I am falling for my married dentist - please help!

[Craig]

nobody is talking about sugar. support without judgment is what i was talking about. i don't know how many people like to listen to those who judge them harshly. but in most of what you are all saying you are correct, even outcast, bless her cotton socks, and i am incorrect.

 

In hindsight I could have chosen more appropriate words than "sugar coated" and apologize.

 

Support without apparent judgment can be a challenge. Sometimes no matter what we do, some people might see our intended support to be judgmental. Other times it is a communication glitch due to factors not known at the time. For example regional differences in communication (even in the English language) can be quite large. What passes for polite conversation in one region might be considered offensive in another.

 

I disagree that you are incorrect. I would agree if you said you had a different opinion, or a different point of view or that your experience leads you to believe otherwise. In which case I'd probably make attempts to understand.

[Outcast]

In which case I'd probably make attempts to understand.

 

You mean 'empathize'?

[Craig]

You mean 'empathize'?

Someone should start a thread on "understand or empathize: is there a difference (opinions?)"

[Outcast]

right back atcha!

 

BTW thanks to you and the rest of the folks who have shown you understand 'where I'm coming from' ( ) in all this. Helps to know not everyone thinks I'm being a wretch.

[Craig]

right back atcha!

 

BTW thanks to you and the rest of the folks who have shown you understand 'where I'm coming from' ( ) in all this. Helps to know not everyone thinks I'm being a wretch.

My goodness, no! Misunderstood, misinterpreted and misquoted at times but not a wretch, ever.

[Outcast]

Misunderstood, misinterpreted and misquoted

 

Yeah. That'd be me Or maybe I shouldn't>> . Maybe I should milk this for a little sympathy? Or understanding. Or empathy?

[tinktronik]

Yeah. That'd be me Or maybe I shouldn't>> . Maybe I should milk this for a little sympathy? Or understanding. Or empathy?

 

def. the empathy

[michellebelle]

I never thought this possible but i am actually attracted to a married man.

 

The attraction is becoming more and more intense. I am trying to fight the feeling but I just cant. I have more or less decided that I am going to pursue this man as I feel that he is also attracted to me in the same way.

 

He has made any moves on me as yet, and I havent made any moves on him, I am worried about doing anything to him that may take him out of his comfort zone.

 

We're very comfortable talking and I dont want to make things uneasy between us.

 

He is my Dentist and we have only known each other for a few months.

 

He has done a lot of dental work for me in the last few months and also has been very helpful with my health in general, as I am not well, and he has gone out of his way to help me in anyway he can.

 

Last time I went in to have my teeth done, he didnt do the filling very well, and i didnt have a good bite in my mouth, I called to let him know and he told me to come in on Saturday and he would fix it for me.

 

Then he called me and cancelled it and asked if i could come in Sunday instead, bearing in mind the clinic doesnt operate on Sundays, but he was going to "open up" just for me:)

 

When I made a comment of "U came into work on a Sunday monring just for me"

And he responded with "U r a very special patient, I wouldnt do this for anyone else"

 

I did go on Sunday morning as he asked, there was a lot of attraction, loads of smiling and eye contact, he took about 10 mins correcting the error he had made with the filling.

But all up we spent an hour together - we chatted about lots of things, where he has travelled, how my health is holding up etc

 

On a Sunday morning being at work when you're not meant to, wouldn't you be in a hurry to get home or out of work as soon as possible, not spending an extra 50 mins or so chatting to a patient.

 

It was relaxed, and i thanked him very much for helping me as much as he did, and i leaned over to hug him, opening my arms before hugging him, so he knew why I was heading for him and he anticipated the hug with opening his arms to welcome me as well.

 

We hugged for a long time, seemed like forever, it was a really tight hug, i couldn't look him in the eye after that, I grabbed my handbag and headed for the door.

 

He always calls on my mobile to see how I am and if I am feeling better. He always tries to make conversation with me and I usually cut him off and say "thanks for your call i better let u go"

 

I know he is married as he wears a wedding band:(

 

I cant fight this attraction - what am i meant to do?

How do i make subtle moves without damaging the nice "friendship" we already have.

 

I was thinking of asking him to my place for Xmas drinks and see how he repsonds. If he comes over he is interested right?

I am a fair bit younger than him as well. I am guessing at least 15 years younger but could be a bit more.

 

Please dont critisize me, I am confused and need advice, i dont need to be verbally bashed by anyone.

 

Thanks for your input in advance.

 

I know EXACTLY how youre feeling,I'm in the same boat.

[newbby]

Please dont critisize me, I am confused and need advice, i dont need to be verbally bashed by anyone.

 

well michellebelle,

you seem to know what you need. since we are already discussing this, what kind of advice do you need?

[newbby]

In hindsight I could have chosen more appropriate words than "sugar coated" and apologize.

 

Support without apparent judgment can be a challenge. Sometimes no matter what we do, some people might see our intended support to be judgmental. Other times it is a communication glitch due to factors not known at the time. For example regional differences in communication (even in the English language) can be quite large. What passes for polite conversation in one region might be considered offensive in another.

 

I disagree that you are incorrect. I would agree if you said you had a different opinion, or a different point of view or that your experience leads you to believe otherwise. In which case I'd probably make attempts to understand.

 

yes support without judgement is indeed a challenge, but giving advice should be a challenge. it is also something to learn. although nobody here is a professional and people coming here are not expecting to get professional help, they are nonetheless in some sort of turmoil, and so discussing ways of giving advice is only a matter of being responsible. i am not saying i know the best way, i dont, i am trying to learn through these discussions.

i am not sure that harsh advice is always helpful. sometimes the advice can be so harsh it only has the effect of sending the reciever into more denial. generally people seeking advice are not feeling confident, which is in part why they are in that particular life situation that requires advice (ie something they have a choice in), and so knocking the confidence further still in judgemental advice would (clearly it seems to me) have the reverse of the desired effect.

maybe i am taking the whole thing too seriously, but, although this is a discussion board, there are still real people with real problems coming here and in many cases, it is their therapy of choice.

my purpose was not to criticise the advice people are giving but to explore and discuss what is helpful and what is not. my approach may have been a bit of a verbal assualt, and i apologise.

[michellebelle]

well michellebelle,

you seem to know what you need. since we are already discussing this, what kind of advice do you need?

I didnt post what you quoted.I just said that I understood what she was going through.My post is "I'm married and in love...with someone else."if someone could reply I would be gratefull.Thankyou.

[Sami_D]

You are in a vehicle travelling 250 mph towards a brick wall and I'm trying to wave you away. I can step away any time - I'm fine. It's you who's keeping your foot on the accelerator. You and mandy are determined not to be deterred. Fine. But I'll be in the lineup to 'I told you so' because people who ignore warnings drive me bugs.

 

Outcast, I've been in this situation almost 2 years (though the majority of that has been a LD EA). It's really too late for warnings of what might happen, or how I'm going to feel when it does. I'm already living it. In fact, if there's any reason for my being on this thread it's that I can be a warning to mandy (if such warnings worked).

[Sami_D]

From what I've seen on the forum, some feel guilty, some don't. I just can't see why Outcast's advice would have been perceived as an attack. To me, she was just saying something along the lines of "read through these threads and see the problems that seem to arise time and time again in these situations - and take some warning from them."

 

I agree. I didn't see Outcast's post as an attack. I saw it as giving out general advice about what usually happens in affairs, without considering that it wasn't applicable to me. The reason I got annoyed with it is that Outcast snipped my response to someone else to make a point that wasn't actually applicable to my case.

 

I KNOW I'm in a stupid situation. I'm trying to deal with it in the best way I can. Telling me I'm 'heading for disaster' and am too blind to see what's happening to me isn't helpful. I'm one of the ones who is trying to see as well as I can. So please don't tar us all with the same brush.

[newbby]

I didnt post what you quoted.I just said that I understood what she was going through.My post is "I'm married and in love...with someone else."if someone could reply I would be gratefull.Thankyou.

 

are you looking for others in your situation?

are you otherwise happy with your marriage?

is the om married?

are you wondering whether the om has real feelings for you?

what are you looking for?

[Outcast]

am not sure that harsh advice is always helpful. sometimes the advice can be so harsh it only has the effect of sending the reciever into more denial. generally people seeking advice are not feeling confident, which is in part why they are in that particular life situation that requires advice

 

And others aren't. And still others get shocked out of denial. Which is the beauty of a forum. Poster gets a variety of types of advice; with luck, one will get through.

 

am too blind to see what's happening to me

 

Once again, not the point. In your case the point is stop hoping for something that will never happen. You appear to still think that he will divorce and end up with you and that is highly unlikely. Not sure what the explanation is for why you're giving it another year. I'm saying you're refusing to believe that you'll end up this way. If you did believe it, you'd ditch him rather than giving it another year.

[Sami_D]

How different is AussieMandys situation from Samis really ? Or any other affair on here ? Woman gets involved with married man , man hides this from his family , continues to do so .....you finish this story . Sami , Ive been following your story for a while and have not added to it , but Ive watched it.It sounds as if you love your MM.Im sorry if your hurt , but your a big girl and can and will make your own descisions in this matter. Some OW are simply more likable in print than others.Does this mean the situation that has played over and over again will have a different outcome? Not likely , but possibly. Sometimes affairs do end differently.My grandpa married his affair ( but only after his wife had died , and his affair lasted 30 years before it became something else) so yeah it happens.

Just b/c Sami is likeable , does this mean everyone should only say what she wants to hear ? Someone who would not tell her to do something good for herself would not have her best interest in heart and is NOT her friend.So Outcast continues to tell her "girl .....take your hands from the front of your face so you can SEE. You dident see last time make sure your looking this time." This is a good friend.

 

Thanks tinktronik... Never thought of myself as likable in print before...

 

Now, what you say about only telling me what I want to hear... you're completely right ~ that is the LAST thing I want or need. I want to make decisions for myself, but I DO want people's comments and, and if they're simply saying things I want to hear... what use is that..?

 

(On the other hand, there is a difference between insiteful, thoughtful comments based on particular situations... and generic 'it will all go bad' stuff which is applied willy-nilly whenever an OW starts typing.)

 

I don't know how different my situation is than mandy's. I can give a list of differences in how they began, and how they're looking now, in the types of people our MM are, and how they behave. But actually, perhaps those differences aren't very relevant to the final outcome, as you say.

[Sami_D]

Where in the definition of empathy does it say that being empathetic must not create discomfort?

 

Isn't empathy about an ability to feel for the other person? I don't think it has anything to do with what you DO about that feeling.

[Sami_D]

i am not sure that harsh advice is always helpful. sometimes the advice can be so harsh it only has the effect of sending the reciever into more denial.

 

I'd add to that that sometimes the advice is so generic that it makes the person think that no-one is listening, and they give up asking. That's what happened to me. The only reason I'm posting on this thread (sorry mandy) is that a couple of people called me out on my reasons for posting given my situation.

 

Now of course most affairs don't end with the people involved living happily ever after. So yes, there's a reason for the negativity on this board. But then most relationships/dating in general don't end up that way either. So let's get some perspective.

[Outcast]

Now of course most affairs don't end with the people involved living happily ever after. So yes, there's a reason for the negativity on this board. But then most relationships/dating in general don't end up that way either. So let's get some perspective.

 

Wow. That smells suspiciously like a rationalization..

[Sami_D]

Once again, not the point. In your case the point is stop hoping for something that will never happen. You appear to still think that he will divorce and end up with you and that is highly unlikely. Not sure what the explanation is for why you're giving it another year. I'm saying you're refusing to believe that you'll end up this way. If you did believe it, you'd ditch him rather than giving it another year.

 

Outcast, you're doing exactly the same thing again... telling me about how I feel about my situation, what I believe, and what I think/hope will be the outcome.

 

NONE of the things you've written here are in the slightest bit true to me.

 

I'm not hoping. I don't think he WILL divorce. Even if he does divorce, I have no idea (who would at this stage?) that we'll be compatible for a long-term R. And I have no idea (as I expressed in the post you first responded to) HOW long I'm likely to want to remain in this, or if I'm just going to get really brassed off come the New Year, OR if I'll find myself settling into it and it going on for decades (though that one is unlikely lol).

 

I'm not refusing to believe I'll 'end up' like every other OW. In fact, most of my discussions of this with MM are ME telling HIM what the statistics are, and how fearful I am about this dragging on until we both hate/mistrust (or whatever) each other, and how it's just not tenable for a dozen reasons.

[Sami_D]

Wow. That smells suspiciously like a rationalization..

 

Rationalisation of what?

[lindya]

Isn't empathy about an ability to feel for the other person? I don't think it has anything to do with what you DO about that feeling.

 

Going off course again (sorry) but I tend to think of empathy as the essence of "human-ness". The belief that other people matter.

 

When someone's been totally objectified by a traumatic experience or...felt dehumanised by another person who couldn't or wouldn't relate to them as an intelligent, sentient human being, other people's empathy is what helps to counteract the "dehumanisation" process.

 

I think that if people feel they're getting the message that "your situation is no different to any other OW's" then it's understandable that they'll feel lumped into a category by that.

 

The complicating factor is, of course, that all those other OW were also human beings, fuelled by the hope and/or belief that their situation did not conform to some stereotype of a marital affair - eg "married man suffering mid-life crisis hopes to regain a sense of hope, youth and vigour through an extra-marital affair".

 

Of course nobody would want to see their situation in those terms. There are so many other factors involved. Genuine affection and emotional connection, love, physical and intellectual fulfilment.

 

It's a cruel thing to deny someone all those very positive and life affirming sensations...and I don't think anyone on the board would argue that an affair can produce all those sensations for the parties involved.

 

However, the all these fantastic sensations also seem, from what I've read in these posts, to be endlessly coupled with insecurity, lows, despair and loneliness. The special inner self has been given to someone who has placed it into a box marked "affair" alongside boxes marked wife, family, work and hobbies. People who categorise in that way (and many men have admitted on LS that they tend to do this) can be extremely focused on the subject at hand at the relevant time. That can give an air of devotion and dedication.

 

It can feel extremely dehumanising to discover that you've been categorised in that way by someone you love. I think most men will take great pains to avoid letting their lovers know that they compartmentalise them in that way. Until, that is, the relationship is over.

 

So these forums are, in many ways, a constant battle between the seductive influence of the MM who has an interest in keeping the affair going (sex, excitement, an upper hand in the balance of power between him and his wife...not to mention him and the OW) and the plea for common sense from posters who know that there are thousands of kind, intelligent, sentient women wasting their lives waiting for men who can wax lyrical when the need arises, but who have no real intention of ever committing to them

[newbby]

i think lindya raises some very good points here sami.

from the outside the fundamentals of the situation look very obvious. look at mandy as an example. this is why i was raising the point that i think ow/exow are being harsh. from the outside it is obvious. yet from where she is standing, it clearly is not, or she would not even be entertaining the idea.

so looking at all these other situations and feeling out your own, they CAN seem very different. on the other hand some things do appear to be very different. your relationship sounds as though it is loving. thats the thing though, my understanding, based both on my experience and my observations and readings on human nature, is that even if the situations begin differently, they can reach the same place very easily, because of the circumstances.

i believe also that i could have been strategic in my relationship with my xmm, and probably had an honest relationship with him, even if only a temporary one. i had my own issues which prevented me from doing so.

the longer the relationship continues with you allowing him to be a cakeman, the less likely your relationship is to survive. you were given this advice long ago though sami.

[Sami_D]

Good post, lindya, and very pertinent to what goes on on these boards.

 

I just wanted to comment on this bit below. It's not meant as an argument against what you wrote, but just a further comment on this, and affairs in general:

 

 

I think that if people feel they're getting the message that "your situation is no different to any other OW's" then it's understandable that they'll feel lumped into a category by that.

 

The complicating factor is, of course, that all those other OW were also human beings, fuelled by the hope and/or belief that their situation did not conform to some stereotype of a marital affair - eg "married man suffering mid-life crisis hopes to regain a sense of hope, youth and vigour through an extra-marital affair".

 

Of course nobody would want to see their situation in those terms.

 

Actually, this is more or less how I see my situation.

 

He and I, both middle aged (if not exactly in crisis), do fulfil a lot of the stereotypes of people falling into affairs. How could it be otherwise..? People have affairs because of particular circumstances, as you point out. Ours is one such, mandy's (older, professional man: much younger woman) is another. Other current threads on the board show another type of affair-waiting-to-happen... people at work who find themselves sharing conversational interests and end up in each other's pants. No-one is denying that there are very definite patterns to these Rs. Aren't there to all relationships?

 

Your post, however, suggests that while we're all (and like to see ourselves as) individuals, actually, this is somehow negated by the fact that we're just conforming to these patterns. I see it the other way: There are these patterns, but within that, we are all individuals.

 

As individuals we differ in whether we value romantic love above social position, whether we're financially or emotionally independent, whether we (the OW or MM) have our own (young, or grown) children, whether the OW is also M or has been M, our relative ages and expectations from life, our abilities to make rational decisions in a crisis, our relationship histories to date, whether we're pessimists or optimists about Rs and life in general, whether we're inveterate liars or basically honest trustworthy people, whether we know other people (in our lives) in the same situation, what our childhoods were like and what our views of M are.

 

All these factors will make a difference to how we deal with the Affairs. Whether enjoy the relationship for what it is, whether we push for results or let it drag on, whether we lie to each other or our spouses, whether we walk away sooner or later, whether we phone the W, or jump off a bridge in despair, or get pregnant by MM, or decide to be a kept woman or a HOW, or spend miserable, drunken Christmases alone.

 

These differences mean that the affairs will progress at different rates, with different feelings for the OW, and eventually, with different outcomes. Sometimes the MM breaks it off, sometimes the OW does. Sometimes it's a mutual agreement to end it. Sometimes the MM gets divorced and doesn't want to continue with the OW, sometimes the MM gets divorced and the OW doesn't want him any longer. Sometimes... they get together.

[Sami_D]

the longer the relationship continues with you allowing him to be a cakeman, the less likely your relationship is to survive. you were given this advice long ago though sami.

 

I know newbby... The advice I was given (in October) was to go NC. But going NC has to be for me, because I can't stand the situation any longer. Doing NC because I want him to choose between being with me and leaving his M isn't going to have any positive outcome. Is it..?