Need words of strength

[SallyJo]

Hello everyone.  I'm ashamed and embarrassed to be here, but here I am.  I will give you a little backstory and try not to make it so very long.  I am a 45 year old divorced woman with a child.  I have been involved with a MM for over six years now.  There is no excuse for my behavior.  I am not a victim.  I knew he was married.  We work together but not in the same immediate area, just for the same company.  It started with him contacting me on Facebook and chatting for hours and hours.  It moved to phone calls and then lunches and time after work.  We were sexually involved but never actually had intercourse until after he had moved out and left his wife.  I know that makes no difference at all--sex is sex, just laying it out there.  I fell very deeply in love with him and he said that he loved me.  He told me lots of things.  Before he left, he asked me to wait on him and told me that he was leaving her. When he moved out, I told him that if he went back to her then things would have to completely end between us.  He went back to her.  He never even told me but I knew that he did.  I did not do what I said that I was going to do.  However, the relationship did not go back to being a sexual or romantic relationship.  For about three years, we just chatted via email and on the phone from time to time.  We would occasionally go out to lunch but there was no touching or kissing or anything like that.  I maintained that he was just my friend now even though I still loved him.  He went from talking about his marriage beforehand to never, ever speaking of his marriage or his wife.  We never spoke about what happened between the two of us.  It was like it had never happened. There were several times that he would try to make sexual comments but I would ignore them and change the subject.  I thought I was establishing some kind of boundaries but I was not because I still felt the same way about him.  

Cut to last summer.  He sent me a message one day that he had something to tell me but he didn't know how to do so.  He then goes on to tell me that about 6 months before, his wife had asked for his permission to sleep with other men, women or couples.  He said that he thought about it and agreed to it but she told him that he was not allowed to do the same.  A few months into it, she decided that he could also sleep with other people.  He decided to ask me if I wanted to meet him for sex because she was "allowing it."  I hit the roof.  I was so hurt and I let everything out that I had been keeping in for years.  I told him that I could no longer be a part of his life at all and I was ending all contact.  I did just that.  I ended all contact between the two of us and we did not speak for months.  He tried emailing me a few times but I never responded.  Then, my father got sick.  He found out about it at work and contacted me.  I made the biggest mistake ever and started talking to him again.  I was scared and overwhelmed and lonely and I broke the no contact I had established.  I hated myself for it.  We have been talking some and then he goes and tells me that he has always loved me and he still wants to be with me.  He told me that we would not be sneaking around anymore because his wife had given him permission to do have sex with other people.  He said that his wife was currently out of state with another man that she was having sex with but it was ok because she didn't get attached to these men.  She could have sex with others without forming any kind of emotional bond with them.  (Yeah right).  I asked him what would happen if we started something up and she told him that he had to stop.  He said that he would have to stop if she told him to.  I just couldn't handle any of it.  I told him that we could not speak again and that we could not be a part of each other's lives.  I cried and cried while talking to him and he just sat there and didn't even really seem to care.  He didn't try to get me to stay or change my mind.  It was kinda just like, "well, bye then."  

I know that is a lot of backstory and it probably doesn't make much sense because it sure as hell doesn't make any sense how I got involved in the first place.  The thing I am having trouble with is dealing with the emotions that I feel.  I feel like I lost something all over again.  I was doing ok.  It took me a while but I finally felt that I had got to a good place when I stopped contacting him.  Now, I opened the door again and now I feel like I can't get over it this time.  It feels more soul crushing than it did the last time.  I think I was so angry the last time that I led with anger and it helped me.  Now, I'm just sad, depressed and lost.  I already suffer from major depression and am under a doctor's care for it.  I feel like I can't even get a handle on it now.  Nothing helps.  Nothing works.  I'm just miserable.  I miss him even though I shouldn't give him another thought.  I think of him and his wife together when I am all by myself.  I don't feel like dating other people because I am too broken and I don't feel like I am good enough for anyone anyway after all I have done.  I just hate myself and I don't know how to feel better.  Thanks for listening to me.

 

 

[SallyJo]

Some additional information since I could no longer edit:

I tried to make this short (and failed) and left out some information.  The MM and his wife do not have any children.  He is 48 and she is 50.  He used to go on and on about how terrible she was and how horrible the relationship was.  He talked about how "abusive" she was to him.  She was just the worst.  Yet, he left her and went back to her.  He went back to an "abusive" woman that he had no children with, that he didn't love as much as he loved me (his words) and he sometimes wished that she would just die in a car crash so that he could be free (also his words several times).  He was so miserable that he had contemplated suicide until I came along.  But, he went back to that instead of staying with me.  He would rather be with a woman that goes off to have sex with other men than be with me, someone who would have devoted themself entirely to him.  I am really the stupidest person on the face of the earth.

[stillafool]

Welcome to LS Sally Jo.  Your story has been told many times here on LS and they all pretty much end the same way.  With the married person returning to their spouse.  I can only imagine how hard it must be to get over him when you already deal with depression.  Yes they lie and tell you what you want to hear to get caught up in the fantasy of being together when all they really want is sex and someone to feed their ego.  That goes for cheating married men and married women.  If they lie to their spouse they have no problem lying to you.  What he told you about his wife having sex with other men may be a lie he used to try to have sex with you. Most cheating MM swear to OW that they are not having sex with their wives only for the OW to find out months, years down the road that they have been having a very active sex life with their wives.   Think about it, if he said I have great sex with my wife, would you want to have sex with him?   It's good you are in therapy; but it is going to be a long road ahead of you to get over him.  First you need to forgive yourself, then block him from contacting you ever again and began the long road to recovery.  A lot of people find that going to Church helps and also a place to meet new people.  

[S2B]

I hope you will stay strong doing no contact moving forward.

he’s not offering you anything genuine.

do counseling - become stronger. Set boundaries and take care of yourself! 
 

stay busy. Join clubs or things you are interested in!

[SallyJo]

Thank you for your words.  I know that getting over him is not going to be quick or immediate.  I really do like the idea of going to church.  I feel that I am so bad that God doesn't even want anything to do with me.  I spent so much time praying that I would get over him and that God would help me remove the feelings that I had for him when I cut contact the first time.  I think it really did help me to get a grip and try to move on.  It just pains me to ask for help again when I backslid and did the exact thing that I asked for forgiveness for by talking to him and feeling the same feelings for him again.  But you are both correct.  I need to take better care of myself.  I need to try to forgive myself and be a better and stronger person.  I've been a single mom for 17 years.  If I can do that, I can grow a backbone and get over him.  

I think that I just keep wallowing in the fact that I feel like I have lost something.  My rational mind tells me that I didn't lose anything at all because like the previous post mentioned, nothing was real that he was offering me.  He used to tell me that he would help me raise my son and he wanted to be a father figure to him since he didn't have a dad.  It's like he picked the things I was most vulnerable about and wanted more than anything and went for that.  I never, ever said to him, "hey, why don't you leave your wife and come help me raise my son."  These were things he would say to me when we were talking late at night.  I didn't make them up.  I didn't imagine them.  I asked him that before we went no contact the last time.  I wanted to know why he would be so cruel to try and involve my son when he knew that I wanted nothing more than a father for him.  There was never an answer to that question.  There never will be one.  

[BaileyB]

Hi Sally, I’m very sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. Welcome to loveshack - lots of support for you here.

A few thoughts - first, I wouldn’t believe a word that he says. You are very caught up in his words - this story he has told you about his “abusive” wife, the woman who told him that she was going to have sex with other men and he was not allowed to do the same, and then she changed her mind… Those are just words - and you have absolutely no idea if they are really true or not. 

As you have learned - married men lie. If his story seems too unrealistic to be true that may well be because it’s not true. 

And if it is true - who wants to invite that kind of drama into their life? Not me.

Unfortunately, you have spent a really long time fantasizing about this man and it’s going to take a long time to let that fantasy go. Don’t let him back in again - it only gets harder, not easier, the more times you get on and off this ride.

He showed you what he thought of you and your relationship when he came to you to ask you to have sex - when his wife gave him permission. Unfortunately, you saw how much he valued you and your relationship when you said no. I would hold that moment, that memory, that feeling in my mind very time I thought of him - that is what would keep me from going back.

Good luck.

Edited April 12, 2023 by BaileyB

[SallyJo]

Thank you BaileyB for the welcome and the kind words.  The story that he is telling me is kind of strange for sure.  I don't know how anyone would be ok with it if it's true.   I also find it kind of hard to believe that a woman that loves you so much and begs you to come back turns around and asks for permission to have sex with other people and then takes off on a vacation with one and tells him all about it.  If it is true, the fact that you would want to stay in such a marriage says a lot about you.  

You are correct, I saw how much he respected me and cared for me a long time ago.  I just chose to ignore it over some silly fantasy that I got caught up in.  I made him and the relationship out to be something that it wasn't and it is going to take me a long time to heal.  It is so nice to hear some support on here because there is no one in my life that I can talk to about this otherwise.  

[BaileyB]

19 minutes ago, SallyJo said:

I saw how much he respected me and cared for me a long time ago.  I just chose to ignore it over some silly fantasy that I got caught up in.  I made him and the relationship out to be something that it wasn't and it is going to take me a long time to heal. 

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I would say that you’ve already done the hard part - you’ve taken the rose coloured glasses off and you have ended it. There is a lot to be proud of right there. 

You will get there, we all lose our way at times and it takes time and patience to get back on the right path. Life is hard - we all make mistakes and we all have regrets. Many wish they could go back and make a different decision about a relationship in their past. You are no different. You know where you are going now - you have learned this lesson the hard way. Be kind to yourself, gather your strength and when you are ready - the right path will reveal itself. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by BaileyB

[JTSW]

Hi Sally, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I can guarantee that his wife is NOT sleeping with other men.

He was just telling you this to get you back into having sex with him.

He is feeding you all the classic MM BS.

His wife is horrible and abusive (classic line)

He's leaving her (classic line). They never leave their wife and he proved as much.

I don't think he ever really left her to begin with.

I can guarantee that he has never been truthful with you, just telling you what you want to hear to get what he wants.

Be strong, keep busy. Go out and enjoy yourself with friends and family.

It will get easier in time.

[OurLoveTurnsToRust]

He's just addiction fueled by guilt when you try and pull away and guilt for your actions in general, you need to forgive yourself to move forward and be free.  Depression/OCD doesn't help either, it enhances the negative feelings and attitudes and continues the obsessive thought cycle.  All the answers are within you, keep working with a good therapist.

[ExpatInItaly]

22 hours ago, SallyJo said:

he sometimes wished that she would just die in a car crash so that he could be free

What. The. HE*L. 

This man is horrid on a whole other level we don't often see here on LS. There is something seriously disturbed about anyone who can say things like this. Rememeber that the next time you find yourself missing him. 

 

[Luna66star]

I am so sorry you are hurting.  My heart goes out to you.  Don't feel bad about yourself.  MM is the Villan by leading you on into believing this will go somewhere.  As you can see, it's a complete dead end.  The story his wife agrees to polygamy sounds like total rubbish.  If she sleeps with other men and he sleeps with other women - why the heck are they even married then?  It makes no sense.

He is an expert BS artist.  Don't believe a word of this poppycock!  He even had the nerve to treat you like a prostitute by asking for sex.  It feels like that doesn't it?  Like you're a piece of meat to be used as a sex doll?

No one on here is going to put you down because it's not at all your fault.

This man is a piece of work!  Please grieve, ask for support and  learn the lesson that these types of MM are looking out for their own needs.

A man should treat you like a precious gem.  Don't accept anything less girl!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SallyJo]

You are spot on Luna!  When you said that he had the nerve to treat me like a prostitute asking for sex, that hit home because I asked him that very same thing!  I told him that I could not just have emotionless sex with him ever and asked him if he was going to at least pay me for the transaction.  It's just amazing that you see it the same way that I did, yet I still keep holding on to my feelings for him like a dummy.  I've been trying to do that a lot.  I've been trying to think of the bad.  I've been pushing the good, happy thoughts and nice things he told me out of my mind and focusing on all the bad stuff like that.  When I really step back and look at the reality instead of looking at it for how I wished it to be, then it makes it easier for me. 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:49 PM, SallyJo said:

 I already suffer from major depression and am under a doctor's care for it. 

Sorry this is happening. It's great you're talking care of yourself and your physical and mental health. Regular follow up is important to review your symptoms and treatment, especially if there are additional stressors and changes. 

Hopefully you have regular supportive therapy to help you unpack and sort out what voids and vulnerabilities led you down this dark road in the first place.  Don't go it alone. Reach out to friends and family and reestablish relationships that might have been weakened by the secrecy, shame and isolation that affairs can create.

Hopefully you have deleted and blocked him and all his people from ALL your social media and messaging apps and erased any traces of this dark period from ALL of your devices.

Try not to think about bad/good times. That will just perpetuate the obsession only shifting it from fantasy love affair to being the victim of a lying creep.

Try to think of your life, your health and happiness, your friends and family and interests separate and unrelated to this dark road/him. Think of this as a freeing experience, a new beginning and a better chance of happiness in the future.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Wiseman2

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Try not to think about bad/good times. That will just perpetuate the obsession only shifting it from fantasy love affair to being the victim of a lying creep.

Yes, because you are not truly a victim here. Your first post Sally was much more realistic - you made some poor decisions that led you to become involved in a relationship with a married man. And, it was not just one bad decision - you continued to stay involved/go back to this relationship for six very long years! You own that - no doubt, he is a creep and a liar but YOU chose this creep and you trusted a man who should never have been trusted. 

I’m not posting to make you feel badly. I’m posting because as tempting as it may be to assume the role of victim, I don’t think that helps you move forward or assists you to learn from this experience such that you never find yourself in this situation again. 

That’s where your focus should be right now - learning the lesson here and building a future that brings you happiness and joy. 

 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

I’m not posting to make you feel badly. I’m posting because as tempting as it may be to assume the role of victim, I don’t think that helps you move forward or assists you to learn from this experience such that you never find yourself in this situation again. 

That’s where your focus should be right now - learning the lesson here and building a future that brings you happiness and joy. 

Exactly.  It's our own decisions that lead us into this type of pain.  Putting the blame where it needs to be helps us learn and not make those decisions again.

[mark clemson]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:09 PM, SallyJo said:

 We were sexually involved but never actually had intercourse until after he had moved out and left his wife. 

  I am really the stupidest person on the face of the earth.

 Actually not at all. That might be your depression/anxiety issues talking?

Clearly he was unhappy enough to give leaving her a try. It's just that it didn't work out for you.

And certainly married people aren't the only one who might lie, not reveal their true intentions, or perhaps simply change their minds.

In reality, the broad outlines of your story could have just as easily happened with a single or divorced man. You give it a shot, but it doesn't quite work out, and he ends up with someone else (or, if divorced, his Ex). This sort of thing happens every day.

In a very real way, the fact that this was an affair has minimal bearing on the story or how it worked out. Could have just as easily been with a single guy or divorcee.

 

On 4/11/2023 at 2:09 PM, SallyJo said:

 He was so miserable that he had contemplated suicide until I came along.  But, he went back to that instead of staying with me.  He would rather be with a woman that goes off to have sex with other men than be with me, someone who would have devoted themself entirely to him. 

It sounds like he might be co-dependent? That would seem to account for this. It's not super uncommon.

While the sex stuff/open marriage is a bit unusual, you should realize that some people like that sort of thing.

It sounds like perhaps after he left, his wife sweetened up enough that he decided life with her was tolerable and so "won him back". With her he has a known quantity AND apparently the option to sleep around (as she is doing). Whereas if he had stayed with you, he'd get a loyal partner, but also naturally have to remain loyal to you in return. Reality is that some people might enjoy the prospect of being able to "swing" etc. He wouldn't have had that option with you.

I think the bottom line is, despite your feelings and now sadness at the breakup, the two of you weren't compatible. If you had been more compatible this might have worked out differently. But (importantly) you really weren't compatible.

The good news is, once you've recuperated (and no doubt that can take some time and perhaps help from your therapist) you'll have the option to seek a better match. He will be in his marriage with all that entails (both good and clearly significant bad as well). Affairs are often a band aid on a bad marriage or significant rough patch, and it does sound like his moving out and starting a relationship/affair with you may have been the kick in the pants they needed to adjust things to be more tolerable (presumably for both of them). It's unfortunate on your end that it went on for six years before resolving in a way that isn't satisfactory for you.

Edited April 14, 2023 by mark clemson

[ExpatInItaly]

19 hours ago, SallyJo said:

When you said that he had the nerve to treat me like a prostitute asking for sex, that hit home because I asked him that very same thing!

This is the same man who wished - more than once, according to you - that his wife would be killed in an accident. 

Why you think a person like this would then treat you with kindness and respect boggles the mind. I would be so creeped out and disturbed by those comments I wouldn't have been able to look at him again, much less continue an affair with him. It says a lot about the sort of man he is, and it's pretty ugly. 

You need to think long and hard about where your standards disappeared to. This man is a special kind of disgusting. 

[basil67]

Re the car accident idea, I kind of understand it:  It's the cowards way out. 

Thirty something years ago, when I wanted to leave my first marriage but lacked the courage for The Conversation, I would imagine what it would be like if he just didn't come home one day....and how I'd be free.   Not that I wished a brutal death on him, let alone verbalised it 😮....it was more about my life being fixed by magic.   But magic isn't a thing (at least, it's not in my belief set) so I had to leave that thinking behind.   Instead of wishing a horrible death (or a sudden disappearance) on someone, the answer really is about finding the courage to make a decision.  

This guy lacks the will and/or courage to make a definitive decision and hangs on to a highly unlikely solution.  He's a morbid dreamer who lacks filters

[ExpatInItaly]

 

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

He's a morbid dreamer who lacks filters

No, I don't agree with this. To me, it suggests something messed-up on a much more significant level than being a dreamer with no filter. 

[SallyJo]

18 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

 

No, I don't agree with this. To me, it suggests something messed-up on a much more significant level than being a dreamer with no filter. 

I was reading another message board the other day and someone else said the exact same thing-that they told their AP that wished that their wife would just die in a car accident.  It kind of ran chills up me when I read that because I didn't think that anyone else would think such a thing but I guess that it's more common than I thought.  He has also said the other thing about their open marriage deal in that he hopes that she will just find someone else and move on so that he can move on.  I do think it is him wanting everything to be fixed easily for him so that he is not the bad guy.  He's not the one that has to make any decisions to do anything so he won't look bad to his family, coworkers, friends, etc.  If she dies in a car accident, then he is the victim.  He would be the mourning husband.  If she falls in love with one of the guys that she is sleeping with and leaves him, then he is the injured party again because his wife left him for someone else.  He has no courage or backbone to take an initiative to do anything.  Obviously his feelings for his wife cannot be that strong or intense if he either wants her to not come home one day or leave him for someone else.  He wants to remain the good guy; the good guy who cannot make a decision and is "forced" to remain in his current situation unless something else happens by some odd chance.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, SallyJo said:

Obviously his feelings for his wife cannot be that strong or intense if he either wants her to not come home one day or leave him for someone else. 

You are assuming that the words he says are his true feelings - and you have no proof that this is actually true. 

There are betrayed spouses on this board who had strong marriages, healthy sex lives - and their spouses still cheated and told their affair partner that they were married to horrible women who wouldn’t have sex with them that they wished would leave so that the MM could pursue his “true” love… ALL LIES. 

It’s a common refrain for a conflict avoidant married man when talking with his affair partner… they all wish their wives would make the decision to leave so that they won’t have to make the hard decision and “be the bad guy…”

And then, when most married men are caught they tend to run home faster than you can shake a tail - pledging their undying love and commitment to their spouse while promising never to contact the other woman again. 

What do you believe? That he will do and say whatever serves his purpose in the moment. Full stop. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:21 PM, SallyJo said:

 It kind of ran chills up me when I read that because I didn't think that anyone else would think such a thing but I guess that it's more common than I thought.

I think there has to be some serious resentment built up for someone to feel this way + perhaps a feeling of being unable/unwilling to leave.

I suspect this sort of thing, like most emotional states, is ultimately transitory. Maybe when he left he felt that way, but clearly if he went back to her he "got over" whatever was bothering him so much that he'd (apparently) feel that.

Generally a person doesn't choose to move back in with someone that they (actually, sincerely) wish would get hit by a car. Doing something like that would presumably be in the realm of sociopaths and so forth.

[SallyJo]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

 

I suspect this sort of thing, like most emotional states, is ultimately transitory. Maybe when he left he felt that way, but clearly if he went back to her he "got over" whatever was bothering him so much that he'd (apparently) feel that.

 

He told me this years ago before he left her and he told me this again, less than 2 weeks ago when we talked last.  So, he's been feeling this way for years and it hasn't changed?  He wishes she would die in a wreck but he stays with her, thinking it.  His exact quote was "if I've thought it once, I've thought it a 1000 times."  

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, SallyJo said:

He wishes she would die in a wreck but he stays with her, thinking it.  His exact quote was "if I've thought it once, I've thought it a 1000 times."  

Imagine if he did leave her to be with you, and he felt unhappy in your relationship (because that’s just the reality of any long term relationship)… Let’s say, he is annoyed with you because you tell him not to leave his wet towels on the bathroom floor, or because you get angry when he goes out with friends after work and doesn’t call to tell you when he will be home, or he doesn’t like the way that you question his spending - 

Lets say that he tells his best friend, or a coworker, or the woman who is showing him attention at that moment that he has thought it a thousand times - he wishes that you would die in a car wreck so that he wouldn’t have to deal with this any more…

How would you feel about that Sally? To know that the man that you have chosen, the man you love, says this about you - if he has thought it once, he has thought it a thousand times…

These are his skills for conflict resolution. He will sit passively while wishing death upon his partner. Assuming, of course, it’s an idle threat. Wishful hoping that the problems in his life will all magically disappear - and he will find happiness. At least, until the next conflict in his next relationship…

As was said above, when you are reminiscing and missing the “good times,” think about that statement - because that is messed up. This is not a man that you want in your life - at least, not me.

Edited April 16, 2023 by BaileyB