote. I’m a numbers guy. I think we have a 75% chance of making it through. 

Perhaps more importantly: even if we don’t make it as a married couple, we will probably be able to wrap things up in a peaceful manner and be good coparents. 

There’s also value in reconciliation if the end result is not a continuation of the marriage. 

[JTSW]

The bottom line here is, the marriage will never be the same.

The trust has been lost.

You will always be in a state of worry and paranoia.

Any time he has to go to work, any time he is not with you, you will drive yourself crazy wondering if he is with her or talking to her.

Edited February 20, 2023 by JTSW

[Will am I]

If that is the outcome, then it's better to go your separate ways. No wife should be hyperventilating into a plastic bag just because their husband is away for business.

If despite solid efforts the anxiety doesn't come down, then breaking up is the only remaining option.

Still I would suggest therapy and reconciliation, but then with the goal of releasing anger and parting in a peaceful manner. Marriage is not something that comes easy. From what I see around me, neither is divorce.

 

I'm still optimistic that it doesn't always have to be like that (even if realistically speaking, often it will).

 

I believe that affairs grow in the shadows of failing communication. I felt rejected, misunderstood, lonely in certain areas. I didn't feel I was getting that message through, it felt as if it bounced into an invisible wall. In counseling we learned how that wall was formed by my wife's coping mechanisms around childhood trauma. Before that it just seemed as if she chose to ignore me, which to me felt like she was armslengthing me. It was after I had bounced in the wall too many times that I stopped talking. It was after I stopped talking that I sort of gave up hope. It was after I gave up hope that my heart gradually went astray. And it was a matter of time for someone to pick my heart of from the street. 

We make a conscious effort to communicate more openly now. From both sides. And I think it's making a big difference in our marriage.

Now I don't want to sound like I have all the answers, because I don't. I don't even know if we will be married in 5 or 10 years. I can't read my wife's mind. But she doesn't seem too anxious. Time will tell, but I am hopeful.

 

[pepperbird2]

Op,

pit is possible to reconcile and be really happy together. I know I may not sound that way, but it’s true. 
 

for us, the issues really were  external, which actually made the harder to address. It took a lot of work, but over a decade later, we are still together. 
 

I will never, ever trust him 100 percent again, and I am okay with that. 99 percent is pretty darn close. We have our ups and downs just as as any pair would after nearly 26 years of marriage.  For the most part, we’re really happy together. Life is an adventure, and he’s the one I want to experience it with.

[Alpacalia]

I was in a committed relationship and we were a few months away from our wedding, but unfortunately, I discovered that my ex was unfaithful. Although I may have had the potential for a comfortable life with my ex, I stand by my decision to leave and I have no regrets about it. This happened several years ago, and even though my ex has made attempts to reconnect with me over the years, I have chosen not to pursue that path.

Ultimately, making decisions that feel authentic to you and align with your values will help minimize the likelihood of regret. I know I sound like a broken record at this point but do take the time to reflect on what matters most to you and consider all of your options before making a decision. 

[Will am I]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

over a decade later, we are still together.

These words give me so much ancouragement, thank you.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Op,

pit is possible to reconcile and be really happy together. I know I may not sound that way, but it’s true. 
 

for us, the issues really were  external, which actually made the harder to address. It took a lot of work, but over a decade later, we are still together. 
 

I will never, ever trust him 100 percent again, and I am okay with that. 99 percent is pretty darn close. We have our ups and downs just as as any pair would after nearly 26 years of marriage.  For the most part, we’re really happy together. Life is an adventure, and he’s the one I want to experience it with.

Glad to hear you are happy and doing well with reconciliation. I guess only time will tell for him and I. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

20 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Wow. 
op, this could be true, but all it illustrates is that neither a Bs or Ow/ Om gets a prize package. 

Definitely no prize 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

20 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Our counsellor explained to us that we needed to divest ourselves of the idea that my spouse cheated because our marriage was bad. That’s a pretty popular line that you’ll see used by some WS who don’t want to accept full responsibility.

You and your husband , like me and mine, are in the same marriage, good or bad. It’s sad to say, but in both our cases , our spouses made the CHOICE to cheat. They didn’t just fall into bed with them- that was the end result of a series of choices made over time. At any time, your husband could have said “ stop”, but instead he chose to go ahead. 
 

See here’s the thing people who have affairs don’t seem to like to admit. They are dishonest. They lie. Every day your husband spoke to you, sat with you, planned with you, was intimate with you, it was a lie. The worst part for you is he did it for so long, and even his supposedly guilty conscience wasn’t enough to stop him. That  he could do so for years it really troubling. 
 

A split self affair? Meh, that’s just a nice way of saying he’s a skilled liar. He lies to you, his kids, his OW and also himself. In your shoes, I could never trust him. Thst ability to compartmentalize in his marriage is quite disturbing.  

I do believe he is a skilled liar. So believing anything now is not feasible yet. That will take a long time. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

16 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Perhaps you are codependent? From the outside, it doesn't make sense why you would be resistant to leaving someone who lies, cheats, and does not respect you.

Since he has done so much already and you haven't left him, the message is that he can cheat on you without consequence. You’re giving him the green light.

It is only a guess, but maybe you believe that if you leave the person who makes you unhappy, you will never find someone better and will remain alone forever.

Others feel guilty and blame themselves for giving up on the relationship.

Don’t focus on your husband and his indiscreet behaviors. His lying and cheating are secondary issues in relation to you, believe it or not. Don't let his behavior affect you. Cheating is cheap. Everywhere in the world, it happens to many people. It's a sad reality of weak human nature. Your husband's cheating behavior is not about you. First, you have no control over his cheating behavior. It is strictly his personal issue. It is not because you are not good enough or the other woman is better. Whether you are an ideal woman or not, there will still be men who cheat on you, right?

Disentangle his lying and cheating behaviors from your personal worth and don't let it affect your self-confidence. Most people cheat because they can't understand and examine their deep psyches. They lack self-discipline when lured by temptations. Having said that. Some people deserve a second chance. Mistakes are made, regret is felt, and amends are made. Some people don’t deserve a second chance. They have no self awareness. They lie, treat you like a fool, and take advantage of your kindness.

Notice the differences between the two.

Personally, I would not want to be with someone who has developed a life long habit of cheating. Lifelong habits take many years to undo and heal.

The issue is that you are allowing your emotions to control your life. Try putting your rational mind in the driver’s seat. Your emotional mind is never going to let you leave. Try to have some pride and some respect for yourself. 

The first time I was viewed as a fool and taken advantage of. This time my blinders are off. He is gaining self awareness and learning a lot about himself in IC.