Spouse refuses to admit to past infidelities

[Ruminator1961]

Here's the thing; my H and I have been married for 38 years, but honestly, through most of those years, there have been several instances where I felt very strongly that he has cheated on me, which I'll explain further below. There have also been things that he has said and done that have left me truly feeling that he has been discussing our relationship with another woman or women. I won't go into specifics unless I absolutely have to, but long story short, there have been several times in the early years of our marriage, when our children were very young, when my husband would go to the bar with friends after work on a Friday night without ever stopping home, even though the bar was only a few blocks from home, and sometimes he wouldn't get home until 4 or 5 the following morning. Bar closed at 2:00 a.m. and he never had a valid reason why he was out so late, and when I asked him about it, he would fly off the handle and start throwing things around, pretty much telling me to mind my own business.  There were times when we would be out someplace, and he would literally "disappear" for several hours and just leave me there, sometimes in a strange city.  When confronted about his disappearance and where he was and with whom, he insisted, and still does, that he couldn't remember where he was or what he did.  I didn't believe that then, and still, after many years, I still don't believe him. He has literally left me alone, taken my cell phone with him, so I had no way of contacting him or even calling for a cab or whatever, to get me to our hotel or anything, he just disappeared for several hours with no recollection of where or with whom.  I also found some evidence on his laptop years ago that he had been chatting with or visiting another woman online many times over one summer, and then even when I confronted him with the evidence in black and white (I had printed out the entries and showed them to him), he continued to deny that it was even him and that it must have been someone hacked into his computer and/or the entries weren't actually conversations, they were just instances where someone had sent him some kind of spam.  However, that's not true because the first entry clearly indicated that he had INVITED this other woman to chat with him, so how can that be spam from someone else? He covets his cell phone as though it is worth gold to him, has it passworded all the time, even though I've asked him not to password it, he continues to do so, claiming it has to be passworded for security reasons while he;s at work, which I can believe, but why not tell me what the password is? He also refuses to left me even touch his phone and if I pick it up, he snatches it out of my hand immediately.  Every time he places his phone down, it is always with the screen facing down so it can't be seen.  Just very shady behavior for a husband to have around his wife, especially when she has told him how uncomfortable and unhealthy it is for our relationship for him to behave it that way, he still continues.  I have also witnessed very bizarre changes in his behavior at various times over the years, and when those changes happen, I inevitably get sick to my stomach with the strong intuition/feeling that he is seeing another woman, he would not come right home after work, would be very angry with me for no reason, avoided looking or talkign to me, and would be sure to place a pillow between us when we went to bed, a clear message to me that I was not to touch him.  I am desparate to know the truth about where he went when he disappeared so many times, but have no idea if it's even possible, since he refuses to be honest with me and turns it around to say that I'm the one with the trust issues, etc., which I admit, yes, I do have trust issues, but those issues exist because of the things he has done over the years.  I manage to put these things out of my mind most of the time, but sometimes, like today, they just rear their ugly head and I start worrying about it again.  I mean, obviously I'd prefer not to ever think of them again, but to my knowledge, there is no way to just turn your brain off or stop unwanted, distressing thoughts,.... is there?  If so, I would genuinely love to know how to do that, but in the alternative, if anyone out there has experienced anything like this, I would greatly appreciate some advice.  Thanx for listening. 

[S2B]

Cheaters don’t admit unless you catch them in the act.

why have you stayed 38 years if you don’t trust him? 

[OurLoveTurnsToRust]

Well, there are things you can do, like setting up voice activated recorder in his car, put an Apple tag under his seat, hire a PI etc. to find out for sure what he's up to.

The point being, you seem to have lost all trust for your husband and he simply may be gaslighting you about the truth, to make you seem like the crazy one.  If you have no trust, you may want to consider the steps about to obtain concrete proof once and for all.  BUT, if you take these steps, your relationship will likely be changed forever.

Perhaps you just want to remain blissfully ignorant, continue to play this "game" for another 4 decades?  I just don't understand how you've had this feeling all these years and never tried to find proof, or maybe you don't want to.  That's ok, some people don't REALLY want to know, it's better that way in some respects.  Keep the dirty rock unturned, would rather look at the blue sky and green grass around it instead.

Edited March 27, 2023 by OurLoveTurnsToRust

[S2B]

What would you do IF you had solid evidence?

[stillafool]

From what you've described above you do have solid evidence that he has cheated on you more than once.  Not just that but doesn't seem to respect you in the least.  Why haven't you divorced him?

[Ruminator1961]

5 minutes ago, S2B said:

What would you do IF you had solid evidence?

That is something I have thought about extensively over the years: what WOULD I do if I had positive proof?  Without a doubt I would leave.  Another reply indicated that maybe I have not leeft already because I prefer to stay blissfully ignorant, however, I am not ignorant, and this is definitely not BLISS.  This has been torture.  There was another comment about him possibly gaslighting me, making me think I am crazy.  That is definitely what has been happening, for so long now, that I had never heard of the term narcissist or gaslighting until I had been experiencing this for several years without any proof and certainly without any admission.  The agony I have experienced could never be described as blissfully ignorant by anyone's definition.  I have left a few times; once, he threatened to kill himself if I didn't come back; another time, he called me and screamed at me on teh phone for two hours insisting that I come back immediately or he was filing for divorce, however, on that particular occasion, he never one even asked where I went or where I was when he called me; it wasn't that he cared about me having left or that he was worried about me, it was only that I wasn't where he wanted me to be and that was unforgiveable to him, and he couldn't stand me not being there for him to scream at to my face, or to just ignore to my face, which ever way the mood struck him.  So yes, I have left, sometimes overnight, sometimes for a day. There was one instance when he flipped out at me literally because he was in bed and when I came into the bedroom, I made "too much noise," so he jumped out of bed, packed a bag and left for several hours, but came back home around 4 in the morning. When you have someone playing mindgames with you and making you feel like you are the crazy one and that you are bringing these thigns on yourself, it whittles away at your self-confidence until  you are no longer even able to make simple decisions on your own.  Oh, and besides these things, he has complete and total control of our finances and won't give me information to get into accounts, I have considered bugging/tracking devices, installing something on his phone, but that's not possible without the passcode and even IF i went ahead and ordered any of these things, he would know immediately because he tracks my spending.  So with all due respond, I'm no blissfully ignorant, nor am I a masochist, or anything else.  All I truly am hoping to get here is some genuine ideas anyone might have as to how I can get him to finally come clean, or to help me be able to stop stressing over these things.  I've even told him to his face several times that if there is someone else he would rather be with than me, I gave him his freedome to leave and be with that person, no obligations to me, because the torture I have endured is much worse than having him just be honest and leave. He refuses to admit that he wants to leave, but I tend to believe there have been times when he has genuinely wanted to leave, but doing so might have made some people look at him as something less than perfect, and he would never allow that to happen.  

[Ruminator1961]

Other times I have left over night and returned very early the next morning, because I didnt' want our kids to wake and me not be there, only to get home and find out that he had left sometime during the night, never telling anyone he was leaving, and leaving our oldest daughter, who was in her late teens at the time, at home with the younger kids.  Another time I left, and took my two oldest children with me and spent the nigiht at some run down hotel where I had to prop a chair up against the door because it felt so unsafe.  So in answer, I have left, many times, but there are always consequences for doing so.  

[S2B]

You must be signing your tax returns yes?

you have an idea what money he makes?

do you work full time? 

[Ruminator1961]

7 minutes ago, stillafool said:

From what you've described above you do have solid evidence that he has cheated on you more than once.  Not just that but doesn't seem to respect you in the least.  Why haven't you divorced him?

Please don't think I haven't considered divorce many, many times and I know what the reaction will be to my next comment, but it is the truth; the ONLY reason I haven't done so is because we have four children together, most of these things happened when they were very young, and I had no place to go.  Unless you've been in a situation where someone wears you down so low that you feel less than a dog, incapable of making a decision or thinking for yourself, you can't understand what it's been likely, truly.  I'm not making excuses for my lack of courage to leave, I'm just being honest.  Each time I've confronted him, he has sworn to me I am wrong, and each time I have not believed him. I just don't want to think about it anymore ever.  We're both older now and maybe it's not something I need to continue to worry about happening again, but that doesn't mean the memories of the pain I've already gone through will just disappear, although, as I've said, that is what I want more than anything.  I just want some peace of mind. I just thought maybe someone on the forum might have experienced something similar and would have some advice for me, that's all.  Thank you, stillafool.

 

[Ruminator1961]

1 minute ago, S2B said:

You must be signing your tax returns yes?

you have an idea what money he makes?

do you work full time? 

I worked full time all my life since I was 17 years old, only took off for six weeks when each of our children was born. I just retired last year, yes I know what he makes, generally, but he just started his own business two years ago, so that fluctuates now.  I went to counseling a few years ago and for the first time ever, I heard the term "financial abuse." I had never heard of that before in my life, but now I know exactly what that is.  

[Ruminator1961]

41 minutes ago, OurLoveTurnsToRust said:

Well, there are things you can do, like setting up voice activated recorder in his car, put an Apple tag under his seat, hire a PI etc. to find out for sure what he's up to.

The point being, you seem to have lost all trust for your husband and he simply may be gaslighting you about the truth, to make you seem like the crazy one.  If you have no trust, you may want to consider the steps about to obtain concrete proof once and for all.  BUT, if you take these steps, your relationship will likely be changed forever.

Perhaps you just want to remain blissfully ignorant, continue to play this "game" for another 4 decades?  I just don't understand how you've had this feeling all these years and never tried to find proof, or maybe you don't want to.  That's ok, some people don't REALLY want to know, it's better that way in some respects.  Keep the dirty rock unturned, would rather look at the blue sky and green grass around it instead.

You say my relationship will likely be changed forever, and I am fully aware of that fact, and have taken that into great consideration as well.  I know that once I go down that path there is no turning back. I also know that dealing with someone like him, who refuses to admit anything whatsoever and instead is fine with watching me twist in the wind year after year, even the prospect of resorting to trackers, etc., can be a bit terrifying if it were discovered by him.  I'm not worried at all about what I might discover about him, all I am looking for is proof so that if I do find it and know that it is irrefutable, and I talk to an attorney, and what I am worried about is his reaction if he found out I was doing these things. I've contacted a PI years ago, but they are just too expensive and as I said, how would I explain to him what I was spending the money on?  Not a practical idea for me.  I do appreciate your insight and advice.  I know this is my problem to figure out, even all these years later, maybe all I really want at this point in my life is the truth from him, just the truth.  

[stillafool]

43 minutes ago, Ruminator1961 said:

All I truly am hoping to get here is some genuine ideas anyone might have as to how I can get him to finally come clean, or to help me be able to stop stressing over these things.  I've even told him to his face several times that if there is someone else he would rather be with than me, I gave him his freedome to leave and be with that person, no obligations to me, because the torture I have endured is much worse than having him just be honest and leave. He refuses to admit that he wants to leave, but I tend to believe there have been times when he has genuinely wanted to leave, but doing so might have made some people look at him as something less than perfect, and he would never allow that to happen

Excuse me but you've given him all the power in your marriage, so you trying to get him to come clean to you over his infidelities is not going to happen.  He knows he can do what he wants, when he wants and you're going to just take it.  He certainly isn't going to leave his home so if you want out you are going to have to leave and file for divorce and get half in the divorce settlement which after 38 years, I'm sure you're entitled to.  You might start by telling him you will handle your own paycheck.

[BaileyB]

You’ve tolerated this kind of behavior for 38 years because… ??

Personally, I wouldn’t need proof of anything. You don’t need proof that your husband has cheated on you to file for divorce. The fact that he stays out all night is proof enough that he is a poor husband - that would be reason enough for me to contact a lawyer. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

41 minutes ago, Ruminator1961 said:

Unless you've been in a situation where someone wears you down so low that you feel less than a dog, incapable of making a decision or thinking for yourself, you can't understand what it's been likely, truly.

And yes I have been in that position with a physically abusive man and I got out.  It can be done.

[Wiseman2]

56 minutes ago, Ruminator1961 said:

.  I went to counseling a few years ago and for the first time ever, I heard the term "financial abuse."

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately it's an abusive relationship. And yes financial abuse is part of that. Along with information control, suicide threats, cheating, disappearing, etc.

Don't waste money on spy equipment. You already know enough to make a decision. Whether he is/was cheating is overshadowed by a pattern of systematic abuse.

Privately and confidentiality consult an attorney for your options in the event of divorce. Discuss hiding money, what the laws are and how to get access or if you need a forensic accountant. Do not tell him or threaten divorce. 

Privately and confidentiality talk to a qualified therapist for clarity and ongoing support. Do not tell him.

Talk to trusted friends and family. Check your credit score.  Check your accounts, talk to your banker. Stop asking him. Check through other means.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Ruminator1961]

1 minute ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately it's an abusive relationship. And yes financial abuse is part of that. Along with information control, suicide threats, cheating, disappearing, etc.

Don't waste money on spy equipment. You already know enough to make a decision. Whether he is was cheating is overshadowed by a pattern of abuse.

Privately and confidentiality consult an attorney for your options in the event of divorce. Discuss hiding money, what the laws are and how to get access or if you need a forensic accountant. Do not tell him or threaten divorce. 

Privately and confidentiality talk to a qualified therapist for clarity and ongoing support. Do not tell him.

Talk to trusted friends and family. Check your credit score.  

 

Thank you Wiseman2, for your objective advice, and for not making me feel like a weak, stupid woman for asking for help.  I have spoken to therapists in the past without telling him, after first asking him to attend with me, which he refused to do, but then he complained about the money being spent on counseling since most will not accept cash payments, it's impossible not to have him find out.  I have also gotten my own credit card recently and intend to open my own bank account as well.  I do some administrative work on the side from home and get paid in cash for that, which I have been keeping hidden from him so I can put it away.  

[MsJayne]

The thing about narcissistic abuse is that the mental/emotional trauma goes on long after the abuse seems to have stopped. I agree with everything Wiseman said, get help, get out, and get what's yours. I wouldn't bother trying to explain to him, or engage in any debate about what's going on, you can't make any headway with a gaslighter. The best way to deal with them is to treat them like they're poisonous, (and they are!), and avoid contact with them outside of what's absolutely necessary. On those occasions stick to the script and don't let him manipulate you into listening to him. The man you've described is vile and deserves to be abandoned. 

[Ruminator1961]

12 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

The thing about narcissistic abuse is that the mental/emotional trauma goes on long after the abuse seems to have stopped. I agree with everything Wiseman said, get help, get out, and get what's yours. I wouldn't bother trying to explain to him, or engage in any debate about what's going on, you can't make any headway with a gaslighter. The best way to deal with them is to treat them like they're poisonous, (and they are!), and avoid contact with them outside of what's absolutely necessary. On those occasions stick to the script and don't let him manipulate you into listening to him. The man you've described is vile and deserves to be abandoned. 

thank you, MsJayne, I am making some preliminary plans to do just that, but I have to admit I still wish there was a magic switch I could flip in my brain when the dark thoughts start decending.  Thank you
 

[S2B]

A narcissist cheater is especially NEVER going to admit to cheating.

I suggest getting out while you can.

he likely wants his wife AND his OW.

 

[JTSW]

He will never come clean so you need to find all that evidence yourself.

You say PI's are expensive, but can you get a trusted friend/acquaintance to follow him and take pics and videos of his antics?

Someone that he doesn't know.

Trackers?

Recorders?

You need to get the evidence as quick as you can.

This has been going on far too long.

He is nasty, abusive, manipulative, disgusting.

It's time karma mauled his ass.

 

[Wiseman2]

14 hours ago, Ruminator1961 said:

. I've contacted a PI years ago, but they are just too expensive and as I said, how would I explain to him what I was spending the money on?  Not a practical idea for me. 

Focus on consulting an attorney so you can get access to the marital assets your entitled to. 

You don't need to prove infidelity for divorce. Also, surveiling a spouse is illegal in many jurisdictions and backfires with charges for invasion of privacy.  With professional advice on how to dissolve the abusive marriage and just get out, you'll resolve your distress much sooner.

Once you file for divorce all assets and financials come under scrutiny for discovery. He can't hide assets any longer. Forget whether he's cheating or not and just get yourself away from the abuse.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Wiseman2

[JTSW]

15 hours ago, Ruminator1961 said:

There were times when we would be out someplace, and he would literally "disappear" for several hours and just leave me there, sometimes in a strange city.  When confronted about his disappearance and where he was and with whom, he insisted, and still does, that he couldn't remember where he was or what he did.  I didn't believe that then, and still, after many years, I still don't believe him. He has literally left me alone, taken my cell phone with him, so I had no way of contacting him or even calling for a cab or whatever, to get me to our hotel or anything, he just disappeared for several hours with no recollection of where or with whom. 

It takes a really special kind of a**h*** to do something like this.

He basically put your life in danger and took away your only resource of help.

Divorce papers would've been served after this.