whichwayisup Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Just wanted to say that I have never, in this entire thread, seen anything that shows that the Dentist 'chose' or was in any way pursuing mandy. I think she was interested in him, layed it all out on a platter, and continues to do so. I don't think he's 'innocent' at all... he continues to accept her offers of 'Christmas drinks' and coffee, etc... but let's face it. Has he EVER made one move towards her..? No. He's not pursuing... he's sitting back and taking the texts. MM who doesn't have to do any work. He kissed her, he met her parents, like a date she brought home. He is playing the cat/mouse game with her. Unless she's lied about some of things he's said and done with her, he is doing SOMETHING that is feeding his ego. Something is missing from his home life that he is getting from Mandy. The problem is HE is fueling the fire by allowing this to continue for his own seflish needs. THAT is what she doesn't seem to understand. He doesn't have her best interests at heart...He's only thinking of "ME, MYSELF and I." Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Pain is pain and there's no point in saying who feels more pain and why. Each party involved feels pain, though the BS gets HURT the most because they weren't privy to what was going on and they get blindsided when they find out about the A. correction the ow is not usually privy to all the information either. The OW/MM at some point KNOWS that it will end and so therefore that neediness and desperate that is felt takes over and maybe short term the intensity of the pain is awful but long term the OW/OM can go on. After a long marriage it's harder to pick up the pieces. There's more long term pain, betrayal and history...Owl summed it up in his post earlier. i was agreeing with this so i dont know what you are on about. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 correction the ow is not usually privy to all the information either. Yes, not all the info, but alot of it. The OW at some point knows the MM is married. i was agreeing with this so i dont know what you are on about. LOL..Neither do I. Don't mind me, I'm out of it today. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 He kissed her, he met her parents, like a date she brought home. He is playing the cat/mouse game with her. Unless she's lied about some of things he's said and done with her, he is doing SOMETHING that is feeding his ego. Something is missing from his home life that he is getting from Mandy. The problem is HE is fueling the fire by allowing this to continue for his own seflish needs. THAT is what she doesn't seem to understand. He doesn't have her best interests at heart...He's only thinking of "ME, MYSELF and I." Well maybe he IS missing 'something' from his home life. But I fail to see, and have failed to see all through this thread... ONE single instance of him ACTIVELY pursuing mandy. When..? So he kissed her... when SHE'S asked him to drinks with her parents..? He's touched her when SHE'S asked him to walk along the beach..? And now, after 2 weeks of not doing a single thing to respond to her she's ASKED HIM to coffee and he's gone... err... this is not a man who NEEDS to pursue mandy... she's doing all the work. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have more or less decided that I am going to pursue this man as I feel that he is also attracted to me in the same way. Just quoting mandy's first post for anyone who has perhaps forgotten the point of it all. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So? People here post that they're wanting to commit suicide. Do we just pat them on the head and say 'go to it'? What is with this perverse idea that 'support' means 'always agreeing with'??? It doesn't. Period. End of story. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 But it's not the OW betraying the spouse. That accusation belongs to the WS. I don't know if there's a lot to be gained by comparing the 'hurts' that people feel in different situations. I think that to an extent that has to be personal, and based on expectations (including expecting deaths when your parents are older, vs. the shock of the early death of a parent or SO). I would say that ANY kind of betrayal of trust, and the discovery of such, must be right up there on the list of life-shattering things. In this, the BS is really going to suffer in a way that the OW can't even imagine (unless she's had a similar experience of course). Which is one reason I'm always surprised at this 'tell the other spouse' thing that BS feel when the OW is married. That is going to ruin someone else's life, and yet in one case (when both cheaters are M) it's advocated, and in another (when the OW is single) it's frowned upon. I don't think that the degree of hurt likely to be suffered by those told is ever really appreciated. You raise some good points here Sami. The reason that most of BS's push that the OTHER BS be told is actually pretty clear once you see the angle in it. You see, for the vast majority of the BS's, the hurt isn't so much about the physical aspects of the affair...it's the deception and lies that hurt so much. The ONE person you trusted with your heart and trust and love...the ONE person you thought you COULD trust in this way...betrayed you in the most painful fashion conceivable. Or darned close. It's the fact that this went on...and YOU were right there in the midst of it, all unknowing. BS's kick themselves in the butt for a LONG time after the affair. Trust me on this...I still do it myself, and I know better. Why didn't I SEE what was going on? Why didn't I pry harder when I suspected? Why didn't someone tell me what they suspected so I could at least have started looking for what was happening myself?? Why, why, why, WHY?!?!! Part of the reason that the pain goes on far longer for the BS too is that it often takes a LONG time for them to get the truth out of the WS on what happened with the affair. The WS often fights to keep it secret, even after it ended. It's all still LIES. Still deceiving the BS about what went on. And it stays that way until the WS finally comes clean about what happened, how when why where. I push for the other BS to be told so that the lies END. And for the underlying problems that either existed in the marriage prior to the affair, or were created by the affair can now be addressed. No one is going to work on a problem that they're not willing to admit exists. Nothing to be done until both parties can agree that there is a problem. Exposure to the other BS lets them know that there is a problem...it gives them a REASON for all the stupidity that has been going on in their own marriage for a while...a light bulb usually comes on for them. And...it is a critical first step for them to start to FIX the marriage. Make sense now friend? Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So? People here post that they're wanting to commit suicide. Do we just pat them on the head and say 'go to it'? What is with this perverse idea that 'support' means 'always agreeing with'??? It doesn't. Period. End of story. What are you trying to say..? No one is suggesting that mandy is supported in pursuing the Dentist. I'm pointing out what she's been asking for and why she's not listening to many people's comments. No one is advocating anyone doing anything. That's just in your mind, I think. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Make sense now friend? But doesn't that pain of not knowing everything start when you realise there's something you don't know..? Is it better to know that you don't know everything, or to not know anything at all..? As long as the Affair is over... which position is better..? I have to think that it depends on the individual.. and also... sometimes... even if you THINK you need to know... then I don't know if you're not happier not knowing ... as long as it's over. OWL... I just don't know which is better. I just don't think that a blanket THAT person should know because it suits ME is a kind way to go. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Well, if the affair ended on it's own, what's to stop it from starting back up again? By telling the other spouse, they can start working to fix the problems in THEIR marriage that lead to one of them stepping out of the marriage. There ARE sometimes when people wish they didn't know. But from what I've seen, most people would rather have found out than to continue to live in a lie. Than to continue to live in an environment that would allow their spouse have ANOTHER affair, or to somehow continue the one that was ongoing. It prevents them from taking their OWN actions to safegaurd their marriage. You and I may never agree on this, and that's fine friend. I'm an advocate for telling the other spouse for basically two reasons...it allows them to be aware of what's going on and to fix their own marriage...AND...if they're fixing their own marriage, that will help prevent a recurrence of the affair with MY spouse. I've always been a person who'd 'rather know so I can fix the problem' as opposed to being one who would rather not know so we can avoid the conflict that it would create. Don't mean that as an insult if it came out that way...I'm not sure how to phrase that properly. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Owl, I would always rather know, absolutely. But I'm such a worrier, and so keen on having a good R above all else that I can't imagine any way that I'd drift into being surprised that someone drifted away from me... I'm too keen on a good R to allow something to just 'happen' while I wasn't looking. But to respond to one particular thing you said... Well, if the affair ended on it's own, what's to stop it from starting back up again? By telling the other spouse, they can start working to fix the problems in THEIR marriage that lead to one of them stepping out of the marriage. From my perspective, affairs don't just end. They have to be ended for some reason. I might just as well ask you... if an affair ended, why on Earth would it start up again..? I think that anyone in a R (M or otherwise)... if they want that R to continue, to be good... they have to work on it and CARE for it... not to just believe that it will be ok whatever they do as long as there's a ring on the finger. Rings on fingers, live-in relationship, long-term relationship whatever... these things need tending. It's too late (to my mind) when it's gone so far that the other person has disconnected enough that they're looking at, dreaming of, talking to, touching, having in-depth conversations with... etc... another person. WHY the hell did that happen at all? Everything after that is a band-aid. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I can't imagine any way that I'd drift into being surprised that someone drifted away from me. Pride goeth before a fall... Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 From my perspective, affairs don't just end. They have to be ended for some reason. I might just as well ask you... if an affair ended, why on Earth would it start up again..? SEX. It's just like regular relationships between single people that end. Sometimes we go back for the sex...I know I did when I was younger...It was over and neither of us really were FOR the relationship to continue...But we were addicted to the sex because it was so awesome. If the heat is still there, it's hard to just STOP. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 From my perspective, affairs don't just end. They have to be ended for some reason. I might just as well ask you... if an affair ended, why on Earth would it start up again..? I agree...it's very rare that an affair ends on its own. It's normally ENDED by discovery...and the subsequent fallout that takes place. But...affairs are extremely addictive. Ask the OW/OM here. It's normally a long, painful process to get the affair to end after it's discovered. It normally takes several NC attempts in order for NC to stick...and then the WS goes through a period of withdrawl that is only comparable to the withdrawl that a drug addict goes through. I've seen it personally. And, just like a drug addict, resumed contact between the WS and the OP can (and often does) result in a renewed addiction. So now you know why an affair would restart. Without taking 'extraordinary measures' to ensure that NC stays in place, the risk of an affair resuming are very high for a considerable length of time after an affair. If BOTH WS are working together with their respective partners to ensure that NC remains, it greatly enhances the chance that both marriages will recover. It's too late (to my mind) when it's gone so far that the other person has disconnected enough that they're looking at, dreaming of, talking to, touching, having in-depth conversations with... etc... another person. WHY the hell did that happen at all? Everything after that is a band-aid. Well, a lot of marriages that are impacted by an affair do end in divorce. But not all. A lot depends on the underlying issues within the marriage. And the individuals involved. And often even the circumstances that the marriage is currently in. Given the various types of 'love' that people share, there are actually several stages in any marriage or relationship that the marriage is more at risk for an affair than others. Doesn't mean that the marriage is unrecoverable...it simply means that it wasn't properly maintained to be able to handle these difficult times. But...maintenance can be learned and applied at any point in the marriage to improve it going forward. Take a look at WHEN most affairs occur in a marriage. The first likely time is about two years into the marriage...especially if there is a child in the marriage. This is the time frame when the "in love" feelings transition into a different kind of love...it's more of a deep, comfortable companionship. The 'lust' begins to fade somewhat...and the marriage is now dealing with the fun of a two year old toddler. LOTS of stress. Next is "the seven year-itch". Right at 7 years, the marriage again goes through a transition time. The demands placed on it are increasing...normally there are multiple children at various ages by this time. Difficulty in spending quality time together becomes more difficult. Additionally, it's around this time that professional careers really start impacting both partners. Everyone is focusing on just getting done what needs to happen on a day to day basis...and stops focusing nearly as much on their partner. Now...you're just too tired at the end of the day to lust after your partner. The 11-12 year timeframe sees some fun too. Now the demands of maintaining the career are on full force. You're working to build your finacial stability...just now starting to realize that this is going to be a long term battle. Kids have you going opposite directions. And now both you and your spouse are spending more and more time away from each other...even in the evenings. One parent takes kids one way...the other works nites. Oh, both of you are a decade older than you were...neither is looking as attractive as you did when you first met. You're starting to look your age...and feel it. You'll see a lot of 'mid-life crisis affairs' at this stage and the next. The 17-20 year area is the last I'll mention. Lets face it...you're both run down at this point. Teenagers in the house create a MAXIMUM of home stress. At this point, it's almost harder to come home than it is to stay at work and avoid the issues. Parenting issues are at an all time extreme. Both of you are going through endocrine system changes here...and the love that held you together now is almost entirely based on familiarity and comfort as opposed to lust. You're wondering if you made a mistake spending all this time dedicated to one person. Is this where I'm supposed to be? WHY don't I feel like I did for my spouse back when we got married?? Knowing this can help understand WHY affairs often happen at these points. And knowing why can help you deal with and RECOVER from them when they do. It doesn't mean that there were 'irrepairable differences' in the marriage. It means that one or both of you didn't understand enough about marriage dynamics to avoid these pitfalls. And that's why marriages CAN and DO recover from infidelity. Trust me...coming up on two years into recovery, and going strong. Link to post Share on other sites
Sami_D Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Pride goeth before a fall... Fair point. I just know what I'm like as a person, and in relationships. Personally, I'm always the one asking questions about the R and whether it's all ok... I'm just not one to let things drift at all. A R has always been a top priority with me whenever I'm in one. Not sure I'm exactly 'proud' of it, though I can imagine that is how it sounded. For the others who pointed out the sexual focus of many/most affairs and the 'additctive' nature of them. Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that, to be honest. I should have thought of it... because I read about that every time I come here! Durr. Link to post Share on other sites
wyldflower Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Mandy, This behaviour of yours is nothing short of "stalker-ish". Pressing a teddy bear tummy to say Merry Xmas into the phone? Creepy. You better forget this dude before he gets a restraining order on you. Obviously he liked the attention at first, or was just really bad at drawing clear boundaries, but the fact he hasn't responded to your letter says it all. HE DOESN'T CARE!!!!! He doesn't even care enough to tell you he doesn't care. Leave him alone before you scare him... if you haven't already. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Mandy, This behaviour of yours is nothing short of "stalker-ish". Pressing a teddy bear tummy to say Merry Xmas into the phone? Creepy. You better forget this dude before he gets a restraining order on you. Obviously he liked the attention at first, or was just really bad at drawing clear boundaries, but the fact he hasn't responded to your letter says it all. HE DOESN'T CARE!!!!! He doesn't even care enough to tell you he doesn't care. Leave him alone before you scare him... if you haven't already. you may have skipped a few posts wyldflower, dont blame you, its long... they are back in contact and he is still waiting for her to initiate sex, if she hasnt already, she hasnt posted for a while. Link to post Share on other sites
wyldflower Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Yeah, must have missed a couple of hundred posts. I dunno, though.... from the information she has given us and obvious obsession she has developed... do we really know if that's true? Just doesn't match up to the rest of his behaviour. I just hope this doesn't end in bunny-boiling. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 He likes the attention...Doesn't mean he actual has 'intent' of an affair. I'm sure that if she offered just sex and promised nothing else he'd consider it. BUT, she did write him a 5 paged letter over the holidays, infact she's not mentioned if he said anything about it. My guess is he just pretended like he never read it. Haven't had an update from Mandy in a while now, so my guess is she's probably done with LS and going to do whatever she wants... Link to post Share on other sites
Kat2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 If he is indeed real and not a figment of her imagination, he is a predator and a smooth operator which smacks of experience in this arena of extra marital affairs. The request that she cut down on the perfume and lipstick recommends he has been there and done this before. Sounds like he has it all down to a science too, even not returning her calls–making her wait. And I suspect since this is a matter of her heart, she deluding herself and has higher aspirations that he will leave his wife, even if she is denying this, and will suffer the fall in the end. I do agree that she does seem to be pursuing him, however, I think he is a practiced operator and is doing his own pursuing, he just seems experienced enough to be a bit more subtle. The letter she sent that he seems to have ignored was interesting to be sure. I am guessing she put her wants and needs to paper for him and the fact that he has seemingly ignored it recommends that later–when the affair dissolves and he moves on to another, he’ll deny ever receiving it and or remembering the contents of. She is also obviously not looking for advice, seems more intent on telling all, which smacks of her youth and immaturity. Which is too bad and so sad because I have a mind to think he is taking advantage of that fact. What ever her decision, I hope she keeps this in mind and protects her heart. Link to post Share on other sites
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Wow! You are one wise owl! THanks for your analysis of when an affair occurs. Link to post Share on other sites
mopar crazy Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I wonder why Mandy has posted in so long? I'm concerned about what has happened w/ her and this MM. I hope she took the advice we all tried so hard to give her and stop contacting him. Mandy, if you read this plz update us on how you are doing. Link to post Share on other sites
honeybee Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think she has quit posting because she was getting bashed too much. You can give all the advice you like, but people learn through experience. I know that I would not continue to post if I were being bashed and judged. We would all like to know what has progressed for you Mandy. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Some bashed her, some, like myself gave honest yet harsh advice. Mandy is tough, she took it and threw it back out there when pushed, she wasn't crying in the corner. The thing is, Mandy came here looking for help, she got it but never really took anybody's advice. She kept on putting herself out there, waiting for the train to run her over...Honestly, how many times can you say the same thing over and over again? For most, I think they figured she was going to do whatever she wanted no matter what we advice was given. I do hope she's okay though. And I'm pretty sure she'll come back if she needs this place again. Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I'd just like to say, after 800 posts and more good advice than she warranted, Mandy has left us dangling, which imo is worse than asking for advice in the first place God damn her, I feel so used ps: I'd also like to add, that I would like to apply for last place 800th post award position on hopefully, the last bloody post on this thread, hurray and a lol pps: There's been some very gifted advice on this thread from all the "old" posters, you know who you are, BUT it all seems rather pointless considering the old adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" oh well nvm. Over and OUT Link to post Share on other sites
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