Third time the charm?

[Hopefullyjaded9]

27 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Here's something on split self affairs from a site called therapyroute.com for you to think about.

The author is apparently: "Temple Obike is a licensed marriage and family therapist, speaker, author and psychotherapist who has counselled over one thousand, two hundred clients..."
 

 

Some of this description seems to fit and some is off. The OW was not significantly younger or wasn’t a subordinate. The therapist did call his a split self affair though. This is a lot of his IC work.  

[NuevoYorko]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:03 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

 

He does still have a lot of good qualities. He is intelligent, hard working, generous, a good father, etc.. but he is also a liar and a cheat. Does that negate all the good things? 

Not necessarily, it's up to you.   I do think you need to encompass "liar and cheat" into the package of what you are accepting when you remain in your marriage to this man.  There is no indication that he would change.   You might need to be the one who changes - to accepting a non-monogamous marriage.

There are plenty of cultures and individual marriages where one partner "turns the other cheek" to their spouse's dalliances.   

Edited February 18, 2023 by NuevoYorko

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

My husband said he didn’t know and didn’t care what they were doing when I asked in the past. 

I’m sorry, but how can he, and how can you, not know this? 

How long ago were they first discovered? And, how long did they continue together after that discovery? Do you mean to say that he never asked her what happened with her marriage after that first discovery?

No, not all of it fits but many things do fit very much. For example, it was a long term affair, very serious and very emotional. He was essentially leading a double life for six years. The focus was not as much on the marriage as it was the children, the family, the lifestyle, the fact that he is seen as a devoted family man. After all, this is essentially why he has ended the affair and returned to the family. It sounds very much like what we have been discussing. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by BaileyB

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He was able to give her up because his children demanded it. He will stay away.

That certainty is completely unfounded.

My experience is more associated with substance abuse in the family but the state of mind of the "user" is no different from the cheating spouse in an affair situation.

EVERYTHING is at stake and the user knows it, but their drive to "go out" can be all-powerful.  People lose their families, businesses, lives, knowing exactly the risks while they're taking them, ALL THE TIME.  And often after years of clean / sober living.

Chronic cheaters are no different.

If your husband is actually saying things like "I can give her up because my kids demand it, I will stay away," that would actually be a big old RED FLAG and nothing to feel comforted about.  That type of sentiment / statement shows that the person does not acknowledge the profundity of their own weakness in a specific situation.   

 

[RebeccaR]

I think even if he commits successfully to fidelity, there will always be an undercurrent of resentment from him that he had to give up his girlfriend, and from you (understandably) that he betrayed you for so long. Those resentments will be very difficult to overcome in the long term. I couldn’t do it.

Did he go to therapy on his own, or was it essentially imposed on him as a condition of keeping the family intact? The motivation is important in how he approaches it.

[Hopefullyjaded9]

3 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think even if he commits successfully to fidelity, there will always be an undercurrent of resentment from him that he had to give up his girlfriend, and from you (understandably) that he betrayed you for so long. Those resentments will be very difficult to overcome in the long term. I couldn’t do it.

Did he go to therapy on his own, or was it essentially imposed on him as a condition of keeping the family intact? The motivation is important in how he approaches it.

He sought out therapy. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

11 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I’m sorry, but how can he, and how can you, not know this? 

How long ago were they first discovered? And, how long did they continue together after that discovery? Do you mean to say that he never asked her what happened with her marriage after that first discovery?

No, not all of it fits but many things do fit very much. For example, it was a long term affair, very serious and very emotional. He was essentially leading a double life for six years. The focus was not as much on the marriage as it was the children, the family, the lifestyle, the fact that he is seen as a devoted family man. After all, this is essentially why he has ended the affair and returned to the family. It sounds very much like what we have been discussing. 

When I first found out in 2018, it was a 2 year affair. The OW and her husband stayed married back then. So did my husband and I. When I found out again in Sept 2022, her husband said they were divorcing but I don’t know 100% if they did. 1) should I try to find that out? And 2) How could I find that out? Our MC suggested early on in counseling that their marriage is irrelevant in ours from here on out. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

9 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think even if he commits successfully to fidelity, there will always be an undercurrent of resentment from him that he had to give up his girlfriend, and from you (understandably) that he betrayed you for so long. Those resentments will be very difficult to overcome in the long term. I couldn’t do it.

Did he go to therapy on his own, or was it essentially imposed on him as a condition of keeping the family intact? The motivation is important in how he approaches it.

Oh I am resentful and angry. We are working through that. He says that now he can see how bad she was for him. She put pressure on him and stress. He knows she lacks morals whereas I do not. He realizes I am a better partner moving forward. He said he would always worry she would cheat on him if they were ever together (the irony coming from a cheater). 

[mark clemson]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:18 PM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I knew we had relationship struggles for years but they didn’t feel abnormal and I had no idea he was cheating on me as we both seemed pretty content.

 

 He couldnt sleep or eat (I couldn’t either). He is so ashamed of what he did and knows it was wrong. He is fully taking responsibility for all the hurt he has caused and giving me all the info I ask for.

It's possible he'll feel bad enough to stay, which I suppose is positive if you want to stay married.

I think you might take a second look at one of the first sentences you wrote in your OP.

Is it possible your marriage was ok for you, but less so for him? It does seem like he was willing to risk you leaving to continue cheating. Now that's perhaps hit home a little harder, but still.

Hopefully MC will help you both build a marriage where you are both genuinely happy together. I'm not saying this will happen, but him staying primarily out of guilt and you prolonging things for increased spousal support, and you both "staying for the kids" seems like a road to nowhere, or at least nowhere particularly happy.

Ultimately a marriage is a choice (to stay in it). That choice can be made for all sorts of reasons, but not all of them result in a happy continuation for both partners. Hopefully that's something you can (both) address.

Edited February 18, 2023 by mark clemson

[Hopefullyjaded9]

22 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Not necessarily, it's up to you.   I do think you need to encompass "liar and cheat" into the package of what you are accepting when you remain in your marriage to this man.  There is no indication that he would change.   You might need to be the one who changes - to accepting a non-monogamous marriage.

There are plenty of cultures and individual marriages where one partner "turns the other cheek" to their spouse's dalliances.   

Cheating is very accepted in his culture. It is not in mine. His belief system regarding cheating needs to change. We have discussed this in MC. I will not turn the other cheek. 

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

When I first found out in 2018, it was a 2 year affair. The OW and her husband stayed married back then. So did my husband and I. When I found out again in Sept 2022, her husband said they were divorcing but I don’t know 100% if they did. 1) should I try to find that out? And 2) How could I find that out? Our MC suggested early on in counseling that their marriage is irrelevant in ours from here on out. 

Sorry, I was assuming that you didn’t know what they had decided back at the time of first discovery. 

At this point, I would say it’s irrelevant. I would focus more on myself and my husband than the OW. 

To expand, I think it’s only relevant in the context of the previous discussion about whether he chose to come back or whether it was really his only/best option. While he could always divorce and start over as a single man, it’s unlikely. And, if she stayed married - she isn’t really an option to him anymore. He’s not about to leave his marriage and his family if the woman that he wants to be with is not going to do the same. If she is not an option, he is of course going to want to stay with his family. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It's possible he'll feel bad enough to stay, which I suppose is positive if you want to stay married.

I think you might take a second look at one of the first sentences you wrote in your OP.

Is it possible your marriage was ok for you, but less so for him? It does seem like he was willing to risk you leaving to continue cheating. Now that's perhaps hit home a little harder, but still.

Hopefully MC will help you both build a marriage where you are both genuinely happy together. I'm not saying this will happen, but him staying primarily out of guilt and you prolonging things for increased spousal support, and you both "staying for the kids" seems like a road to nowhere, or at least nowhere particularly happy.

Ultimately a marriage is a choice (to stay in it). That choice can be made for all sorts of reasons, but not all of them result in a happy continuation for both partners. Hopefully that's something you can (both) address.

We are working on that in MC. I was mainly happy. He was not. He wants to work in being happy in the marriage and I am too. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Sorry, I was assuming that you didn’t know what they had decided back at the time of first discovery. 

At this point, I would say it’s irrelevant. I would focus more on myself and my husband than the OW. 

To expand, I think it’s only relevant in the context of the previous discussion about whether he chose to come back or whether it was really his only/best option. While he could always divorce and start over as a single man, it’s unlikely. And, if she stayed married - she isn’t really an option to him anymore. He’s not about to leave his marriage and his family if the woman that he wants to be with is not going to do the same. If she is not an option, he is of course going to want to stay with his family. 

He chose to end his relationship with her right away. Based on what the BH told me, he wanted nothing to do with his wife anymore so she was available if my husband wanted her. He did not which makes me believe him when he said he was never planning on divorcing me the entire time he was with her. 

[Will am I]

13 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

She put pressure on him and stress.

…

 she lacks morals

These statements sound like he’s the innocent one. Shifting the blame. Are these his statements?

[Hopefullyjaded9]

4 minutes ago, Will am I said:

These statements sound like he’s the innocent one. Shifting the blame. Are these his statements?

Yes they are. I happen to agree with the one about lacking morals. 

[Will am I]

I connect these statements to my earlier observation of “victim talk”.

There may be some parts to your husband that want to change, but he has not yet come to the point where he flipped the switch. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

5 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I connect these statements to my earlier observation of “victim talk”.

There may be some parts to your husband that want to change, but he has not yet come to the point where he flipped the switch. 

I do get what you are saying. He also could just be saying bullshit to me to make her seem bad and me feel better or he may mean it. It is something I will definitely bring up about the victim mentality. 

[BaileyB]

31 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He chose to end his relationship with her right away. Based on what the BH told me, he wanted nothing to do with his wife anymore so she was available if my husband wanted her. He did not which makes me believe him when he said he was never planning on divorcing me the entire time he was with her. 

It may also be part of why he chose her. Unavailable people tend to chose other unavailable people. A married woman is “safer” than a single woman who will be pressuring him to leave his marriage to be with her. 

Few men get involved in an affair with the intention of leaving their marriage. And, if you read these boards, it’s not uncommon for the OW to get unceremoniously dumped after  discovery or when either marriage ends.

As he told you, many MM see their affair partner with a different perspective they are discovered and/or his affair partner leaves her marriage and it becomes time to put their money where their mouth is. All the sudden, she is a woman of poor morals and a woman not to be trusted. She is the reason why he lost his marriage, or his children won’t speak with him, or his friends/family have lost respect for him. She doesn’t have the same shine that she had in the bubble of the affair, things look a little different in the real world. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

55 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

I was mainly happy. He was not.

What does he say was the cause of his unhappiness? 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

23 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It may also be part of why he chose her. Unavailable people tend to chose other unavailable people. A married woman is “safer” than a single woman who will be pressuring him to leave his marriage to be with her. 

Few men get involved in an affair with the intention of leaving their marriage. And, if you read these boards, it’s not uncommon for the OW to get unceremoniously dumped after  discovery or when either marriage ends.

As he told you, many MM see their affair partner with a different perspective they are discovered and/or his affair partner leaves her marriage and it becomes time to put their money where their mouth is. All the sudden, she is a woman of poor morals and a woman not to be trusted. She is the reason why he lost his marriage, or his children won’t speak with him, or his friends/family have lost respect for him. She doesn’t have the same shine that she had in the bubble of the affair, things look a little different in the real world. 

Hmm very interesting. Based on what you and other posters are saying, he is definitely placing a lot of the blame on her and playing victim. Being that I want to be with me it is easy to get on board with that. And obviously I am no fan of hers and think she is despicable. Interesting though because his choices are why he lost respect. His choices are why are marriage is broken. And he did exactly what she did so the poor morals and not to be trusted applies to him to if that is the case. Goddamn light bulb  

[Hopefullyjaded9]

11 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

What does he say was the cause of his unhappiness? 

He most recently has said he doesn’t know if he has ever been happy with anything in his life. Some martial complaints post DDay were lack of physical intimacy, not feeling valued or appreciated (yeah buddy neither did I), lack of compatibility (which was never a problem pre affair). 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

10 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He most recently has said he doesn’t know if he has ever been happy with anything in his life. Some martial complaints post DDay were lack of physical intimacy, not feeling valued or appreciated (yeah buddy neither did I), lack of compatibility (which was never a problem pre affair). 

In arguments I have accused him of being a narcissist. Thinking I may have not been so far off. 

[RebeccaR]

11 minutes ago, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

He most recently has said he doesn’t know if he has ever been happy with anything in his life. Some martial complaints post DDay were lack of physical intimacy, not feeling valued or appreciated (yeah buddy neither did I), lack of compatibility (which was never a problem pre affair). 

Did you feel unvalued and unappreciated even before the affair? It seems you were happy in your marriage before that. If you had all these problems (including mismatched sex drives), those need to be addressed in addition to the betrayal. 

[Hopefullyjaded9]

4 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Did you feel unvalued and unappreciated even before the affair? It seems you were happy in your marriage before that. If you had all these problems (including mismatched sex drives), those need to be addressed in addition to the betrayal. 

I didn’t feel undervalued in a way that was an issue for me. I mean more like all of the thankless things we do as a spouse and mother that you don’t even think anyone notices. I do not think he unappreciated me overall. The mismatched sex drives is one of the major things we are tackling with our MC. He wants it all the time. I do not and even more now after the affair. Right away I wanted to be with him physically but that was only the first few weeks after discovery. 

[stillafool]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:35 AM, Hopefullyjaded9 said:

Commitment is huge for me but I am also a very independent person in many ways.

Are you now working?  Being financially independent is the best way to claim your independence.  Your girls are in school, right?