Third time the charm?

[notbroken]

Honestly,  I doubt the resentments built up between you and your husband will ever go away enough for  either of you to be happy.   I tried staying with an unfaithful spouse and 'rug swept' much as you did.  14 years later she cheated again and blamed me.  It just wasn't worth it.  I realized I could NEVER really forgive her and was never going to be truly happy with her.  Move on.   Yes, it is hard to divorce.   A life without the potential to be happy is even harder.  Why would you choose to be with someone you don't trust?  Could you ever really trust him?  I know I couldn't.   Good luck. 

[Nowherenear]

I think the sex issue and the OP's excuse to not have sex that much anymore because of her H's infidelity (but in reality because she doesn't really want to have sex) is one of the main reasons she tolerates everything that happened. She even said it herself, she is not interested in finding another man who will maybe have his own flaws. She is comfortable with the flaws she is familiar with, her H's flaws. But because she wants to keep her own integrity to a satisfying level, she insists that she will check on him all the time and that the third time he cheats she will not forgive him anymore. I think that deep inside she knows all these things to be true, of course she won't admit them openly here among strangers. In my opinion, the marriage she now has, with a man who she loves, he is a good father, he is (now) a good H who is doing his best to show how much he regrets cheating and how much he wants to stay in his family, along with the positives that come with that (the help of a co=parent, a big salary, a family that looks OK to the outsiders, a social cycle) added with the satisfaction that she won over the OW, is the best marriage she can "afford". The OP is satisfied and nobody can convince her that she is not. That's why I side with her and I think she is making the right choice to stay. There are of course some things that "stink", but the things that don't "stink" are enough for her for now.

[NuevoYorko]

As I've grown older,  one thing has changed dramatically for me:  I no longer believe that we need to stand by our commitments when / if we realize that they are no longer healthy for us.  

In short, if we are in a marriage  where we are truly unhappy, we do not need to stay, despite the fact that we made a vow to stay.

Hopefully the vows give us the strength of character and will to try to work through all the difficulties without bailing.

In the end, it's our life.  It's the only one we have.  If / when we deeply realize that a person or environment is hurting our soul,  we owe it to ourselves to consider moving on.

I bring this up here because I think it's often overlooked when people are "working on the marriage" in counseling, as a couple or individually. 

In this situation, either you, OP, or your husband - maybe both - will come to the point of facing this.   I'm still challenged about why you want to be with this man who not only has put you through hell, but who you describe as "a liar and a cheat."  Which are earned descriptors, but ... when you are in therapy, are you actually open to the possibility that you might be ready to close the door on this marriage?  Honestly I can't imagine living with someone simply observing whether their character changes or not.

As for your husband, I'm certainly not taking his side, but I do believe he had and may still have a strong will to be out of this marriage.  He just took the very weak way.   His path in therapy might not lead him to any kind of "fixing" but instead to the strength of character to leave it.  

 

[BrinnM]

11 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

His path in therapy might not lead him to any kind of "fixing" but instead to the strength of character to leave it.  

Yes. Especially if he’s in IC. MC is different, but in individual counseling your therapist will always look out for your individual wellbeing. I had a coworker who had an affair in the workplace, and when he told his wife (or maybe she found out, not sure), they decided to do MC & IC. Her hope was that his therapist would “straighten him out”, so to speak, but after a few sessions, he decided to divorce her.
 

He had learned to face his fears, and do what’s best for him, and how to communicate this to his then-family, despite a long-term marriage & 2 teenage kids. His GF was in a relationship as well (not married, but LT, living together and a younger child). She separated as well and they’ve now been married for 15 or so years. They also had a baby not long after the divorce. His kids are now adults, and they seem to have a good relationship with their dad and his wife and the new family. They go on vacations together and stuff. So yeah, IC can often lead to an outcome that will surprise the “betrayed”. 

[BaileyB]

Very well said NuevoYorko. I could not agree more.

Edited February 26, 2023 by BaileyB

[Mrin]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:20 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

This is why I still hate him in some ways. I am [ ]  either way because of what he did. We had a chance to fix thing pre-affair but now everything seems unfixable at times. I can’t twist myself into a pretzel being someone I am not for him either. 

Hey there, just jumping into this thread. The above quote really struck home for me. This really feels like a no win situation for you doesn't it? And I am pretty sure I agree with you - especially with the second affair happening. 

I might have missed it but did you ever take a stance on opening the marriage up? I saw it was suggested at one point.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

22 hours ago, notbroken said:

Honestly,  I doubt the resentments built up between you and your husband will ever go away enough for  either of you to be happy.   I tried staying with an unfaithful spouse and 'rug swept' much as you did.  14 years later she cheated again and blamed me.  It just wasn't worth it.  I realized I could NEVER really forgive her and was never going to be truly happy with her.  Move on.   Yes, it is hard to divorce.   A life without the potential to be happy is even harder.  Why would you choose to be with someone you don't trust?  Could you ever really trust him?  I know I couldn't.   Good luck. 

I am sorry that happened to you. It really is devastating. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

1 hour ago, Mrin said:

Hey there, just jumping into this thread. The above quote really struck home for me. This really feels like a no win situation for you doesn't it? And I am pretty sure I agree with you - especially with the second affair happening. 

I might have missed it but did you ever take a stance on opening the marriage up? I saw it was suggested at one point.

I have no desire to open the relationship nor do I believe in a marriage like that. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 hours ago, BrinnM said:

Yes. Especially if he’s in IC. MC is different, but in individual counseling your therapist will always look out for your individual wellbeing. I had a coworker who had an affair in the workplace, and when he told his wife (or maybe she found out, not sure), they decided to do MC & IC. Her hope was that his therapist would “straighten him out”, so to speak, but after a few sessions, he decided to divorce her.
 

He had learned to face his fears, and do what’s best for him, and how to communicate this to his then-family, despite a long-term marriage & 2 teenage kids. His GF was in a relationship as well (not married, but LT, living together and a younger child). She separated as well and they’ve now been married for 15 or so years. They also had a baby not long after the divorce. His kids are now adults, and they seem to have a good relationship with their dad and his wife and the new family. They go on vacations together and stuff. So yeah, IC can often lead to an outcome that will surprise the “betrayed”. 

We are doing both IC and MC. His focus in therapy is working in his poor coping and relationship skills and how to live with integrity. His is also working on how to repair his relationship with our daughters. He cannot see a life without being with them full time. I know people commenting on this thread think he is unredeemable but he wants to stay married and be with his children 100% of the time. Yes sex is more important to him than it is to me and we will work on that but only 5 months out from DDay 2 that is not the main focus of our repair at the moment and other things must be worked through before we can tackle that.  There are people who have affairs that are horrified by what they did and what they have become. My husband has been showing me everything to make me believe that is the group he falls into. After he was caught the first time, we pretended like nothing happened which is what caused it to happen again. There were no consequences or need to change his behaviors. This time there is and it has changed everything. Other than giving it time to play out, my only option is filing for divorce right now which doesn’t feel right for ME. I am staying right now for ME. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

8 hours ago, Nowherenear said:

I think the sex issue and the OP's excuse to not have sex that much anymore because of her H's infidelity (but in reality because she doesn't really want to have sex) is one of the main reasons she tolerates everything that happened. She even said it herself, she is not interested in finding another man who will maybe have his own flaws. She is comfortable with the flaws she is familiar with, her H's flaws. But because she wants to keep her own integrity to a satisfying level, she insists that she will check on him all the time and that the third time he cheats she will not forgive him anymore. I think that deep inside she knows all these things to be true, of course she won't admit them openly here among strangers. In my opinion, the marriage she now has, with a man who she loves, he is a good father, he is (now) a good H who is doing his best to show how much he regrets cheating and how much he wants to stay in his family, along with the positives that come with that (the help of a co=parent, a big salary, a family that looks OK to the outsiders, a social cycle) added with the satisfaction that she won over the OW, is the best marriage she can "afford". The OP is satisfied and nobody can convince her that she is not. That's why I side with her and I think she is making the right choice to stay. There are of course some things that "stink", but the things that don't "stink" are enough for her for now.

This I believe is right on the money.

[S2B]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:19 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I thought I had a line in the sand after DDay1. Then DDay2 happened and I did push the line back. I just didn’t have it in me to follow through like I thought I could. I am holding myself to it this time that if he does not showing true remorse and work then it is over. If he has any contact with with OW then it is over. I know most people will say that he already knows I won’t do this after not following through with divorce this last time but if it happens again after us doing reconciliation the right way this time he will never change and I need to protect myself and my kids. 

Use this time to set yourself up for the time when he will cheat again. Because he will.

he’s cheated numerous times and you haven’t left him = he knows he can do it again - and you’ll find another excuse to stay. 

you will never be capable of trusting him and he will never be capable of respecting you.

people change very little when there are no consequences. He’s had none.

you keep lying to yourself that he will change - he won’t. He will just hide it better next time.

[S2B]

Quote

I am staying right now for ME. 

 

No one would stay for themselves after cheating = IF you were considering what’s BEST for yourself after multiple times of cheating - you would be leaving him…IF you were thinking of yourself.

those kinds of comments don’t fool me - I’ve seen way too much from cheaters to think that could be a healthy comment. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by S2B

[NuevoYorko]

5 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

This I believe is right on the money.

You are in agreement that part of your drive to reconcile, and why you've tolerated this for years,  is due to the fact that it gets you off the hook for having sex with him?   

[Weezy1973]

Before I had kids, I never really understood staying together for the kids. In fact, I'd say if the marriage is toxic, staying together is probably worse for the kids. I've known a few people who's parents had toxic marriages that ended in divorce and they agree that the divorce was one of the best things that could happen. So to me it hinges on the nature of the marriage and the family dynamic. If there's nothing but resentment and anger from the OPs side, then this should just end. @Hopefullyjaded9 if you're wanting to make the marriage work solely because it's easier to have a partner who earns a good salary, and is a good co-parent, despite underlying anger / hate / resentment, that's really not the best thing for your kids.

I don't buy the argument that you're setting a bad example by staying. If you can truly forgive your husband, and together create a healthy relationship and family dynamic, then you'd actually be setting a great example.  But only you know what's going on in your head. Staying could actually be the easy way out, and you're kids will pay the price. Being a single parent is scary. So really think about why you're fighting for this. Is it because you love your husband and are on the path to forgiveness? Or is it because it's easier than divorcing?

[S2B]

On 2/17/2023 at 3:16 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

That is exactly what I am afraid of yet I am so uncertain that divorce is the right choice. I thought if it happened again I would be done with no questions asked but I don’t feel that way and don’t want to regret acting too quickly. 

I do think it is a character defect. Do you mind me asking if you and your husband got counseling between the 10 year and 20 year affair? Did he do anything in between to change himself? My husband did not but is now getting help which almost makes it more confusing. You do hear of successful reconciliation stories when they really want it. 

Yes we did counseling. Yes he was great for almost ten more years.

yes he just decided to be totally interested in someone else and I could see the red flags and started digging.

oddly enough - his next wife (yes, he really likes to be married - but not faithful) was also a really nice gal - and he cheated on her too. He likes to be married but also likes his separate women. He likes pulling a fast one on the women he was married to. It’s like he got joy out of fooling then.

some men just cheat. I see you want it not to be true. But you better be paying attention. He will cheat when he thinks you won’t find out.

start setting up separate bank accounts now - for yourself only. Put plenty of money in that account in case you need it. Open separate credit cards so you build your own credit. See an attorney to know what you would expect - should you divorce him. 

be smart. Do not trust him.

I worry you want this to work too much. Never sacrifice your self esteem for any man - especially one who betrays you - twice! 

 

[S2B]

Do you work? Full time or part time?

[JTSW]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:24 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He has to get help, work on himself and prove himself a changed man for this to work.  That will take time.  If he messes up by lying again, or having another affair, I am looking at the positives of staying married longer like increased spousal support, more time away from AP to get out of the hooks of that relationship.

Honey you are deluded. 

The affair was 6 years long and they were in love.

That won't go away over night, if ever.

One of them is going to contact the other eventually.

[BlueberryPie]

Just a little vision here, if you want:

You start thinking more and more about a brand new life, and find yourself looking up real estate listings online and driving by them. A smaller but cute house or condo, in your name only. Something near where you need to go and easy to keep up.

You keep thinking about a carefree life, where you feel calm and joyous. In fact, you become so obsessed with the idea that it could almost be a hot new lover. The idea keeps growing. You start looking online for furniture, sketching out an herb garden. Maybe you'll get a cat.

One day, with great excitement, you make the leap.

Soon, your new place is decorated and furnished to your taste. You enjoy shopping with your kids, for their new bedrooms too.

You join activities, lessons, make new single friends, who you laugh with like you did with your pals in high school. Go on dates and trips and such, especially when your teenagers are with their dad.

You wake up each day and exhale deeply because the anxiety, the insecurities, the pain, the anger-- all that ugly, heavy, humiliating, soul shrinking baggage you'd gotten so used to, you didn't even realize how much it dimmed your light -- It was all left behind, at that other place. 

He comes to drop off your kids but he knows by now to let them out at the curb. He never really had your back. You just prefer that he stay in the past.

The End!

Edited February 28, 2023 by BlueberryPie

[S2B]

Start working full time and place that money in your name only. 
 

you need to start planning your future for when you are on your own! Make a plan - stick to it.

do not continue counting on him for your future/needs/to support you.

[Nowherenear]

1 hour ago, BlueberryPie said:

In fact, you become so obsessed with the idea that it could almost be a hot new lover.

I don't think you've noticed that the OP is not interested in finding a new lover or even having sex for that matter.

[BlueberryPie]

I

7 minutes ago, Nowherenear said:

I don't think you've noticed that the OP is not interested in finding a new lover or even having sex for that matter.

You misread my post.

[Will am I]

I strongly support what @S2Bsays here. Make an exit plan OP.

I really appreciate your devotion to your marriage. But regardless of your intentions and actions to remain married, your marriage is not safe right now. There is a realistic chance that  your husband will gravitate back to his twice-xOW and there is a chance that upon further consideration you did have enough.

Being prepared is smart and recommendable. Also: if you want to keep a man interested, don’t be the helpless person who is going to stick around no matter what.

 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 hours ago, BlueberryPie said:

Just a little vision here, if you want:

You start thinking more and more about a brand new life, and find yourself looking up real estate listings online and driving by them. A smaller but cute house or condo, in your name only. Something near where you need to go and easy to keep up.

You keep thinking about a carefree life, where you feel calm and joyous. In fact, you become so obsessed with the idea that it could almost be a hot new lover. The idea keeps growing. You start looking online for furniture, sketching out an herb garden. Maybe you'll get a cat.

One day, with great excitement, you make the leap.

Soon, your new place is decorated and furnished to your taste. You enjoy shopping with your kids, for their new bedrooms too.

You join activities, lessons, make new single friends, who you laugh with like you did with your pals in high school. Go on dates and trips and such, especially when your teenagers are with their dad.

You wake up each day and exhale deeply because the anxiety, the insecurities, the pain, the anger-- all that ugly, heavy, humiliating, soul shrinking baggage you'd gotten so used to, you didn't even realize how much it dimmed your light -- It was all left behind, at that other place. 

He comes to drop off your kids but he knows by now to let them out at the curb. He never really had your back. You just prefer that he stay in the past.

The End!

While your vision sounds lovely for you, my vision is here with my children and husband in our dream home, in a community we love, and enjoying a good life together. This is the vision my entire family wants, including my husband. If my vision changes at some point, the. I will act accordingly but that is not what I want right now. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

46 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I strongly support what @S2Bsays here. Make an exit plan OP.

I really appreciate your devotion to your marriage. But regardless of your intentions and actions to remain married, your marriage is not safe right now. There is a realistic chance that  your husband will gravitate back to his twice-xOW and there is a chance that upon further consideration you did have enough.

Being prepared is smart and recommendable. Also: if you want to keep a man interested, don’t be the helpless person who is going to stick around no matter what.

 

He will not go back to her. Even if we divorce, he knows my children will never accept her in his life so that relationship is dead if he wants to remain in his children’s lives. 
 

I am not helpless. I do have my own accounts, my own money and would be ok on my own if needed. He would need to pay plenty in child and spousal support anyway so money is not an issue. I love our family and the life we have. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done to heal our relationship, but only time will tell. If he screws up again, I walk away with more than my fair share and my head held high knowing I did everything I could for my family and children. 

[Will am I]

I do not know how trustworthy your husband is. It may not be  smart, logical, rational or even sane for him to go back to his xOW. But then, it wasn’t such a smart idea the last time around either.

I would call this a healthy dose of distrust. Aim for the best, prepare for the worst.