Third time the charm?

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 minutes ago, JTSW said:

That's a really long time, in which they would have formed a strong connection.

I think he's lying about it being limerence. 

It went on far too long for there not to be any actual love there.

I don’t disagree yet when they were discovered and I told him to leave and go with her he said that is not what he wants. He has always maintained he never was planning to leave the marriage for her. If he loved her so much and the connection was so strong then why did he not just leave once they were caught a second time. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Hopefullyjaded9
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[JTSW]

2 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I don’t disagree yet when they were discovered and I told him to leave and go with her he said that is not what he wants. He has always maintained he never was planning to leave the marriage for her. 

Because he wanted to keep you both.

The only problem was that he got found out.

And once the dust settled, he went right back.

[Will am I]

17 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

our marriage was not that bad in recent years.

Were you in a rough patch earlier on? Does your husband happen to be the conflict avoidant type?

It seems as if his heart may have been out of the marriage for a longer time than you realize. 

 

The real question is why you want to be married to him in the future, and vice versa. Either you both find a new motivation or your marriage is over.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

11 minutes ago, JTSW said:

Because he wanted to keep you both.

The only problem was that he got found out.

And once the dust settled, he went right back.

Completely agree. This time I am not letting the dust settle. Doesn’t that change it? 

[stillafool]

28 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I am not turning them against him but I refuse to lie for him. I fully support their relationship with him. I however did not cheat and won’t deceive them to protect him. 

When you said "he will lose his kids" it didn't sound like you were supporting their relationship but were giving him a threat.  Even if he cheats on you and falls out of love he will always love his daughters.

[JTSW]

3 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Completely agree. This time I am not letting the dust settle. Doesn’t that change it? 

Sorry but no.

He will just get more clever about it.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Were you in a rough patch earlier on? Does your husband happen to be the conflict avoidant type?

It seems as if his heart may have been out of the marriage for a longer time than you realize. 

 

The real question is why you want to be married to him in the future, and vice versa. Either you both find a new motivation or your marriage is over.

He is not conflict avoidant but more emotionally avoidant. He is very good at compartmentalizing things. He has definitely been out of the marriage for a while. We both tend to be very independent people. If I am being honest, I was out emotionally too. We were complacent. He would complain about our lack of intimacy and I basically said I’ll try to work on it and never did. 
 

He does still have a lot of good qualities. He is intelligent, hard working, generous, a good father, etc.. but he is also a liar and a cheat. Does that negate all the good things? I’m not sure yet. I know I don’t trust him. I am devastated by what he did to me and us but I am not 100% convinced divorce is the answer.  

[Hopefullyjaded9]

1 minute ago, JTSW said:

Sorry but no.

He will just get more clever about it.

But is already did that. He already thought he got more clever and resumed with the OW. Now I am much smarter about it knowing how he operates. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

5 minutes ago, stillafool said:

When you said "he will lose his kids" it didn't sound like you were supporting their relationship but were giving him a threat.  Even if he cheats on you and falls out of love he will always love his daughters.

They told him if he cheated on me again that they would never talk to him. They also told him they would never accept the OW. This came from them. Not me. 

[Will am I]

5 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He does still have a lot of good qualities. He is intelligent, hard working, generous, a good father, etc.. but he is also a liar and a cheat. Does that negate all the good things? I’m not sure yet.

Can these things ever negate one another? They may be different dimensions.

 

5 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I know I don’t trust him.

This observtion is central. You don't trust him (and for all the good reasons).

 

I want to advise strongly against proceeding in the marriage without trust. You will never feel right, never comfortable, never loved, always stressed, always worried, always wondering, always on edge. He will feel policed, treated like a child, unable to be himself, unable to show you his good sides.

 

Then this is the question that remains: can you rebuild your trust. If you envision a plan to make that happen, does the plan seem realistic to you?

 

 

 

 

[stillafool]

5 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

They told him if he cheated on me again that they would never talk to him. They also told him they would never accept the OW. This came from them. Not me. 

Family will say a lot of things when angry and hurt.  I've said horrible things to my loved ones too in anger but I still love them and don't want to lose them.  It doesn't surprise me that they told him that.  Time really does heal wounds and he is their blood.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Can these things ever negate one another? They may be different dimensions.

Great point

This observtion is central. You don't trust him (and for all the good reasons).

 

I want to advise strongly against proceeding in the marriage without trust. You will never feel right, never comfortable, never loved, always stressed, always worried, always wondering, always on edge. He will feel policed, treated like a child, unable to be himself, unable to show you his good sides.

 

Then this is the question that remains: can you rebuild your trust. If you envision a plan to make that happen, does the plan seem realistic to you?

I think that is exactly where I am at  giving it time to see if we can rebuild that trust.  If it never comes back, I will divorce him but I won’t know that unless we try. We have things in place now to support that rebuilding process like tracking, phone access etc. He admits to being a broken man and says he hates himself and wants to change. That he doesn’t want to live that way anymore, for all of us.  

 

 

 

 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

4 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Family will say a lot of things when angry and hurt.  I've said horrible things to my loved ones too in anger but I still love them and don't want to lose them.  It doesn't surprise me that they told him that.  Time really does heal wounds and he is their blood.

Yes true but I don’t think he is willing to test that out. I can admit that their hurt is what is killing him more vs our marriage. In a way this makes me sad, but at the same time I realize that his love for them is unconditional and a different type of love than spousal love. If we divorce he can find a new partner. He will never be able to replace them. 

[Will am I]

12 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

They told him if he cheated on me again that they would never talk to him. They also told him they would never accept the OW. This came from them. Not me. 

Your daughters may be a motivation too.

What message do you want to send most urgently?

A message of commitment and resilience (with the risk that it can also come across as indetermination, weakness, and dependence)?

Or a message about pride, strength and independence (at the risk that it may come across as recklessness and vindicativeness)?

 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

5 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Your daughters may be a motivation too.

What message do you want to send most urgently?

A message of commitment and resilience (with the risk that it can also come across as indetermination, weakness, and dependence)?

Or a message about pride, strength and independence (at the risk that it may come across as recklessness and vindicativeness)?

 

I am assuming you are asking about the message I want to send to the girls? Commitment is huge for me but I am also a very independent person in many ways. I think choosing to stay vs choosing to divorce does show strength but I know some people do not see it that way. I am willing to honor my vows of the good times and bad and not throw in the towel. He is showing the same right now. I think that is a good example for them. I do see your point though. My friend said the same thing to me about what lesson I want to teach my daughters. I know they want us to stay together so if we divorce, that is not the result they want. Some people say staying together for the kids is a bad idea and others say divorce is bad for the kids. Our home is not an unhappy one. There is not abuse or addiction. There is infidelity like many families. If we can show them that yes there is infidelity but look how we repaired and what a strong relationship we have now, isn’t that the best outcome? 

[Will am I]

6 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I think that is exactly where I am at  giving it time to see if we can rebuild that trust.  If it never comes back, I will divorce him but I won’t know that unless we try.

Old Dr. Phil quote about the saying that "time heals all wounds":

Time heals nothing. It's what you do with that time that matters.

 

6 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

We have things in place now to support that rebuilding process like tracking, phone access etc.

Those measures may be necessary temporarily for your sense of safety, but they won't fix anything and need to be left behind at some point. You don't want to be promoted from his wife to his mom. And he doesn't want his wife to become his mom either.

 

6 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He admits to being a broken man and says he hates himself and wants to change. That he doesn’t want to live that way anymore, for all of us.  

Red flags rising.

"I feel so bad"

"I'm a brokan man"

"I hate myself"

"I want to change (if only I knew how)"

That's victim talk. If he seems himself as a victim of circumstances, he's not manning up and taking ownership. Every effort at saving your marriage is futile unless you both take ownership. And so far he doesn't seem to be doing that.

 

[stillafool]

21 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

 If we divorce he can find a new partner. He will never be able to replace them. 

Well I imagine the same applies to you that if you divorce and find a new partner he will never replace their Dad.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

2 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Old Dr. Phil quote about the saying that "time heals all wounds":

Time heals nothing. It's what you do with that time that matters.

 

Those measures may be necessary temporarily for your sense of safety, but they won't fix anything and need to be left behind at some point. You don't want to be promoted from his wife to his mom. And he doesn't want his wife to become his mom either.

 

Red flags rising.

"I feel so bad"

"I'm a brokan man"

"I hate myself"

"I want to change (if only I knew how)"

That's victim talk. If he seems himself as a victim of circumstances, he's not manning up and taking ownership. Every effort at saving your marriage is futile unless you both take ownership. And so far he doesn't seem to be doing that.

 

Totally agree with the time quote. I made that mistake the first time. Not making it again this time. When I say I want to take time to see if trust can be restored, it come along with lots of therapy and reconciliation work. 
 

I do know some of these are temporary measures but some will be life long. I think I should be able to ask him for his phone at any time and he be able to turn it over with. I issues. If you have nothing to hide, then it shouldn’t be an issue. I have no desire to be his mother but he clearly needs to have some boundaries for a while for my sanity and to help hold him accountable. We are on a family app so the kids can see his whereabouts as well as mine. We plan on keeping this long term. 
 

Grest point about the victim mentality. I haven’t looked at it like that. I was looking at is as being self aware of his traumas and mistakes but you are correct. He feels like he has a harder life than most and definitely plays the victim. Not with me but in life in general.  

[Will am I]

My phone’s location is visible to my wife, I don’t consider that policing. More like convenience. Instead of calling me about my ETA for dinner she can look how far I am. This goes both ways.

I’m not sharing my location with the teenager though, I don’t see the purpose of that.

 

 

[S2B]

3 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Completely agree. This time I am not letting the dust settle. Doesn’t that change it? 

No, not if he likes his ego stroked by having an OW.

why are you so willing to work on this when he continues to betray you?

there is no trust in the marriage. There’s no respect that he’s giving you. So you really have nothing to work with.

and you don’t need to work on the marriage - HE needs to do ALL the hard work to find out what’s broken about him and how he’s never going to do this again. Some aren’t capable of doing that hard work.

but it’s not up to you to fix what HE ruined!

[S2B]

You describe him as a good father.

a good father wouldn’t cheat on their mom and create a double life away from the family unit.

please stop saying he’s a good father - he betrayed you kids as well as you. he ruined the family unit with his lies and actions - that is NOT a good father!
 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

23 minutes ago, S2B said:

No, not if he likes his ego stroked by having an OW.

why are you so willing to work on this when he continues to betray you?

there is no trust in the marriage. There’s no respect that he’s giving you. So you really have nothing to work with.

and you don’t need to work on the marriage - HE needs to do ALL the hard work to find out what’s broken about him and how he’s never going to do this again. Some aren’t capable of doing that hard work.

but it’s not up to you to fix what HE ruined!

He did need his ego stroked by her. He does need to do the work to not need that anymore and not repeat those patterns. I don’t feel responsible for fixing him or the relationship at all. But how can he attempt to fix anything if I don’t give him the chance to? He is the one making all of the effort right now. He knows I can go either way in terms of divorce. As I mentioned earlier as I have witnessed changes in him over the past few months, I am becoming more open to the idea of staying in the marriage. I am opening up to the possibility of a new, healthy relationship with him. I guess I was really looking for success stories of WS who did in fact change and never cheat again. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

29 minutes ago, S2B said:

You describe him as a good father.

a good father wouldn’t cheat on their mom and create a double life away from the family unit.

please stop saying he’s a good father - he betrayed you kids as well as you. he ruined the family unit with his lies and actions - that is NOT a good father!
 

I think that is hard sometimes because he really is a good dad who totally f***ed up. Almost feel like both are true. 

[BPBP]

I am so sorry you are going through this.

Your husband is in love with another woman, has been for many years.  You do not forget love like that.  He does not appear to be a serial cheater.  Their relationship IS both emotional and physical. Clearly he loves your daughters and will say anything to stay in marriage.  Note he did not end relationship with OW until it was found out.  Ending relationship with other woman is a sacrifice to stay with your children, not because he respects or loves you.  I know it sounds harsh.  You are scared to leave the marriage even if you claim to be independent. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

38 minutes ago, BPBP said:

I am so sorry you are going through this.

Your husband is in love with another woman, has been for many years.  You do not forget love like that.  He does not appear to be a serial cheater.  Their relationship IS both emotional and physical. Clearly he loves your daughters and will say anything to stay in marriage.  Note he did not end relationship with OW until it was found out.  Ending relationship with other woman is a sacrifice to stay with your children, not because he respects or loves you.  I know it sounds harsh.  You are scared to leave the marriage even if you claim to be independent. 

Thank you BPBP. This is the hardest thing ever. I think he did love her but that is not real love. He loved the idea of her. All the fun, sex, escape, etc. none of the bills, household responsibilities and real life things partners experience. He is realizing it was an illusion. You can’t really love someone you don’t have a real relationship with even if you think you do. You love the idea not the person.