whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Mandy, sorry for stealing your thread and going off topic about your life, but maybe reading what the others have and are going through WILL help you now, just seeing what their lives are like in the present. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 have you ever tried quitting? Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Well I'd appreciate your input. If you could point out something specific, or a particular aspect of what I've said, what he's said, or what he's done, that you can offer advice on... then I'm all ears. Not biting. You are clinging to your hope with all your might and will wrestle me to the death to 'prove' you should. Instead, you need to ask yourself why you're so hellbent on trying to beat the odds - or is that the challenge? What need drives you so strongly that you'll settle for what you know logically to be a bad deal? Are you just clinging to prove everybody else wrong? Sometimes we'll do that - be obstinate just to 'show the buggers' even though we're fighting for something we don't want that much. I'm just speculating. There are many possible reasons for you doing what you know intellectually is not useful or good for you. It's to you to figure it out and I suggest you do. You can examine other OW's posts and see if their reasons apply to you. Or maybe you have your own. As I said elsewhere, like any other attempt to fill one's emptiness - be it with drugs, food, alcohol, whatever - trying to fill your emptiness with somebody else's husband doesn't work. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Well to be quite honest WWIU, I don't feel badly. I'm not in the midst of a terrible whirlwind of feeling. I'm going into the third year of knowing someone I really enjoy spending time with... I love him, and he feels the same. I don't even wonder too much about the time he spends with W... I know how he feels about me... and why he's living his life the way he is. I would prefer if he could pull apart from her, divorce and believe that his C would still love him AND she would allow him all the access he wants... but men don't always feel that confidence, do they..? AND we all know that divorced fathers DON'T get the access they want. THAT is a fact. I'm wondering if someone (apart from RecordProducer, who did once say she understood that connection between daughter and Dad, and not wanting to be broken apart and face the step-parent situation) could step in here and help. But (perhaps because this is in OW forum) people aren't commenting on the other relationships involved here. And I DO think they matter. Father-daughter Rs do matter... and I won't judge this situation solely on his and my romantic love for eachother. WWIU.. what IS the real picture... can you say that he's using his children so he's not with me..? Or is he really wondering/worried about what will happen if he actually says 'I'm sorry, I'm leaving' to his W? Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 sami, i suppose you could give yourself a time when you think the getting to know each other period should end, and then stand firm and discontinue the relationship. not so much an ultimatum as a right i have been understanding but can no longer continue to compromise myself. newbby, I think that's what I have already done. I have in mind at the moment a time limit. Of course that's a mental time limit, and the heart/emotions will set their own ... which may be before or after that. I think that that is all I can do, and you're so right. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 wwiu, shame on you for smoking, i could think up a good analogy for people who smoke, involving ow and mm.... Yeah... I agree... and so would MM. In fact, the time we got together was when he was recovering from having a lung tumour removed... he vowed right then to live his life differently... gave up smoking... took up me. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 It's a mess, or will be. The realization just now - You are holding yourself back, missing out on some wonderful experiences, relationships in life because of this man. Neither of you have the strength to end it and walk away. Maybe if his wife found out, it would end completely. I don't know... And I don't know if he is using his kids as an excuse. Only he knows that, and I'm betting not alot of thought is being put into it in general anyway. He is a guy and (most) men aren't in the habit of thinking and over analyzing their lives in detail like us gals do...I believe from what you've said about him, he is thinking abit - But not enough to actually DO and CHANGE things. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Oh I've tried to quit smoking...All comes down to when to say ENOUGH and getting my frame of mind ready. I'm not there yet but getting close. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Not biting. You are clinging to your hope with all your might and will wrestle me to the death to 'prove' you should. Instead, you need to ask yourself why you're so hellbent on trying to beat the odds - or is that the challenge? What need drives you so strongly that you'll settle for what you know logically to be a bad deal? Are you just clinging to prove everybody else wrong? Sometimes we'll do that - be obstinate just to 'show the buggers' even though we're fighting for something we don't want that much. I'm just speculating. There are many possible reasons for you doing what you know intellectually is not useful or good for you. It's to you to figure it out and I suggest you do. You can examine other OW's posts and see if their reasons apply to you. Or maybe you have your own. As I said elsewhere, like any other attempt to fill one's emptiness - be it with drugs, food, alcohol, whatever - trying to fill your emptiness with somebody else's husband doesn't work. You're 'not biting' to respond to anything specific in my situation, but continue to reply in a generic 'this is what affairs are like' fashion..? OK. The rest of your post doesn't apply to me. Because no, I don't have a great need to buck any trends. In fact, whenever I speak to him about this (and that tends to be just about any day we talk), I really am of the opinion that most things are as they are, and will be as they will be. And I'm looking for reasons he could give me that would make this anything other than 'what always happens': So no... you're wrong. Still got your fingers in your ears..? Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 sami, the most anyone can do as far as what is going on in your mm's head is speculate. his relationship with his daughter is undoubtedly important, the most important thing to him. i suppose what you are getting at is, does he love you enough? is the daughter thing just an excuse? is he stringing you along? if the answers to those things were that the only thing keeping him from being with you completely was his daughter, but that it was important enough that he would never leave, then what decision would you make? Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 It's a mess, or will be. The realization just now - You are holding yourself back, missing out on some wonderful experiences, relationships in life because of this man. Neither of you have the strength to end it and walk away. Maybe if his wife found out, it would end completely. I don't know... And I don't know if he is using his kids as an excuse. Only he knows that, and I'm betting not alot of thought is being put into it in general anyway. He is a guy and (most) men aren't in the habit of thinking and over analyzing their lives in detail like us gals do...I believe from what you've said about him, he is thinking abit - But not enough to actually DO and CHANGE things. WWIU... this post says exactly what I'm thinking about the situation. Down to the last detail. And I just don't know what to do now. I just don't know. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 sami, the most anyone can do as far as what is going on in your mm's head is speculate. his relationship with his daughter is undoubtedly important, the most important thing to him. i suppose what you are getting at is, does he love you enough? is the daughter thing just an excuse? is he stringing you along? if the answers to those things were that the only thing keeping him from being with you completely was his daughter, but that it was important enough that he would never leave, then what decision would you make? Well I don't think the daughter thing is an excuse exactly. But I do think that if he could get his head around things... then he could still have a good R with her, and also stop lying to everyone, and still be with me. I do believe that... but at the moment, he doesn't have any belief in that and/or he doesn't have any reason to make that a reality. And I don't know what will help with that... Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 So, you think and take some time ... About what it is YOU want. Don't leave the choice up to him. Maybe not now, so close to Xmas, but in the New Year. Take a break from him. Just a suggestion. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Oh I've tried to quit smoking...All comes down to when to say ENOUGH and getting my frame of mind ready. I'm not there yet but getting close. its never as hard as you build it up to be. just do it. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Like the nike ad says...Just DO IT. In the New Year ... (Don't forget, I'm a procrastinator too, so that definately doesn't help!) Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Well I don't think the daughter thing is an excuse exactly. But I do think that if he could get his head around things... then he could still have a good R with her, and also stop lying to everyone, and still be with me. I do believe that... but at the moment, he doesn't have any belief in that and/or he doesn't have any reason to make that a reality. And I don't know what will help with that... well since you actually know each other now, the only good reason i can think of to do that is if he is not having it all. you know this too. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Ack... stop reading my mind, you two. Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Sami, you break my heart sometimes...you really do. Because you seem like such a sweet girl, and much too pretty to be waiting around like this. 3 years is 36 months. It's 1,095 days. And in all that time.....this guy still can't make a decision. That's just not right. Because it leaves YOU as a perpetual mistress. There are folks who can live with that, some who seek it even. But it leaves YOU without a family, without a person that you call Home. If those things are important to you....then you need to deal with that. I love my kids. They are the light of my life, God knows it's true. But my husband is my home. Now, I'll grant you....that's new. Same as alot of women I got caught up in my role as mama, and didn't spend the time or energy required to keep up the marital relationship. But now that I've turned the corner, I realize that the partnership I have within my marriage is my foundation. I'm not alone against the world. There's someone who is ALWAYS on my side, and will be for as long as life allows. Geez hon, you're missing that. How great is this guy anyway if he's willing to allow you to miss one of the greatest life experiences ever? Lots of folks get divorced. And it really IS hard on kids. But there's a multitude of divorced parents who are still good parents. The biggest problem in divorce is NOT that Mommy and Daddy don't live together. It's that one of them become neglectful of the daily needs of the child. My parents are divorced. And it wasn't the divorce that hurt. It was that my parents were still so involved in their love-lives or their bickering that they were inattentive to their children. The guy has no excuse. Really he doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites
erika2610 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Just a question Erika. IF you had people telling you, discouraging you from getting involved with MM, would you have listened, understood and taken their advice? Honestly? Sometimes even with that knowledge, people are gonna do what they're gonna do... I honestly don't think I would've listened.. and I admit that. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 The rest of your post doesn't apply to me. Because no, I don't have a great need to buck any trends. In fact, whenever I speak to him about this (and that tends to be just about any day we talk), I really am of the opinion that most things are as they are, and will be as they will be. And I'm looking for reasons he could give me that would make this anything other than 'what always happens': So no... you're wrong. I was just tossing out some options in hope that you would follow on by exploring options yourself. Still got your fingers in your ears..? You're the one who's being defensive. You are in a vehicle travelling 250 mph towards a brick wall and I'm trying to wave you away. I can step away any time - I'm fine. It's you who's keeping your foot on the accelerator. You and mandy are determined not to be deterred. Fine. But I'll be in the lineup to 'I told you so' because people who ignore warnings drive me bugs. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 so your motives here outcast are? are you trying to upset someone just because they annoy you? because that it how it seems. go and work on that empathy some more eh Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 so your motives here outcast are? I already told you. Logic isn't working. Sometimes shocking someone into reality does. Now how's about you decide to quit deciding everything people other than you do is meant to 'attack' people. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 oh no, i am quite aware that i am attacking people aswell, but i am not running around pretending i am more empathic than everyone else. anyway i am sure youre a nice girl really. i am leaving now. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Go back and read lindya's link on empathy (I think it was lindya's). Empathy isn't always patting someone on the hand. Empathy can include confronting someone, particularly when they are on a path of self-destructive behaviour. It's not only understanding why a person is doing what she's doing, but also what it might take to help her out of her issues. It is NOT enabling. Link to post Share on other sites
lindya Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Go back and read lindya's link on empathy (I think it was lindya's). Empathy isn't always patting someone on the hand. Empathy can include confronting someone, particularly when they are on a path of self-destructive behaviour. It's not only understanding why a person is doing what she's doing, but also what it might take to help her out of her issues. It is NOT enabling. I'm not sure if it was mine, but I'd certainly concur. I don't see that empathy involves placing people into some sort of bubble where only their feelings matter, where warnings as to the likely consequences of their behaviour (as exemplified by the experiences of so many people on this board) are avoided for fear of seeming too generalistic....and where the feelings of others who may be affected by the affair don't require to be taken into account as a relevant consideration. This is probably why most of the time I try to avoid the OW section of the forum. There seems to be an unwritten rule that unless advice is offered within that protective bubble, it will be written off as being judgemental and unkind. Link to post Share on other sites
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