No flirting: deal breaker?

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Its the area you need to work on I suppose,

I am thinking of two friendships I have, I had brief relationships with both that ended up evolving into friendships,

flirting can take the form of throwing in random lines usually that manifest as a compliment- the two I mention there - one I used to call her a young Michelle Pfeiffer, the other was " I love that Penelope Cruz look,

they appreciate the compliment and that also open the conversation to talking about movies involving them people I mentioned or indeed any movies,

I think though many ladies appreciate intelligent conversation and I dont imagine you have any problems with that,

just mixing it up a bit -throwing in a bit of banter,

I am very shy actually in reality, but on occasion and especially in one on one encounters, I have found enough probably to come out of my shell and take a chance,try and lighten the mood.

other times -as a shy chap- I have needed help from the woman- my present partner indeed had to work hard to draw me out and get me to loosen up somewhat,

when you go a while without much success it does knock confidence and takes a while to find that spark again.

 I can relate heavily to the bold! 

What has been interesting to me is to see how people are are outgoing tackle this versus people who are not outgoing, maybe  I should not say this but I think introverted people do find the concept of flirting considerably more challenging.

Also perhaps it does matter more in certain situations, its considerably easier if one is not in the group of people, most of the worst experiences I have had attempting to be charming were in the group setting, especially if I was attempting to play leagues above what is actually attainable. Knife to a tank fight best describes it.

Maybe the target audience needs to be carefully considered though I must add I have found  some degree of success in terms of getting very attractive people to have very nice conversations, I think this is mostly because I did not try to flirt with them.

[Weezy1973]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think introverted people do find the concept of flirting considerably more challenging.

I think you might be confusing introversion and social anxiety. Introverts gain energy through being alone and lose energy in group settings. Nothing to do with flirting. And while social anxiety and introversion are probably correlated, social anxiety is a fear of rejection (which you have) and definitely would have an impact on flirting.

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think this is mostly because I did not try to flirt with them.

You don’t have to flirt to get romantic interest. For example, I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder in my mid 30s, and likely had it since my teens. I have never flirted but have had multiple relationships, both long and short through the years. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think you might be confusing introversion and social anxiety. Introverts gain energy through being alone and lose energy in group settings. Nothing to do with flirting. And while social anxiety and introversion are probably correlated, social anxiety is a fear of rejection (which you have) and definitely would have an impact on flirting.

Indeed. I'm quite the introvert and after a big day of socialising, I retire to my room, pull the blinds closed and sleep to try and recover my energy.   Thankfully, I do not suffer social anxiety or fear of rejection, so I was always comfortable flirting.  Probably too comfortable.....😳

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by basil67

[introverted1]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think you might be confusing introversion and social anxiety.

Amen.

I can be quite charming and flirtatious when the mood strikes, but there's a limit to how much socialising I can accommodate in one day.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think you might be confusing introversion and social anxiety. Introverts gain energy through being alone and lose energy in group settings. Nothing to do with flirting. And while social anxiety and introversion are probably correlated, social anxiety is a fear of rejection (which you have) and definitely would have an impact on flirting.

You don’t have to flirt to get romantic interest. For example, I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder in my mid 30s, and likely had it since my teens. I have never flirted but have had multiple relationships, both long and short through the years. 

Well to be honest I have seldom enjoyed socializing unless its in a common interest group. As for rejection, not really because I do not bother trying anymore my objective now is to understand how people flirt with a degree of success and then try cherry pick the ones I think I can do (your list is helpful) and work on those with no real purpose in mind.

I lose energy in group settings, unless I find the conversation stimulating. 

Sure I am sure you do not need to flirt but it seems to be quite helpful if one can do so. I am probably not suited to it simply because sugar coating things is not something I am inclined to do.

The "beautiful" people I find attractive see me as unviable to date so I suspect sometimes the conversation flows a lot better as a result. 

[Alpacalia]

Try to ensure that there is a balance of mystery.

I'm not sure how your interactions online differ from life offline, (in the best possible sense) in that you speak extensively about yourself. It can be beneficial to withhold some information and let the other person piece together your personality and interests. This helps create a sense of intrigue and mystery, and it allows the other person some space to reveal more about themselves.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, introverted1 said:

Amen.

I can be quite charming and flirtatious when the mood strikes, but there's a limit to how much socialising I can accommodate in one day.

Not really no, the two are very different. While its nice to be around people I find interesting its not a real issue if I am not around people at all. My relationship ended in Oct last year, have had no dates since, do not feel terrible about having no dates either (probably because more and more people I find unattractive).

Was I anxious at times, sure I was and as for rejection, sure I will avoid it because I have had enough of it.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Try to ensure that there is a balance of mystery.

I'm not sure how your interactions online differ from life offline, (in the best possible sense) in that you speak extensively about yourself. It can be beneficial to withhold some information and let the other person piece together your personality and interests. This helps create a sense of intrigue and mystery, and it allows the other person some space to reveal more about themselves.

I never speak about myself because there is nothing really to speak about, people are not all that interested, "boring" describes me pretty well. There is no real mystery about me at all.

My conversation tactic is to find something the other person likes talking about and then work off that topic, try make them feel good but this is tiring in the extreme.

[Alpacalia]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My conversation tactic is to find something the other person likes talking about and then work off that topic, try make them feel good but this is tiring in the extreme.

Yes, tiring. Mentally draining to constantly think of topics to discuss is also a downside.

I'm glad that you're open to different ways of getting to know someone. In the end, it's all about being comfortable with each other and having a good time. Sure, flirting expresses interest and creates a connection between two people. Without that, you might have conversations that feel forced and awkward.

Hey, you might discover that you have an enjoyable time without flirting. Moments of silence can be very sensual too.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Was I anxious at times, sure I was and as for rejection, sure I will avoid it because I have had enough of it.

Avoidance of situations where you might get rejected is literally the number one defense mechanism for social anxiety. Another one is having a rich elaborate fantasy life where of course you can’t get rejected. One of the reasons you’ve said you’re not interested in being friends with women that you don’t find attractive is because you want the fantasy. it’s very likely that if you see a therapist that specializes in CBT, they could properly diagnose you and give you some practical strategies that you can use to move your life forward. 

[mark clemson]

Don't flirt for work purposes except at the very lightest level IMO, as this might lead to problems. Anything that's innuendo could backfire. So avoid remarks that could be misinterpreted as "more" than fun conversation at most if the person is destined to remain a work partner.

I agree about @NuevoYorko's point about touching. That is for people with strong social skills and should be limited/curtailed, particularly in a work environment. As a guy, the safest thing is to wait for a woman to touch you AND be quite limited about reciprocating if you do it at all. In other social environments, such as a pickup bar or what have you, that might be different.

All that said, I think conversation "escalates" into flirting when the other person warms up to you and starts to show more interest. I.e., you might be a potential partner.

That can happen quickly or slowly. IMO the statistical tendency is that the more attractive the person and the better their conversational/social skills, the sooner that happens. But every particular situation is different and even two very attractive people might not connect overly well.

It's important to realize flirting, even genuine showing of interest, doesn't necessarily amount to much. I can't count the number of women who seemed perfectly happy to have fun, friendly, and completely unnecessary conversations with me with big smiles on their faces. Since I like to be social it's literally in the multiple hundreds. And in some cases led to direct suggestive statements on their part, and to or flings, ONSs, and relationships when I was younger. But, while it's been fun, I've only had so many GFs and sexual encounters in life, and I tend to develop a relationship fairly quickly. So the vast majority of these have amounted to nothing but enjoyable socializing.

Edited May 9, 2023 by mark clemson

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Avoidance of situations where you might get rejected is literally the number one defense mechanism for social anxiety. Another one is having a rich elaborate fantasy life where of course you can’t get rejected. One of the reasons you’ve said you’re not interested in being friends with women that you don’t find attractive is because you want the fantasy. it’s very likely that if you see a therapist that specializes in CBT, they could properly diagnose you and give you some practical strategies that you can use to move your life forward. 

Oddly enough I know enough people who have the sort of life I would like but ultimately what we would like is not always what we get. Your list gives me something I can work with each day in normal situations, I've actually printed it. 

I do think being friendly is the bare minimum most people expect but even that is very subjective, most people probably think I am very unfriendly but if I had to consider what people thought of me, I would not do much each day. 

Another good example of what I mean was an interaction I had a while back, the idea was to try actually set me up on a date, I went there with what I thought was my A game but it turned into a total disaster as I connected with none of these people despite actually trying, the problem was a lack of any common ground and eventually I ran out of small talk, more attractive guys arrived with superior flirting ability and the evening was pretty much over for me. I can do everything to try to be friendly, I can really try step out of my shell and yet there is not once been not one instance where its worked which I put down to lack of flirting, charm, good looks and financial power. 

Being able to go there with some flirty skill may have helped a bit, how much I do not know because being the good friendly guy certainly did not work very well, it DOES work very well if one wants to be a spare part and be used. What I have come to realise, it does matter how helpful, how friendly, how much I try, those people will never look at me as a dating option. 

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Don't flirt for work purposes except at the very lightest level IMO, as this might lead to problems. Anything that's innuendo could backfire. So avoid remarks that could be misinterpreted as "more" than fun conversation at most if the person is destined to remain a work partner.

I agree about @NuevoYorko's point about touching. That is for people with strong social skills and should be limited/curtailed, particularly in a work environment. As a guy, the safest thing is to wait for a woman to touch you AND be quite limited about reciprocating if you do it at all. In other social environments, such as a pickup bar or what have you, that might be different.

All that said, I think conversation "escalates" into flirting when the other person warms up to you and starts to show more interest. I.e., you might be a potential partner.

That can happen quickly or slowly. IMO the statistical tendency is that the more attractive the person and the better their conversational/social skills, the sooner that happens. But every particular situation is different and even two very attractive people might not connect overly well.

It's important to realize flirting, even genuine showing of interest, doesn't necessarily amount to much. I can't count the number of women who seemed perfectly happy to have fun, friendly, and completely unnecessary conversations with me with big smiles on their faces. Since I like to be social it's literally in the multiple hundreds. And in some cases led to direct suggestive statements on their part, and to or flings, ONSs, and relationships when I was younger. But, while it's been fun, I've only had so many GFs and sexual encounters in life, and I tend to develop a relationship fairly quickly. So the vast majority of these have amounted to nothing but enjoyable socializing.

I agree its important to try something positive out if it but more often than not I find myself totally out of step charm wise with everyone else, I suppose being serious rather than fun does not help my flirting ability, what I have noticed is people who flirt well also make the person laugh, I categorically cannot make people laugh, its near impossible.

Touching, I'd never do that, that crosses a line which I do not think is appropriate in the work environment and should be treated with caution in general.

Agree with the bold and as I am always the ugliest guy around it does not help my cause! Though I did once thing being more intelligent could perhaps make up for that, turns out that does not work either! 

Maybe the other problem the way I see is flirting needs to be mutual, one sided attention will never work. I do not share all the history here but I often feel truly stupid for how poorly I have handled certain situations and reading and watching videos its become clear that had I been able to flirt and connect properly the history would have actually had some positive. 

Look its possible to enjoy a simple interaction, there is a client I find attractive and there is a slight bit of banter every so often, I mess it up more than I get it right (awkwardness is never far away) but every so often I do sort of get it right which does feel good but even when I do not the attention is nice. Again though, I take my business partner there and she becomes a completely different person with him, the banter increases and its clear there is attraction where I have none. His banter is superb from minute one and I just get totally overshadowed and I can see her body language changes with him versus me. So I basically need to take the slices of good from my own interactions in isolation.

The list is interesting because I go through it and think how much of that I apply in day to day life.

Actually all I really want to do is have more good banter and for that I need to find some more charisma and charm and try be less boring I suppose.