Third time the charm?

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

The first time I was viewed as a fool and taken advantage of. This time my blinders are off. He is gaining self awareness and learning a lot about himself in IC.  

Can you explain the difference between the first time and this one?  The first time he was caught, like now, and he told you he was done and you were onboard with working on it - like now.  Is that correct?:

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Can you explain the difference between the first time and this one?  The first time he was caught, like now, and he told you he was done and you were onboard with working on it - like now.  Is that correct?:

The first time we went to a counselor a handful of times. It did not seemed to make things worse not better. Neither one of us really wanted continue. We also never sought out IC. Looking back this was a huge mistake. We got back into the routine of life and never really addressed the issues. This time we are doing our personal work and sticking with MC. We are not just trying to move on like nothing happened. That is one of the only reasons I am giving this a chance. We are tackling it in a totally different way this time which could allow for real reconciliation vs a fake one. 

[Will am I]

One condition for things to work out is that you and your husband both wholeheartedly commit to a new marriage with the same spouse.

A continuation of the old marriage, you know where that leads.

[Wiseman2]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:18 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

, I discovered my husband had a multi-year affair with a MW. The OW’s husband found out and then told me. he was just caught again with the same AP.

Is the other woman still married?  It seems the only motivation to end things was being discovered. It sounds like he's doing a lot in order not to alienate the children.  

[Hopefullyjaded9]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is the other woman still married?  It seems the only motivation to end things was being discovered. It sounds like he's doing a lot in order not to alienate the children.  

She is married. I am not sure if they are divorcing. Yes, the relationship ended after being discovered but according to my husband they were not getting along that well anymore and he was trying to end it. Like everything, that can all be lies. Keeping his relationship with our daughters is a huge motivation for him right now but I think that is a positive thing. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 hours ago, Will am I said:

One condition for things to work out is that you and your husband both wholeheartedly commit to a new marriage with the same spouse.

A continuation of the old marriage, you know where that leads.

Can you explain some practical things you can do to create a “new marriage.” Many books and articles I have read as well as our MC have said the same. I am having a hard time grasping how to create something new with us dragging in so many years of memories, baggage, and now infidelity. We are working on changing out communication and turning in vs out. We are working on creating new memories together. Any insight on what helps create a new marriage? 

[Will am I]

I think it starts with expressing the desire to continue together. And (maybe for the first time) opening up and sharing everything you want different than it is. 
From there: listening tou your spouse, of course both ways. And: thinking long and hard if you really want to accommodate your partner’s desires.

If not, your conversation changes because there is an incompatibility that would at this point probably end the relationship.

If you both commit to the choice of eachother as a life partner going forward (and preferably the choice is not driven by fear of divorce), then it’s time to start being the spouse that your partner wants to be. And talking continuously about what goes well and what doesn’t. Habits are built by practice.

 

Because the level and amount of communication go up sharply, I recommend keeping a couples counselor around for a while.

 

Of course the term “new marriage” is super inflated. It’s an updated version of the existing marriage. And it’s a lot of hard work.

 

About expectations: don’t expect magic. But do expect something.

I would say: my wife is the sweetest and dearest and best version of my wife that I know. Hopefully she would say the same about me.

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

She is married. I am not sure if they are divorcing. Yes, the relationship ended after being discovered but according to my husband they were not getting along that well anymore and he was trying to end it. Like everything, that can all be lies. Keeping his relationship with our daughters is a huge motivation for him right now but I think that is a positive thing. 

I doubt your husband is lying about her husband trying to end the marriage.  To be able to tell you OW and her husband are staying together and going to work on their marriage would take some of the pressure off of him.  It would mean that she too would have her husband policing her to make sure she's not trying to see your husband.

[poppyfields]

OP, I have read this entire thread and haven't seen this question asked or answered.

Are you sexually attracted to your husband?  If not, were you ever?  I don't mean finding him physically attractive, that's different.

I mean raw, unadulterated animal attraction.

I don't think this has much to do with mismatched libidos or sexual incompatibility, that's a cope.

When there is high mutual sexual attraction and sexual passion, the sex works beautifully, instinctively, naturally, organically. 

I'm sensing you're not (sexually attracted).  My take from reading this thread is you can take or leave having sex with your husband, it's not a priority and never was. 

Trust me, HE can feel that from you.  Your lack of sexual attraction, your lack sexual passion for him. 

Which is what drove him into the arms of another woman, for six years.  He was getting this basic need from her and not from his own wife. I find that sad, sorry. 

That's my read on this anyway. 

I don't mean to judge but the way write, you sound like a victim which I don't believe you are.

There are no "victims" just two people whose marriage broke down and couldn't find healthy ways to put back together. 

Your husband broke vows, yes, but he had needs that were not being met, he's human.

I understand this as my dad experienced same with mom who was never sexually attracted to him, sex was low on her priority list and she married him and stayed for family, social status and my dad was a great father and provider. 

Not a good reason to marry OR stay imo and my dad eventually left to marry the woman who was sexually attracted to him, who loved him the way a man needs to be loved and desired. 

She became the love of his life until she passed and as his daughter I was happy he got to experience that before HE passed. 

You wrote you need him to make you feel "safe," ugh.  What about what HE needs from you?

Surely a woman who doesn't envision love and sexual desire as something derived from familiarity and overcoming struggles together?

It takes two to make a good marriage and two to break it.

My advice is stop playing the victim and starting owning your role in the breakdown and why he chose to look elsewhere.

And if you are no longer sexually attracted, if you ever were, end the marriage.  

You're not doing your kids any favors by staying and having them witness that type of cold environment from their parents. 

It will do them more harm than good, trust me on that. 

JMO, all the best. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by poppyfields

[Hopefullyjaded9]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

I doubt your husband is lying about her husband trying to end the marriage.  To be able to tell you OW and her husband are staying together and going to work on their marriage would take some of the pressure off of him.  It would mean that she too would have her husband policing her to make sure she's not trying to see your husband.

I am sorry that was confusing. My husband said the affair with the OW wasn’t good anymore and my husband was thinking of ending the affair. I am not sure about their marriage other than her husband telling me he was divorcing her when the OBS and I spoke on DDay2. 

[Alpacalia]

22 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

The first time I was viewed as a fool and taken advantage of. This time my blinders are off. He is gaining self awareness and learning a lot about himself in IC.  

If you want to stay, fix the underlying issue that led to him cheating (people that cheat always have an underlying reason, ego, insecurity, being a sneaky chronic tool; and this underlying cause absolutely has to be resolved) then he needs to agree to go to a good, male therapist at least once a month or more (I advise once a week for a few months, then tapering to once a month) and BOTH of you should go to couples counseling. 

The therapist will be able to gain insight into your interaction and help you build trust, intimacy, and active communication.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

OP, I have read this entire thread and haven't seen this question asked or answered.

Are you sexually attracted to your husband?  If not, were you ever?  I don't mean finding him physically attractive, that's different.

I mean raw, unadulterated animal attraction.

I don't think this has much to do with mismatched libidos or sexual incompatibility, that's a cope.

When there is high mutual sexual attraction and sexual passion, the sex works beautifully, instinctively, naturally, organically. 

I'm sensing you're not (sexually attracted).  My take from reading this thread is you can take or leave having sex with your husband, it's not a priority and never was. 

Trust me, HE can feel that from you.  Your lack of sexual attraction, your lack sexual passion for him. 

Which is what drove him into the arms of another woman, for six years.  He was getting this basic need from her and not from his own wife. I find that sad, sorry. 

That's my read on this anyway. 

I don't mean to judge but the way write, you sound like a victim which I don't believe you are.

There are no "victims" just two people whose marriage broke down and couldn't find healthy ways to put back together. 

Your husband broke vows, yes, but he had needs that were not being met, he's human.

I understand this as my dad experienced same with mom who was never sexually attracted to him, sex was low on her priority list and she married him and stayed for family, social status and my dad was a great father and provider. 

Not a good reason to marry OR stay imo and my dad eventually left to marry the woman who was sexually attracted to him, who loved him the way a man needs to be loved and desired. 

She became the love of his life until she passed and as his daughter I was happy he got to experience that before HE passed. 

You wrote you need him to make you feel "safe," ugh.  What about what HE needs from you?

Surely a woman who doesn't envision love and sexual desire as something derived from familiarity and overcoming struggles together?

It takes two to make a good marriage and two to break it.

My advice is stop playing the victim and starting owning your role in the breakdown and why he chose to look elsewhere.

And if you are no longer sexually attracted, if you ever were, end the marriage.  

You're not doing your kids any favors by staying and having them witness that type of cold environment from their parents. 

It will do them more harm than good, trust me on that. 

JMO, all the best. 

 

 

 

 

You very much sound like someone who is or has been the OW. If the sexual relationship was a problem for him, then he should have suggested counseling or a sex therapist. He could have even asked for a divorce. He did none of those and cheated instead. Blaming me for not meeting his sexual needs and making him feel desired is crap and seems like blaming the BS.  
 

No our relationship was not based on raw animal attraction that you speak of. I am attracted to my husband but no don’t feel like I want to rip his clothes off all the time.  I would argue that most adult relationships are not. Like most people our sex life tapered with children and responsibilities but it wasn’t like we went from feast to famine. We have never been overly sexual with each other. Other than occasionally making comments about not getting it enough in the past, my husband did communicate to me that he felt undesirable. He would ask for more sex and I would accommodate for a bit then kind of resume the pattern.

It would be ridiculous to say that staying married for family, social status and finances isn’t part of the equation. It always is. No relationship survives on sexual attraction alone. If the sexual attraction between them was so amazing, then why didn’t he leave when he had the chance? I told him to go be with her and he said that is not what he wants. He wants what is right here with his family. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Hopefullyjaded9
Error

[RebeccaR]

25 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

We have never been overly sexual with each other.

I’m just trying to understand. Earlier you said he wants it all the time. Was he always like this, or just since the affair started? Strangely, a hot sexual affair can make a person want it more with their spouse too.

 I don’t agree that you need animal attraction all the time in a marriage and I agree that an affair is not the right way to handle sexual dissatisfaction. I do wonder if now that your husband has had 6 years of sex with a partner (yes) he was apparently highly attracted to, whether he’ll be able to go back to a mundane married sex life. It just seems the two of you have grown apart in so many ways, that staying married may be difficult for both of you.

Aside from differences, now you know a skillful liar he is, I don’t know how you’ll be able to trust him.

[poppyfields]

44 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

You very much sound like someone who is or has been the OW.

No I have never been the OW (nor would I ever be) nor have I ever been the BS (I am happily married).   What I am however is understanding that in a marriage, both people have needs and when those needs are not being met, it can cause real problems, including infidelity, sadly.  It's a fact of life, no sense denying it.

And when the BS plays victim, and refuses to own her role in why things went haywire, then chances of reconciliation are slim to none.

I agree he was wrong to step out of the marriage to get his needs met, but as in all these threads, we are not hearing HIS side of things.  Of course, he could have made different choices including not cheating, but how is blaming him for that going to help your marriage succeed?  How is blaming him for betraying you, hurting you, making you feel unsafe going to lead to a happy positive reconciliation wherein both people understand each other's needs and take steps to meet those needs?

And of course marriage isn't based on raw animal attraction but you posted sex is NOT a priority for you (and never was) and all I am saying is that IF you were sexually attracted (and I am sorry but sexual attraction IS important in a marriage (otherwise it's a friendship and I find it sad you don't think so), your husband is going to feel that it and it WILL affect him in a profound way now and going forward.

To ignore that is a huge mistake imo, again assuming your goal is reconciling leading to a mutually satisfying, rewarding and happy marriage.

If you don't change your attitude about this, and stop playing victim and blaming HIM, I guarantee you, this affair might be done, but there WILL be another.  And perhaps next time, she will be single or a widow and he will leave the marriage to be with her, just like what happened with my dad.

Again, all the best.

Edited February 21, 2023 by poppyfields

[stillafool]

20 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Quote

You very much sound like someone who is or has been the OW.

No, Poppy is a married woman.

Quote

If the sexual relationship was a problem for him, then he should have suggested counseling or a sex therapist. He could have even asked for a divorce. He did none of those and cheated instead. Blaming me for not meeting his sexual needs and making him feel desired is crap and seems like blaming the BS.  

I agree that his cheating was not your fault.  Did he ever complain about a lack of sex with you?  Are you sexually attracted to him?  I think that is a valid question.  Some wives have long lost any sexual desire for their husband but look more to him as a provider and protector.  Sex rates high on the list of a happy relationship to men and some women too.  You yourself said your husband has a high sex drive and if yours do not match, I don't think counseling can help that.  That is no fault of yours but it still doesn't aadress his needs and that leaves the door open for another woman.
 

Quote

No our relationship was not based on raw animal attraction that you speak of. I am attracted to my husband but no don’t feel like I want to rip his clothes off all the time.  I would argue that most adult relationships are not. Like most people our sex life tapered with children and responsibilities but it wasn’t like we went from feast to famine. We have never been overly sexual with each other. Other than occasionally making comments about not getting it enough in the past, my husband did communicate to me that he felt undesirable. He would ask for more sex and I would accommodate for a bit then kind of resume the pattern.

There's a big difference in having sex with someone who is just accomodating and someone who actually wants you the way you want them.  There's no comparison.  It's not your fault.  You two are sexually incompatible.  You can live with that; but your husband cannot for long without going back to the source.   There are couples who have been married for many years who still have that raw animal attraction.  There was a man on this board yesterday bragging about how much sex he and his wife still have after having kids and being married many years.  Then another lady joined in that she and her husband have sex 3 times a day still after being married many years.

Quote

It would be ridiculous to say that staying married for family, social status and finances isn’t part of the equation. It always is. No relationship survives on sexual attraction alone. If the sexual attraction between them was so amazing, then why didn’t he leave when he had the chance? I told him to go be with her and he said that is not what he wants. He wants what is right here with his family. 

 

You're right that no marriage survives on great sex alone.  But it does make you want to do everything possible to keep that connection you have with your spouse.  Your husband didn't leave because of his daughters, his house, half his pension and savings.  Basically because he would lose his life's work if he did.  He may change his mind after his girls go off to college and leave home.

[poppyfields]

1 hour ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

No our relationship was not based on raw animal attraction that you speak of. I am attracted to my husband but no don’t feel like I want to rip his clothes off all the time.  I would argue that most adult relationships are not.

You're correct, they are not.  Attraction ebbs and flows.  However, sexual attraction should be there at least on some level.  To not desire sex with your husband is NOT due to different libidos or sexual incompatibility, THAT is a load of * imo.

Again, IF you were sexually attracted and enjoyed sex with your husband, the sex WOULD work and be satisfying for both of you.  It may not be skyrockets every time but at least he would feel desired by you which is hugely important.   Feeling desired should be for you too!

Agree it is not your "fault" he cheated, he made that decision all on his own and he should OWN that.  But to continue to blame him, punish him, require him to "make" you feel safe, I think that is wrong.

It's YOUR responsibility to make yourself feel safe including leaving the marriage if necessary, and if you don't trust him, believe he is a liar, and refuse to take any responsibility for why may have stepped out and own your role, there isn't snowball's chance in hell your marriage will ever be happy or work.   You will become two people going through the motions which isn't any way to live at all.

And as I said, your children WILL feel that as well, and it will affect them deeply and how they view relationships and marriage themselves.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by poppyfields

[Alpacalia]

OP not to interject with my friend's situation but her and her husband had a very active sex life and he stepped out of the relationship because he CHOSE to. These excuses are what you typically hear from the person that cheats to absolve responsibility. Cheating is not inevitable or unavoidable, and many men are able to maintain fulfilling and faithful relationships with their partners. Might want to find one of those. 

[poppyfields]

I agree with @Alpacaliathere are men who lack moral character and integrity and will cheat just for the sake of having variety, ego boost or because they feel entitled to.

However, I don't sense that is the case with your husband as he was with the same woman for six years and he fell in love with her.  I don't sense it was just about the sex either, a man does not stay with a woman and fall in love with her for six years for variety, ego boost or because he feels entitled.

There was something deeper going on between them and I think it's a mistake that you attempt to justify this as well as claiming it wasn't "real love," or whatever story you're telling yourself (sorry).

Of course it was love.  May not be YOUR version of love which as you said is about familiarity and working through issues together, but for many people. love is a very strong emotion, it's passionate, it's sexy.

Again NOT skyrockets every time, it ebbs and flows.  Peaks and valleys. 

But it very much IS love in it's purest form.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by poppyfields

[Hopefullyjaded9]

28 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I’m just trying to understand. Earlier you said he wants it all the time. Was he always like this, or just since the affair started? Strangely, a hot sexual affair can make a person want it more with their spouse too.

 I don’t agree that you need animal attraction all the time in a marriage and I agree that an affair is not the right way to handle sexual dissatisfaction. I do wonder if now that your husband has had 6 years of sex with a partner (yes) he was apparently highly attracted to, whether he’ll be able to go back to a mundane married sex life. It just seems the two of you have grown apart in so many ways, that staying married may be difficult for both of you.

Aside from differences, now you know a skillful liar he is, I don’t know how you’ll be able to trust him.

My husband prior to the affair would have sex anytime initiated. He is just the type of person that would have sex every day if he could. We never had that type of relationship even early on. We had sex regularly but it was never daily or multiple times in a day. Our sex life was actually the lowest during the affairs. I guess because he was getting it elsewhere he didn’t have to initiate with me. If I would ask if he wanted to be intimate, he was always interested. I am in early menopause and having some health things that made me not very interested so the lack of sex during the affair was somewhat of a relief. I would apologize to him for not being sexual and he would it was ok and he can just jerk off. Sounds ridiculous to type it out but it worked for me. Moving forward I know we can’t continue to be like this in our relationship.  I am just not sure I can get to there especially now. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

14 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

You're correct, they are not.  Attraction ebbs and flows.  However, sexual attraction should be there at least on some level.  To not desire sex with your husband is NOT due to different libidos or sexual incompatibility, THAT is a load of * imo.

Again, IF you were sexually attracted and enjoyed sex with your husband, the sex WOULD work and be satisfying for both of you.  It may not be skyrockets every time but at least he would feel desired by you which is hugely important.   Feeling desired should be for you too!

Agree it is not your "fault" he cheated, he made that decision all on his own and he should OWN that.  But to continue to blame him, punish him, require him to "make" you feel safe, I think that is wrong.

It's YOUR responsibility to make yourself feel safe including leaving the marriage if necessary, and if you don't trust him, believe he is a liar, and refuse to take any responsibility for why may have stepped out, there isn't snowball's chance in hell your marriage will ever be happy or work.   You will become two people going through the motions which isn't any way to live at all.

And as I said, your children WILL feel that as well, and it will affect them deeply and how they view relationships and marriage themselves.

 

We are working in MC to work through our issues. Unfortunately after infidelity it is 1,000 harder. I am angry and resentful. It is harder to acknowledge the issues from years ago knowing he was a selfish bastard who just wanted an escape from the marriage vs doing the work. Suddenly now that he wants to work in the relationship, I am the one expected to be accommodating to that. It is not fair and doesn’t sit well with me. I am getting there but not there yet. He had years to work through his s*** with his slut to come to the realization that this is what he wants. It has only been a few months and I can’t say I am at a place of being able to work on the pre affair marriage dynamic. I am not the same. He is not the same. I am giving myself to me to get there but it is really hard to say yes I should have been more open to meeting your sexual needs knowing he didn’t care enough to ask to work on those needs with me in a real way. He just selfishly went of to fill that void. I don’t want him thinking it in any way justifies what he did and I have a feeling in his mind he was entitled to the affair for that very reason. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

21 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

You're correct, they are not.  Attraction ebbs and flows.  However, sexual attraction should be there at least on some level.  To not desire sex with your husband is NOT due to different libidos or sexual incompatibility, THAT is a load of * imo.

Again, IF you were sexually attracted and enjoyed sex with your husband, the sex WOULD work and be satisfying for both of you.  It may not be skyrockets every time but at least he would feel desired by you which is hugely important.   Feeling desired should be for you too!

Agree it is not your "fault" he cheated, he made that decision all on his own and he should OWN that.  But to continue to blame him, punish him, require him to "make" you feel safe, I think that is wrong.

It's YOUR responsibility to make yourself feel safe including leaving the marriage if necessary, and if you don't trust him, believe he is a liar, and refuse to take any responsibility for why may have stepped out and own your role, there isn't snowball's chance in hell your marriage will ever be happy or work.   You will become two people going through the motions which isn't any way to live at all.

And as I said, your children WILL feel that as well, and it will affect them deeply and how they view relationships and marriage themselves.

 

I am sexually attracted to him and do enjoy it. I just don’t feel like having sex every day. 

[Alpacalia]

Yes PF.

Regardless of the reason, the person decided to have an affair instead of addressing their relationship dissatisfaction directly. By choosing to go outside the relationship, your husband undermined his credibility in attempting to motivate you to make changes in the relationship.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Alpacalia

[poppyfields]

6 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I am angry and resentful. It is harder to acknowledge the issues from years ago knowing he was a selfish bastard who just wanted an escape from the marriage vs doing the work. Suddenly now that he wants to work in the relationship, I am the one expected to be accommodating to that. It is not fair and doesn’t sit well with me.

I don't think anyone including myself expects you to be "accommodating."  I never said that nor do I believe it.

What I suggested was to at the very least, own your role.  As HE should own HIS role.  That is how two people in any relationship or marriage successfully resolve issues.

By attempting to "understand," versus blame and punish.

Bolded, wow.  I guess there is not much more to say, is there.  In your eyes he is a "selfish bastard" who simply wanted an "escape" from the marriage.

Personally, I think it went a whole lot deeper than that, but you're entitled to your feelings.

I guess I just don't understand what you hope to accomplish by remaining, there is nothing good or positive here from what I can see.

But wish you the best regardless.

Be happy.

 

 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:59 AM, poppyfields said:

I agree with @Alpacaliathere are men who lack moral character and integrity and will cheat just for the sake of having variety, ego boost or because they feel entitled to.

However, I don't sense that is the case with your husband as he was with the same woman for six years and he fell in love with her.  I don't sense it was just about the sex either, a man does not stay with a woman and fall in love with her for six years for variety, ego boost or because he feels entitled.

There was something deeper going on between them and I think it's a mistake that you attempt to justify this as well as claiming it wasn't "real love," or whatever story you're telling yourself (sorry).

Of course it was love.  May not be YOUR version of love which as you said is about familiarity and working through issues together, but for many people. love is a very strong emotion, it's passionate, it's sexy.

Again NOT skyrockets every time, it ebbs and flows.  Peaks and valleys. 

But it very much IS love in it's purest form.

 

 

Suppose what you are saying is true. That he loved her and they had a passionate and sexy relationship. How am I supposed to get him to admit to that? He admitted to thinking he loved her while they were together. He now says that it wasn’t true love like what we have. He didn’t want to share his life with her because he realizes it wasn’t really love but just infatuation/limerence/lust or whatever term you want to use. I have asked him many details about their sexual relationship. He has said the sex was just sex. It was exciting because they had to sneak around but that it was not the kind of sex like I am imaging in my head. I have no way of proving it one way or the other. If it was mind-altering sex he can’t tell me that knowing sex is already a hurdle for me. If it was the type of sexual relationship you describe, how I am supposed to believe he can transfer that into our relationship after having it and losing it with her. This is why I still hate him in some ways. I am [ ]  either way because of what he did. We had a chance to fix thing pre-affair but now everything seems unfixable at times. I can’t twist myself into a pretzel being someone I am not for him either. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Alpacalia]

9 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I can’t twist myself into a pretzel being someone I am not for him either. 

No, don't do that.

You also have to wonder. Does your husband regret cheating? Or does he regret that he got caught? He may be sorry that he hurt you. But not regret the affair.