I am falling for my married dentist - please help!

[newbby]

it is just confusing to somebody who is in love and being heavily encouraged by the object of their affections to listen to all these attacks. us ow do know it is a confusing and addictive relationship, i dont know, even having been there, what the best approach should be.

i think having the strength to walk away comes with feeling that theres enough love around you that you dont need his "love", or finding the strength within. i dont think judgement from all around is a supportive environment to finding that hope and strength, thats all.

[Sami_D]

Well I can speak for myself on this, because I told a friend right when I was getting involved with MM, that I felt something for him and my friend said 'you're going to get hurt'... and I thought... will I? Actually I was already hurt just in finding out that someone I clicked with so much was M... when MM told me (our second conversation) I just welled up with tears.

 

But I think it is possible to separate the 'oh no, he's perfect and his married1' situation from the 'he's a sh*t AND he's married' situations.

 

(Of course... those are the OW views of the MM... and we can all be mistaken, even when the man in question is single. So I am assuming the woman in question knows how to differentiate a lying shyster from someone who is genuine.)

 

The trouble with mandy is that she's in an 'he's a sh*t and he's married' situation, and she has no clue that that's the case. I have no idea why people post on here about the situation they're in and then consistently ignore everything that's posted in response, but it appears that those are exactly the threads that get the majority of responses.

 

All that aside, and getting to what I really feel about this story, mandy seems to be embroidering the truth (he talked to her parents for hours while having xmas drinks... and her Dad didn't find out he was married..??, he walks on the beach for hours, and tells her not to wear perfume, but sends her infantile texts in the middle of the night. etc, etc...) so that it's impossible to tell what of this is real and what is fantasy.

 

AND the whole thing smells of teenage obsession, rather than anything approaching a real R... which makes me even more annoyed that this is the only thread in OW that gets any real response.

[Sami_D]

it is just confusing to somebody who is in love and being heavily encouraged by the object of their affections to listen to all these attacks. us ow do know it is a confusing and addictive relationship

 

Personally I'd like to say that my R with MM isn't at all confusing or addictive. I wonder whether those who are involved with MM where that is the case aren't involved with somone who is also abusive or Narcissistic on top of being M.

 

I say this because a lot of the Affairs I've read about here seem to share the same characteristics as the abusive R i was involved in. I have no doubt that an abusive man could present himself to another woman outside his M as 'the perfect man'... it's very much easier to make a claim as Mr. Ideal if you don't have to be around the entire time being yourself.

 

So... I think that a great many OW are involved with 'mr. perfect' abuser type who is already married. And if you have no idea how to spot these types, then you're going to be very vulnerable to them, especially if you're an empathetic woman.

[seachange]

Not to hijack mandy's thread (page 27 and counting!!) but: Sami, at one time you were indeed very confused, weren't you? I'm not picking on you, I just remember your earlier posts, and what you've said here doesn't jibe with the intense feelings you were dealing with not very long ago.

[newbby]

sami, mandys story is not so far fetched, and if as you say, you are one of the rare few ow that bagged a good catch, then you would also agree that you wouldnt have any idea of how the cake eater actually behaves.

yeah mandy is geting involved with a s***, and alot of women you and myself included, have done this at some point or a few points even.

does that mean she should be attacked? no.

encouraged to continue? no

told that she can do what she likes and she can beat herself up with the help of this mm if she likes, but it is a shame because she deserves better? maybe, i dont know.

[newbby]

i wasnt going to point that out seachange, but since you have already done so. yes samid, you were confused, and finding it very hard to make the "right" decision.

[whichwayisup]

Still, if he was THAT good, he wouldn't be cheating on his wife. Or atleast he'd be ending the marriage and THEN working on a relationship with you.

 

Each situation is different because of the people invovled. It's the OUTCOME and the pain that every OW has in common. I think when someone really gives that advice that comes off the wrong way at times, it probably has more to do with the poster and her/his own personal experience and how they feel and what THEY would do in a situation like that.

 

All I really want for Mandy is to SEE the whole picture. Understand what I've said to her. Sometimes I feel she gets it and other times she just fluffs it away like no big deal, I don't care about the consquences. It's times like those I feel she is gonna learn the hard way...A painful way.

[newbby]

yes wwiu, i am sure that anybody embarking on this relationship is not of healthy happy mentality at the time though. i know for myself, i was not.

i suppose it is different for everybody in many ways, but from what mandy has said, i think she is rather desperate for love and happiness, and also, 22 is not very old.

[seachange]

i wasnt going to point that out seachange, but since you have already done so. yes samid, you were confused, and finding it very hard to make the "right" decision.

 

Yeah, I wavered about saying it, because I didn't say it to pick on sami. But I do think it's misleading to suggest that even if she has found some equilibrium for the moment, her ride as always been smooth sailing. The MM may be varying degrees of dishonest and narcissistic, but the situation still includes a great deal of pain. (Unless you can manage to be what Lucrezia Borgia calls a happy OW - but I don't think Sami falls into that category.)

[Sami_D]

Not to hijack mandy's thread (page 27 and counting!!) but: Sami, at one time you were indeed very confused, weren't you? I'm not picking on you, I just remember your earlier posts, and what you've said here doesn't jibe with the intense feelings you were dealing with not very long ago.

 

What do you think I was confused about?

 

My thread is still around, there having been next to no posts after I went NC with him... it's all still available. I don't think I have changed my mind about him or (my view of) his aims in the past couple of months.

 

I'd like to chat more about it if anyone else would. Please feel free to ressurect my thread and comment on what happened. Only I have the idea that most of the posts on this forum are about ending affairs, rather than dealing with them, and living with them (which is what I am trying to do at the moment).

[Sami_D]

sami, mandys story is not so far fetched, and if as you say, you are one of the rare few ow that bagged a good catch, then you would also agree that you wouldnt have any idea of how the cake eater actually behaves.

yeah mandy is geting involved with a s***, and alot of women you and myself included, have done this at some point or a few points even.

does that mean she should be attacked? no.

encouraged to continue? no

told that she can do what she likes and she can beat herself up with the help of this mm if she likes, but it is a shame because she deserves better? maybe, i dont know.

 

I have no idea if I have 'bagged' (meaning..? He's still married) one of the 'good catches'... WELL actually I would really love if this forum dealt with that kind of situation, and the nailing of it... but it doesn't, it deals with Affairs. It's not a real OW forum at all.

 

As far as knowing how other men behave, of whatever 'type' they are (if indeed anyone can be categorised in that manner), I think that, at my stage of life, and with my experience of Rs, then I have just exactly the same right to comment on this thread as anyone else.

 

I have commented on this thread two or three times, and each time, someone comes popping up to say how i'm judging and condemning. Well fair enough, if you don't know the difference between judgmental comments and comments meant to say that someone is making a MISTAKE... then that's the problem of those interpreting my meaning.

 

Mandy is making big mistakes. She is doing that because she is unable to judge the situation as it is. The things she is doing are not those that a sensible person acting on good information would do. THOSE facts are undeniable. The fact that I'm an OW doesn't alter that at all.

 

Bashing me because I am pointing that out isn't doing anyone a favour. In fact you're only giving mandy ammunition by trying to discredit another person's POV (and one involved in an A, therefore EVIDENTLY not opposing on moral or 'mine didn't work out' grounds)

[Sami_D]

i wasnt going to point that out seachange, but since you have already done so. yes samid, you were confused, and finding it very hard to make the "right" decision.

 

Actually no, I wasn't wondering what decision to make, but I was unhappy and wondering where I stood and looking for input. My first post here was asking for input from people whose MM had said they were going to leave. I wanted to know what stories or advice people had.

 

Most people said he would never leave, and told me to go NC. I asked over and over what that was meant to do for me or for him. I got no real response... but that it would be a good thing to do. So I did go NC for a while, but lacking any real reason to do so, I ended it after 2 weeks.

 

During the entire NC period there was no support on this board. Which is why it annoys me that this idiotic situation with mandy gets all this attention... since she's NOT listening to any of you!!

 

And newbby, I don't think that all MM who have As can be categorised in the same way. Not all of them are sh*ts. And I think it's a little bit silly that this OW forum is more about OW getting into arguments about their Rs and how 'acceptable' they are, rather than women actually debating those situations and learning and growing from them.

 

Personally, I'm staying on this forum because I'm involved with a MM.

[newbby]

samid,

i didnt mean to upset you. i was just wondering why ow in general and myself included at times seem to criticise so much, when in fact we were or are in the same place. for a while i was getting upset with mandy for giving ow a bad name, making it seem we pursue the mm, and i was quite vocal on that. then i realised mandy has been being manipulated by this mm from the start. she is after all only 22 and he is what 40 something. it seems as though she is not listening to people sometimes, but she so wants to believe he loves her. how are we so different?

[seachange]

My thread is still around, there having been next to no posts after I went NC with him... it's all still available. I don't think I have changed my mind about him or (my view of) his aims in the past couple of months.

 

Yes, I know - I actually went back to refresh my memory before posting the first time. But you're right; rather than discuss it in detail here, I can post back over there in a little bit. To be honest, though, my only point was that yes, you were hurting, yes you were confused, and believe me, I'm happy for you that you've found a measure of peace, but what you wrote there doesn't tell the whole story, as we've had a chance to read it. Not about the character of your MM (though you did wonder at one time) but primarily about your state of mind as an OW, and the degree of contentment you expressed in that role.

 

Which, to return from this thread hijack that I started, is the information I thought we were trying to impart to mandy here. No matter how great the guy is, she will still get very hurt. And if he isn't great, like this dentist appears not to be, then she will get very hurt indeed.

[Sami_D]

Still, if he was THAT good, he wouldn't be cheating on his wife. Or atleast he'd be ending the marriage and THEN working on a relationship with you..

 

Sorry... is this meant to be a response to me..? (or have I misread)

 

In which ways did I comment on MY R..?

[Sami_D]

Yeah, I wavered about saying it, because I didn't say it to pick on sami. But I do think it's misleading to suggest that even if she has found some equilibrium for the moment, her ride as always been smooth sailing. The MM may be varying degrees of dishonest and narcissistic, but the situation still includes a great deal of pain. (Unless you can manage to be what Lucrezia Borgia calls a happy OW - but I don't think Sami falls into that category.)

 

Well if we're going to talk about MY situation perhaps it might be good to talk about that on another thread, since the last information you all had was early October..?

[newbby]

Actually no, I wasn't wondering what decision to make, but I was unhappy and wondering where I stood and looking for input. My first post here was asking for input from people whose MM had said they were going to leave. I wanted to know what stories or advice people had.

 

Most people said he would never leave, and told me to go NC. I asked over and over what that was meant to do for me or for him. I got no real response... but that it would be a good thing to do. So I did go NC for a while, but lacking any real reason to do so, I ended it after 2 weeks.

 

During the entire NC period there was no support on this board. Which is why it annoys me that this idiotic situation with mandy gets all this attention... since she's NOT listening to any of you!!

 

And newbby, I don't think that all MM who have As can be categorised in the same way. Not all of them are sh*ts. And I think it's a little bit silly that this OW forum is more about OW getting into arguments about their Rs and how 'acceptable' they are, rather than women actually debating those situations and learning and growing from them.

 

Personally, I'm staying on this forum because I'm involved with a MM.

 

 

sami,

i dont really know what you mean by this.

i was never suggesting you should not be on this forum. even if i were in any position to decide such a thing then why would i suggest that?

i wasnt picking on anybody at all, or even arguing, just saying i think mandy has had it a bit harshly from everyone including ow who should at least partially understand what its like.

i wasnt categorising anybody either, i said mandy is getting involved with a s***, that is clear, and that alot of women have done, you included because you said you were involved with a narcissist.

on your thread sami, i did try to help, but i also didnt really think i was qualified with that kind of situation. i know what you mean about the nc, i did also experience that with nc, there seemed to be noone around to support, until the october club thing. i am sorry about that. i suggested you talking to old europe because i felt she was better qualified, since i was obviously unsuccesful in making anything good come from my a, or the a was never going to be anything good anyway. also i find i do often tend to view ALL mm as liars and manipulators, i do find it hard to know what to suggest to someone who is sure their mm is not that type.

i know i am being really angry lately and probably not even making much sense, i apologise for this, i am going through a bit of a patch.

[seachange]

Hm. Think we crossed in the mail, Sami - but see what I wrote, above.

 

Another quick thing, re: why mandy's thread has had so much activity...I think there are two reasons: one, because people aren't so sure her mind is made up to do this, she was on the cusp of it, so posters still thought they could intervene to help. There appear to be few success stories posting on here - Old Europe being a notable exception - so, like newbby, I don't know that anyone knew what to tell you.

 

And the other reason people are posting here, IMO, is because it's an easy one - the guy's clearly an a$$, so telling her to chuck it and possibly give him a quick knee in the groin while she's at it is a no-brainer.

[Sami_D]

samid,

i didnt mean to upset you. i was just wondering why ow in general and myself included at times seem to criticise so much, when in fact we were or are in the same place. for a while i was getting upset with mandy for giving ow a bad name, making it seem we pursue the mm, and i was quite vocal on that. then i realised mandy has been being manipulated by this mm from the start. she is after all only 22 and he is what 40 something. it seems as though she is not listening to people sometimes, but she so wants to believe he loves her. how are we so different?

 

I don't know, newbby. Because I'm not really looking at categorising people or judging them. I'm looking at what's going on. We are ALL capable of making mistakes, and being led on. We are ALL human. That's not the issue - it's not even important (other than if someone would benefit from counselling) or interesting.

 

What is at issue is someone coming here and wanting to talk about their situation. And then we can all come on and say that we have been there, done that, and can offer something in the way of information because of our own experience, and perhaps websites that have helped us.

 

I don't think it's Criticism, exactly. Partly, mostly, I think it has to be protection (where those people offering advice are OW or ex-OW). I do think there are SOME times when the ex/currentOW is bashing the MM because of repressed feelings they have about their own situation.

[Sami_D]

To be honest, though, my only point was that yes, you were hurting, yes you were confused, and believe me, I'm happy for you that you've found a measure of peace, but what you wrote there doesn't tell the whole story, as we've had a chance to read it. Not about the character of your MM (though you did wonder at one time) but primarily about your state of mind as an OW, and the degree of contentment you expressed in that role.

 

Seachange, I would be really happy if you'd comment again on my thread. I haven't resurrected it because no-one was interested in it once I'd gone NC. And also because this isn't really an OW forum... but a 'how not to be an' OW forum.

[Sami_D]

sami,

i dont really know what you mean by this.

i was never suggesting you should not be on this forum. even if i were in any position to decide such a thing then why would i suggest that?

i wasnt picking on anybody at all, or even arguing, just saying i think mandy has had it a bit harshly from everyone including ow who should at least partially understand what its like.

i wasnt categorising anybody either, i said mandy is getting involved with a s***, that is clear, and that alot of women have done, you included because you said you were involved with a narcissist.

on your thread sami, i did try to help, but i also didnt really think i was qualified with that kind of situation. i know what you mean about the nc, i did also experience that with nc, there seemed to be noone around to support, until the october club thing. i am sorry about that. i suggested you talking to old europe because i felt she was better qualified, since i was obviously unsuccesful in making anything good come from my a, or the a was never going to be anything good anyway. also i find i do often tend to view ALL mm as liars and manipulators, i do find it hard to know what to suggest to someone who is sure their mm is not that type.

i know i am being really angry lately and probably not even making much sense, i apologise for this, i am going through a bit of a patch.

 

You know I don't know if mandy would feel badly if she had been bashed by OW or anyone else here. She's young, unhurt, and totally free to do what she wants to do. And even if she gets hurt here.. she may not even feel it.

 

I wonder though if what is happening here is that OW are having a go at each other because of the way we're approaching things. You're talking here about MM as manipulators... but I am sure that would be better in another thread or somewhere else. I dont' know. I have noticed a couple of threads in the last couple of days and commented on them... they weren't to do with MM, but they were to do with abusive types, and I am sure that you and I both have experiences to share on here, but we have tended till now to categorise ourselves as OW rather than as people involved with Ns or abusive people? I don't know.

 

I don't think that discrediting other people's first hand knowledge of particular events is a great thing.

[newbby]

yes sami, i see what you are saying, this is not really an ow forum in that sense. maybe because the whole site is an advice site rather than a community as such. there have been some ow in here recently that were happy being the ow though and maybe more in your situation because of it. to be honest i found it hard to leave the ow part of the forum and even now when i am not even an ow any longer, i kind of feel a bit unwelcomed in other parts of the site. it is good for ow in any kind of situation, type of relationship to come here because at least they will not get bashed by everybody, which i am sure they would in other forums.

i suppose i do find it difficult not to view mm as manipulative, but i am not angry about that, i also believe that alot of mm do not set out to be so, but the situation being as it is brings out that characteristic. i believe that as soon as the affair begins properly the relationship is doomed to failure, in which case it would be better for all ow to leave the relationship with support. of course it may not be the case with every mm ow relationship but in the majority it is.

[Sami_D]

Yeah newbby, it's not an OW site... but actually there's not so much OW bashing as there could be. And sadly, not enough OW support as there might be.

 

And then, as you say, people come here in the midst of an affair, and are labelled as such... as if nothing else ever happened to those people that would enable them to comment on another situation.

 

I don't know how many people contribute to this site... but actually, having been here a few months, I see the same names over and over. Which is why I haven't really found a reason to display/reveal/ask questions about my own situation in the past month or two. I did at first, hoping that the site and its contributors might have some insight and knowledge that I just didnt' see... but actually, a couple of months on.. i see those names that I read with some degree of hope are now making comments on other threads that i disagree with (they seem to be all-knowledgeable) (or their Rs are ludicrous, naming no names)... and when it comes down to it I believe I'm intelligent enough to know what the main protagonists here would say about it...

 

... not sure whether that makes me all-knowing or idiotic, the site useless, or my situation inevitable...

[OldEurope]

Dear Sami,

 

I have read your complaint about not "seeing" the advice you need or think you may need and instead a few too many catfights on this site. The editors warn of this, and it is true even in my own case I have snapped at a few posters who were beyond the limits of tolerable in my view--where common sense/seeing the light were just not kicking in.....but to my larger point...

 

Not to plug my own thread (well, okay, I will), but you MIGHT look at a thread I wrote in Sept I believe it was entitled "What Wins-What loses" regarding my own unusual situation. I think some of the themes are timeless and therefore the thread still "fresh" for certain situation. I by no means claim any superior wisdom BUT certain things did work for me as I applied them--and rather well. So as you weed out people here, do remain to keep an eye on those who just might be able to offer some help

[whichwayisup]

Good post reply OE.

 

Some advice given may be harsh, yes, but if you take away the harshness of it, sometimes it's good to really read it and see the full picture of the situation.

 

Sami, I honestly can't remember your situation, if you're still with your MM or on NC. I think though, and this applies to any OW or OM - If the person you're with is the right one for you and you are for him/her (Soulmate kinda deal) don't you think they would do ALL possible to BE with you? I don't know...The heart chooses who it falls inlove with but it's the mind that makes the final choice. And someone else pointed that out, newbby and I think I did too, frame of mind is a big part of it. Taking control, being strong and knowing you're doing the best thing for YOU - Even if it hurts to walk away...

 

I think again, in Mandy's case, she still can't really see the full picture hense her confusion and what's happened recently - Her dentist MM is pushing her buttons and just watching and waiting for her reactions. He may not have the full intention of having a full on affair with her, yet he is showing signs of interest of something on the side very hush hush...