Are my expectations too high?

[MaxxNY]

Hello everyone. 
A little background info. Me, 45, her 43. We have known each other for few years as we have similar interests in outdoors activities and common friends. About a year ago we started dating. 

Her background: She was in one serious relationship when she was in her 20s and had a child. The guy passed away, and she concentrated on  pursuing her career and raising her daughter and was not dating until about 6-7 years ago. Once she got back on the scene, she described it as being a "kid in a candy store" Lots of casual relationships revolving around sex. 

As we started spending more and more time together, we became exclusive. However in the next few months I had doubts due to  what felt like lack of attachment. She spent a lot of time with me, and never turned me down when it comes to dates, outdoors, or indoors activities we enjoyed together. However, after about 8 months, I never heard her say "I love you" or got that "vibe" when you know a woman is head over heels for you. When I asked her directly about her feelings, it felt like I was asking her to confess a murder. Her explanation afterwards was that she came from a family where her parents were not affectionate. Thinking that maybe relationship was too much for her, I asked if she felt like things moved too fast for her, or if the relationship is what she really wanted, but she confirmed she wanted to be just with me. 

She is very friendly, and pleasant to talk to so she is often approached by men, which I understand. She would often mention how, XYZ stroke up a conversation and would ask her out, but she shot the effort down. I would acknowledge that, sometimes we laugh it off and move on. However, 4 months ago she started a new job. She works remotely and goes into the office twice a week. She would mention new coworkers and lunch outings she went to. One guy from work stood out after several conversations. At first I assumed she drew appropriate boundaries. However, about two weeks ago she would mention that the group lunches turned into a lunch with the guy alone. She would mention personal things about him such a his relationship with a new girl, and him trying to learn a language, or how much he is into fitness. She also mentioned that "he likes her". At that point it was clear that she did not draw the same boundaries with him she would with other men. 

During our last weekend together, I asked her about the lunch outings with the above coworker. She said that it only happened on few occasions when "others" were too busy to join them. I explained to her that I was not comfortable with her lack of boundaries with this man. She knew he liked her, she chose to spend one on one time with him and she let the professional relationship cross over to personal where it was no longer work related. 

Rather than taking that in, she threw a spectrum of arguments ranging from "so am I not supposed to talk to any male collogues" to "Just because we are friends does not mean I will spread my legs" to "we only had 2-3 solo lunches, you are overreacting. 

I listened patiently, then reinforced the fact that her getting personal with a guy she knows likes her is disrespectful to me. She was visibly upset and concluded by saying "I think I just share too much with you"

That threw another red flag implying that she does not intend to stop and will just do things behind my back. I left and did not reach out to her for several days. She finally called me and said she wanted to talk. When we met again, she was less argumentative. Once again, I told her what my boundaries are, and explained that we do not have to be on the same page, but if she wants to make herself available to other men on a  personal level, I do not see this "committed" relationship continuing. I also told her that her last comment made me question her trustworthiness. She justified her arguments by saying that she understands me but that's how "she processes things".(She is generally very argumentized and sometimes has to step back to realize I was right) 

I made it clear that If she wants to be in a committed relationship with me, I expect her to draw clear boundaries with men that try to make things personal. I also made a distinction between physical and emotional affairs and the fact that the latter start much more innocently, so they require those boundaries. She paused for a second almost as if that sunk in. 

She seemed to understand, and agreed not to have personal one one one time with the coworker or other men in the future. However, I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling about this. Please tell me if Im overreacting here, but It feels to me like she is not valuing this relationship and is telling me what I want to hear. My intuition is telling me that between her past, and lack of boundaries she is not the type that values exclusivity, commitment and loyalty. A woman's intuition is like a blood hound's nose. Even if she has not been in a lot of relationships before she would draw strong and concrete boundaries if she wanted to protect what we have. 

After we had that conversation a week ago, I never mentioned it again. However, that uneasy feeling is still there. When she mentioned that she wants to start going to the gym after work, getting suspicious.  Should I give her the benefit of the doubt, and continue to see how things play out?

 

Thank you all advance

 

[basil67]

I don't think your expectations are too high.   However, I do think expressing your boundaries won't change someone's idea about what is right *for them*.  She may well do as you tell her, but do you want a relationship where she's following your rules or do you want a relationship where the other party instinctively shares your morals and ethics?

 

[Wiseman2]

41 minutes ago, MaxxNY said:

 . She was visibly upset and concluded by saying "I think I just share too much with you"

Sorry this is happening. You need to trust her more and not come across as insecure or possessive. Ultimatums won't work either. Step back and reflect how good you're overall relationship is.

She will probably not be as open or forthcoming with you because it upsets you.  Try not to get into a power struggle over it, it could be viewed as controlling.

[MaxxNY]

Ideally, yes. I should not tell a woman how to draw boundaries. In her "past life" she never had to draw emotional boundaries. She spent time with whoever she wanted, whenever she watned, and if it lead to something more, thats what it was. The only marker she paid attention to was physical not emotional intimacy. Perhaps its lack of emotional maturity, perhaps Im just making excuses for her...

[MaxxNY]

Wiseman, thank you. I appreciate your input. I agree that I have no control over her actions, just how I respond to them. However, is me not being comfortable with the fact that she is opening herself up on a personal level to a guy making advances towards her an insecurity? Even if she has no intentions towards this guy now,  all affairs start with a friendship.  Once you build that personal bond with the person, attraction happens naturally.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MaxxNY

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, MaxxNY said:

 However, is me not being comfortable with the fact that she is opening herself up on a personal level to a guy she knows is making advances towards her an insecurity? 

The part about not being loving is a bit more concerning.  Perhaps she's insecure and feels talking about her presumed desirability makes her feel better. While it's important that your boundaries are compatible and clear, unfortunately you can't control what she does. Step back and assess how happy you are with her level of emotional availability.

[Gaeta]

Over all, is this woman what you wished for yourself? Lack of affection, lack of ILY,  ego boosted by male's attention, lack of 'connection', questionnable boundaries. 

You are not expecting too much and it's not because she played the field that she doesn't understand commitment, she was married before. 

I am sorry to say l think she is not 'in love' with you. 

Personally l would not want live without that 'vibe' between my man and l. Why do you continue that relationship at all?

[Maldives]

2 hours ago, MaxxNY said:

Hello everyone. 
A little background info. Me, 45, her 43. We have known each other for few years as we have similar interests in outdoors activities and common friends. About a year ago we started dating. 

Her background: She was in one serious relationship when she was in her 20s and had a child. The guy passed away, and she concentrated on  pursuing her career and raising her daughter and was not dating until about 6-7 years ago. Once she got back on the scene, she described it as being a "kid in a candy store" Lots of casual relationships revolving around sex. 

As we started spending more and more time together, we became exclusive. However in the next few months I had doubts due to  what felt like lack of attachment. She spent a lot of time with me, and never turned me down when it comes to dates, outdoors, or indoors activities we enjoyed together. However, after about 8 months, I never heard her say "I love you" or got that "vibe" when you know a woman is head over heels for you. When I asked her directly about her feelings, it felt like I was asking her to confess a murder. Her explanation afterwards was that she came from a family where her parents were not affectionate. Thinking that maybe relationship was too much for her, I asked if she felt like things moved too fast for her, or if the relationship is what she really wanted, but she confirmed she wanted to be just with me. 

She is very friendly, and pleasant to talk to so she is often approached by men, which I understand. She would often mention how, XYZ stroke up a conversation and would ask her out, but she shot the effort down. I would acknowledge that, sometimes we laugh it off and move on. However, 4 months ago she started a new job. She works remotely and goes into the office twice a week. She would mention new coworkers and lunch outings she went to. One guy from work stood out after several conversations. At first I assumed she drew appropriate boundaries. However, about two weeks ago she would mention that the group lunches turned into a lunch with the guy alone. She would mention personal things about him such a his relationship with a new girl, and him trying to learn a language, or how much he is into fitness. She also mentioned that "he likes her". At that point it was clear that she did not draw the same boundaries with him she would with other men. 

During our last weekend together, I asked her about the lunch outings with the above coworker. She said that it only happened on few occasions when "others" were too busy to join them. I explained to her that I was not comfortable with her lack of boundaries with this man. She knew he liked her, she chose to spend one on one time with him and she let the professional relationship cross over to personal where it was no longer work related. 

Rather than taking that in, she threw a spectrum of arguments ranging from "so am I not supposed to talk to any male collogues" to "Just because we are friends does not mean I will spread my legs" to "we only had 2-3 solo lunches, you are overreacting. 

I listened patiently, then reinforced the fact that her getting personal with a guy she knows likes her is disrespectful to me. She was visibly upset and concluded by saying "I think I just share too much with you"

That threw another red flag implying that she does not intend to stop and will just do things behind my back. I left and did not reach out to her for several days. She finally called me and said she wanted to talk. When we met again, she was less argumentative. Once again, I told her what my boundaries are, and explained that we do not have to be on the same page, but if she wants to make herself available to other men on a  personal level, I do not see this "committed" relationship continuing. I also told her that her last comment made me question her trustworthiness. She justified her arguments by saying that she understands me but that's how "she processes things".(She is generally very argumentized and sometimes has to step back to realize I was right) 

I made it clear that If she wants to be in a committed relationship with me, I expect her to draw clear boundaries with men that try to make things personal. I also made a distinction between physical and emotional affairs and the fact that the latter start much more innocently, so they require those boundaries. She paused for a second almost as if that sunk in. 

She seemed to understand, and agreed not to have personal one one one time with the coworker or other men in the future. However, I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling about this. Please tell me if Im overreacting here, but It feels to me like she is not valuing this relationship and is telling me what I want to hear. My intuition is telling me that between her past, and lack of boundaries she is not the type that values exclusivity, commitment and loyalty. A woman's intuition is like a blood hound's nose. Even if she has not been in a lot of relationships before she would draw strong and concrete boundaries if she wanted to protect what we have. 

After we had that conversation a week ago, I never mentioned it again. However, that uneasy feeling is still there. When she mentioned that she wants to start going to the gym after work, getting suspicious.  Should I give her the benefit of the doubt, and continue to see how things play out?

 

Thank you all advance

 

Yes You do have reasons for concern. your intuition and gut are correct. I think you articulated it well, but that's how things can start sometimes. Innocently. If she's doing that one on one with a guy that she knows likes her your answer is right there. Think about it. You can't control someone . So here you have to ask yourself whether it's worth continuing this. Personally I don't see her behaviour changing. Seems she has a history of it

 

[MaxxNY]

Thank you

[JTSW]

14 hours ago, MaxxNY said:

She would mention personal things about him such a his relationship with a new girl, and him trying to learn a language, or how much he is into fitness.

 

14 hours ago, MaxxNY said:

When she mentioned that she wants to start going to the gym after work, getting suspicious. 

Yeah I'd be worried and suspicious too.

Especially as this guy is into his fitness too.

[stillafool]

Have you told her you're in love with her?

It's a problem that she wants to hang out with a man she knows has feelings for her.  That means she likes his attention whether she admits it or not.  Why did she divorce?

[MaxxNY]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Have you told her you're in love with her?

It's a problem that she wants to hang out with a man she knows has feelings for her.  That means she likes his attention whether she admits it or not.  Why did she divorce?

 

She was never married. She dated the guy in her early 20s, she found out she was pregnant after he was gone.  As far as the new coworker goes. I do not think it went as far as him professing love or having feelings. I think they had few lunches(probably more than the two she admits to), she probably likes the attention and she does not have the boundaries because she never had to. She is either genuinely naïve, or does not value this relationship and wants to have the cake and eat it too. 

I think that as far as she is concerned, we spoke about the whole thing, she agreed not to cross the boundaries and the topic is over. However, I have put a little bit of distance between us. I am not reaching out as much as I used to as I think she took my time and attention for granted. 

We have a camping trip planned for this weekend, Im wondering if I should cancel that as well and tell her things just  dont feel the same, or proceed and see how things play out. 

Its not the other men that Im concerned about, its the fact that she pushed back when I stated I was not comfortable with the situation. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by MaxxNY

[stillafool]

Have you told her you are in love with her?

[MaxxNY]

I told her that "I have feelings for her"

4 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Have you told her you are in love with her?

 

[Gaeta]

You are both in your 40s, been dating a year, seem like a lot of wasted time tip toeing around what is going on between you 2. 

May I ask what keeps you in this relationship? it doesn't sound like it's her love, warmth, understanding &commitment. Something must have kept you a full year in a relationship with a non-affectionate, closed off, semi-committed woman?

[smackie9]

You got your facts...she wants an open relationship emotionally, and this goes against your values. She's held you at arms length with little emotional interaction/depth with you, but she has plenty of it to share with other men. Time to punt her to the curb. 

[MaxxNY]

19 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

You are both in your 40s, been dating a year, seem like a lot of wasted time tip toeing around what is going on between you 2. 

May I ask what keeps you in this relationship? it doesn't sound like it's her love, warmth, understanding &commitment. Something must have kept you a full year in a relationship with a non-affectionate, closed off, semi-committed woman?

We have a lot of things in common, and do enjoy each other  in and outside the bedroom.  As far as dating with intention of building things together, we spoke about building a life together and moving in, but have not put anything on paper since she was starting a new job. 

 

@smackie9 I see your point about her being non committal. What do you mean by your comment about having each others passwords?

[smackie9]

2 minutes ago, MaxxNY said:

We have a lot of things in common, and do enjoy each other  in and outside the bedroom.  As far as dating with intention of building things together, we spoke about building a life together and moving in, but have not put anything on paper since she was starting a new job. 

 

@smackie9 I see your point about her being non committal. What do you mean by your comment about having each others passwords?

that is my signature not comment. I don't believe in sharing PWs and that everyone deserves trust and privacy. A lot of people seem to think that sharing PWs is what you need to do in order to have trust. So far from it. 

 

[Weezy1973]

You can’t impose boundaries on her. If you’re not comfortable with her boundaries, which I agree are not conducive to being in a long term committed relationship, then it’s really just time to end it. You don’t have the same core values. 

[Gaeta]

57 minutes ago, MaxxNY said:

We have a lot of things in common, and do enjoy each other  in and outside the bedroom.  As far as dating with intention of building things together, we spoke about building a life together and moving in, but have not put anything on paper since she was starting a new job. 

Yes, having things in common and enjoying each other's company is also why we make 'friends'. There has to have a 'little something more' no? What about feeling loved, that you matter, respected, connected, You give up on that?

[Alpacalia]

That’s a boundary and dealbreaker. Avoid people with feelings for you or who want to have sex with you. I don't blame her if she didn't know, many people mislead or lie. But once it’s known, they need to remove themselves from the situation.

Even if you trust someone 100%, even if you've known them for YEARS, it does not mean they are not capable of making mistakes or doing things that might upset you and put a strain on your relationship just because you trust them completely.

In describing your concerns, be loving and honest, so she can relate to them. Try and make her see things from your side. If she is unempathetic towards you, then it's time for you to seriously consider what kind of relationship you want and what kind of relationship you are in when it comes to her.

The bottom line is that you are not comfortable with the situation and she needs to be aware of that before you continue to pursue your relationship. If you're serious about having a lasting relationship and don't wanna get hurt, take a look at the amount of honesty, respect, trust and communication between you. You really need all of those to have one.

From my perspective, yes, it does sound concerning. But I'm not here to say silly things like 'she's kanoodling him'. Just deal with whatever comes of it as best as you can.

She hasn't yet said I love you? I don't think you said it either, did you?

Her emotional detachment may stem from the father of her child passing away and not really having taken the time to process it. Sounds like she went straight into avoidance mode instead, and then met you.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, MaxxNY said:

We have a camping trip planned for this weekend, Im wondering if I should cancel 

Go camping, reconnect. It's a good environment to lay the cards on the table. Don't panic or overreact. 

[ShyViolet]

This woman is telling you loud and clear that she doesn't want a serious relationship with you, she views it as more of a casual relationship.  She's not "in love" with you.  Between her emotional unavailability and her clamming up when you tried to ask her about her feelings for you, and her blurred boundaries with this guy, it is clear she has one foot in and one foot out of this relationship.  I definitely don't think she has been cheating on you with this guy, or even coming close to cheating.  It's almost like she's just using the guy as another way to let you know that she is not as into this relationship as you are.  If you are ok with having a casual relationship without full emotional connection, then stay in this relationship.

[Gaeta]

19 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Go camping, reconnect. It's a good environment to lay the cards on the table. Don't panic or overreact. 

They never connected in the first place. 

[Els]

21 hours ago, MaxxNY said:

She is very friendly, and pleasant to talk to so she is often approached by men, which I understand. She would often mention how, XYZ stroke up a conversation and would ask her out, but she shot the effort down. I would acknowledge that, sometimes we laugh it off and move on. However, 4 months ago she started a new job. She works remotely and goes into the office twice a week. She would mention new coworkers and lunch outings she went to. One guy from work stood out after several conversations. At first I assumed she drew appropriate boundaries. However, about two weeks ago she would mention that the group lunches turned into a lunch with the guy alone. She would mention personal things about him such a his relationship with a new girl, and him trying to learn a language, or how much he is into fitness. She also mentioned that "he likes her". At that point it was clear that she did not draw the same boundaries with him she would with other men. 

During our last weekend together, I asked her about the lunch outings with the above coworker. She said that it only happened on few occasions when "others" were too busy to join them. I explained to her that I was not comfortable with her lack of boundaries with this man. She knew he liked her, she chose to spend one on one time with him and she let the professional relationship cross over to personal where it was no longer work related. 

In and of itself, I don't see this as problematic. If she was arranging to meet up 1 on 1 with this man, say for dinner or theatre or dancing, I might see your point. However, work lunches are spontaneous, and they are also, well... work, in my opinion. Even if you discuss things like fitness or languages, this sort of friendliness is part of work. At lunch time, if there are 4 of you and you say "hey, who wants to get lunch?" and B says "I'm up for it", but C and D say "nah, I've got something to do", you cannot turn around and say you aren't going to go with B. EVEN if you suspect that they might be interested in you - as long as they are respectful and aren't actually making you uncomfortable or harassing you, it is in your best interests to stay friendly. It's just going to make things incredibly awkward at work otherwise.

As a woman working in a male-dominated profession, I have had plenty of solo lunches/coffees with male colleagues. It would be literally impossible to be part of a community, network and succeed otherwise. I draw the line at after-work stuff - those are group-only. Frankly, it never even occurred to me that it might be a problem. Fortunately, my husband is completely fine with it, and he has also had coffee/lunch with female colleagues in the past.

That being said, if you sense that she is being emotionally withdrawn, and this has been the case for the entirety of your time together, then I don't see why you would draw this out. You are only 8 months in, the whole point of the early dating process is to figure out whether or not you two are compatible. It sounds like she isn't, so what are you staying for?

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Els