Sister & brother-in-laws' sneaky plan to leech on my parents-in-laws' money

[CaraGrace]

It's bits of a long story... Some background first:  I'm a Hongkongese. In recent years, many of us are moving to the UK after the social turmoil in 2019. It's because HK was once a British colony before 1997, and now the UK Government has created a new visa for people from Hong Kong, which gives us a route to permanent settlement and British citizenship. The people who're moving to UK are mostly those who have a high risk of being arrested/becoming political prisoners, and then there're also those people who're very scared of the Chinese government's rule and the gloomy future of HK, and those who have children who want a better future for their next generation etc... 

Now, people involved in this story are:
My husband and I - in our 30s, no kids
his older sister and brother-in-law (sis & bro) - in their 40s, no kids
his mum and her bf* (mum & dad) - in their 60s, running their own convenience store business, not short of money and are very generous people
(*my husband's father has passed, his mum and her bf have been together for over 20 years but not married)

My husband and I don't have kids, but I have always wanted to move to Australia (I've lived there for a year before) even before what happened here in 2019. But my husband has made it clear that he doesn't want to leave his mum behind like what his uncles & aunts did (mum's siblings have all moved to Canada before 1997, they had the ability to move because they received proper education while mum, being the oldest among them, started working at a very young age to pay for their tuition). I appreciate my husband for being so respectful and loving to mum, and so I basically have given up the thought of moving to another country.

But recently, sis & bro suddenly said that they will move to the UK next year. They said they have friends who moved there and are living a good life. They said they will do warehouse jobs (which don't require English communication skill but just labour) like their friends and they're very confident that they can make a living and live well there too. It's the least that I'd ever expected because I don't think they have any important reason/necessity to leave: (1) they don't have kids, (2) they're not well-educated and they don't have proper English skills, (3) bro has undergone a big heart surgery 2 years ago and has to have follow-up checks regularly, he has since stop working because he said he cannot labour - and the problem here is if he won't be able to work in the UK (he would only be qualified for the labour jobs that he cannot do), then is he going to rely on sis to work in the warehouse and be the breadwinner like the past 2 years? But starting a new life in a foreign country isn't that easy, there're many uncertainties and you really need money... Besides, it'd be a problem for them to communicate with doctors and nurses about his medical condition, especially in case of emergency. 

Of course, their life, their choice. It's completely fine if they want to leave. But the biggest problem is, they have been very sneaky about it. They never openly talked about it during family gatherings. My husband first heard about it one month ago from mum (including the things that I wrote above), when Mum told him that some more weeks ago, sis asked her for money to move to the UK, while also specifically asked her not to tell my husband and dad about their migration plan. Mum had been keeping the secret for weeks, but couldn't help and told my husband because she's very frustrated by that: she said it made no sense that she has to give sis & bro financial support so that they can move to the UK, because they're grown-ups and should be responsible for their own decisions, and because she needs money for retirement. At that time, I was shocked only by the fact that they decided to move to the UK given that they don't have the need nor the ability, but I wasn't shocked that they asked mum for money, because I have long been suspecting bro to be that kind of person (eyeing on mum & dad's money), which I had once warned my husband but he said I was being sensitive. So now I said to my husband, "I told you so.", and he finally agreed with me and said that sis is probably influenced by bro - to have the audacity to ask mum for money like that.

Soon after that, I think mum told sis that she has told my husband about their migration plan, and so sis finally sent my husband a message to "break the new", but no more details into it, no discussion or so, more like just informing. My husband and I don't want to say anything about it given that they're not telling us anything themselves. Since my husband have told mum not to give anyone money no matter what and who they are (that's what he told her: "even if one day it's me who asked you for money, you don't give me any, even though I'm your son, period"), and we believe that mum is not stupid enough to really give them money, so we thought the case is closed. They can do whatever they want to do but just leave us (and mum & dad's money) alone! Few weeks later, mum told my husband that sis said they don't need her money anymore (should we say thank you?), because they're going to sell their apartment to cash out for their migration fund. Yes, they have an apartment, but for god knows what reason they didn't plan to sell it at the first place to get the money they need. I know they wanted to keep the apartment as a "backup plan" - like they can rent the apartment out and earn the rental income even after they moved to the UK, and perhaps when they couldn't adapt to/afford the life in the UK and need to come back, they'd still have to place to live. But the fact is, when they choose to keep the apartment, they don't have enough cash to migrate - and so their solution was to ask mum for money?!... I mean, you can't have it both ways! That's so selfish!!

Well I think I should thank them for at last taking the responsibility, accepting the fact that they can't have it both ways and sell their apartment. I was furious for their behaviour, but as the youngest here and not like "bonded by blood", I'm not in the position to say anything, not to say calling them out openly. So I guess case is closed as long as they're no longer asking mum for money. But then, last Friday when we had dinner together to celebrate Father's Day, bro kept asking dad when he's going to retire, and said that he had a great plan for them: buying a big house, living together (4 of them), so that they can take care of them after they retired... except that they never mention the word "UK". That's when I realised they have changed their plan from taking mum & dad's money, to taking mum & dad with them to the UK so that they can spend their retirement money (and buy that big house which they cannot afford themselves). What bro was doing here was trying to imperceptibly influence dad bit by bit, because dad is a very stubborn old man who cares about his convenience store business more than anything. Dad opens his store 365 days a year, never takes a break, never leaves his neigbourhood, never travels... The only places he goes to are his home and his store. It's a no brainer that it's hard to convince dad to retire, let alone moving to another country. And that's why sis & bro never mention to dad that they're moving to the UK and want to take him with them, because he will react negatively. So their first step is to convince dad to retire earlier by creating this perfect vision of a wonderful retirement life with their fancy words: big house, living with the daughter and son-in-law who will take care of them... We can see that dad really bought into this idea, because he thought they're talking about a retirement life HERE in HK! Mum told my husband that after the dinner, dad happily told her that he doesn't mind paying for that house (in HK) if they're going to live together, except that he still doesn't know what sis & bro are actually plotting.

It was quite a show to watch during the dinner, to see someone taking the low road without shame and presenting themselves as the loving daughter and son-in-law who wants to take care of the old folks after they retired. And I was furious because they never told us about their plan of taking mum & dad to the UK with them. I mean, it's ok if you see me as an outsider who's not in the position to know anything, but I think at least sis should tell and discuss with my husband? Cos that's my husband's mother too, you can't just take her away without telling him what kind of amazing plan you have in mind. Cos it sounds like a terrible plan to me: 4 of you are going to the UK together, but none of you can speak English, two are elderly and one cannot even work because of that "serious heart condition". It really doesn't look like they're going to take care of mum & dad, but instead, it's more like they're planning to leech on mum & dad's money to support their perfect life there.

My husband and I didn't expose them right away, because we're kind of perplexed about this whole new situation which mum seemed to be playing along with, and because we didn't want to ruin the dinner - if dad knows about the UK thing, he may fly into a tantrum! But later when my husband asked mum if she wanted to move to the UK with them (since she was playing along during the dinner), she said it's not like she really wanted to because she still hasn't considered it seriously, given the fact that she doesn't think dad would retire any time soon, plus their store just moved to a new location and they've spent quite a lot on renovation. So retirement isn't something that will happen shortly, and it's not like mum has said yes to their plan. Moving to the UK together is not what mum wants, it's just what they want - and they're only thinking about what they want and need. For the old folks who're already over 60, most of them really don't prefer to move to another country where they'd find it hard to fit it given the language barrier and cultural difference. But they never asked mum & dad whether they want to move to the UK, but are trying to talk them into it just because they need them to go with them. And moving to another country is such a big decision that I think they should openly and directly announce to, if not discuss with, the people involved (including those you want to take with, and those who're staying).

Sometimes I still try to convince myself that they're not like that. Maybe it's just me being sensitive, maybe they're really want to take care of mum & dad... But the fact that they're being so sneaky and coy about their plan tells it all. And I don't know what I can do to stop them. I don't want to see my in-laws living a lonely life in the UK (no friends and relatives there, cannot make new friends because of language barrier...), and pouring all their savings and retirement money into this just to make sis & bro's dream come true...

Edited June 12, 2023 by CaraGrace

[JTSW]

They will struggle regardless.

The UK has become a very expensive country.

The cost of living is ridiculous at the moment and will continue to get worse. 

[CaraGrace]

28 minutes ago, JTSW said:

They will struggle regardless.

The UK has become a very expensive country.

The cost of living is ridiculous at the moment and will continue to get worse. 

Yes I know, and that's why I said sis & bro don't have the ability to move and live there... I mean I know many HK people who moved there (including my friends) have to "move down the ladder" when it comes to jobs, meaning if you're having a well-paid management level job here in HK, you may mostly end up with an executive level job in the UK because you're not locals (and even if you have proper English skills you're still not as good as locals). You will not be paid as much, but the cost of living in the UK isn't low (actually it may be lower than HK and so many HK people who moved there still find it affordable, but the problem is you still have to deal with less job options and lower salary etc.. even though you're well-educated.)

So it'd be even harder for sis & bro who can't even communicate in English... they thought that they can do warehouse jobs like their friends, which don't require English skills. I've heard a lot of these stories, I think it may work if they settle with living a modest life in a modest house/flat, and just try to live in the neigbourhood where most HK people settled in (so that they don't have to speak English). But the problem now is they want to live in a big house, and they imagine the life to be wonderful and awesome - which will not happen if they're going there by themselves doing warehouse jobs (and likely only sis would be working because bro cannot work)... and so they need mum & dad to move there with them. That's their masterplan! I'm so sick of what they're doing! 40s grown-ups only plotting on how to leech on the old folks' money... I'm just so furious and I don't want to see them succeed in convincing mum & dad to go with them.

Edited June 12, 2023 by CaraGrace

[JTSW]

Honestly, you said mum doesn't want to go and they've spent allot on renovations for the new store locations.

You and husband just need to keep driving the negatives of moving into their head.

Maybe you should tell dad the truth about what they are planning.

[CaraGrace]

1 hour ago, JTSW said:

Honestly, you said mum doesn't want to go and they've spent allot on renovations for the new store locations.

You and husband just need to keep driving the negatives of moving into their head.

Maybe you should tell dad the truth about what they are planning.

Mum didn't say she doesn't want to go, but she didn't say she want to either. We don't know what she really wants, she's likely open to different options, but if dad is very reluctant to go, she'd have to stay with him. She thinks it's unlikely that dad would shut down the store and retire anytime soon, so she'd just wait and see... She said you never know - maybe he'd suddenly change his mind. I can't tell if mum wants to go or not, sometimes it does seem like she's open to the option (to explore other possibilities), but she's just always being tied down by dad's stubbornness and she's waiting for dad to change.. (she's been whining about not being able to have holidays and travel for so many years, she wants to retire, but dad's so obsessed with his store and works every day, and he doesn't let mum go/take rest either)... If that's the case (that she's not reluctant to go and wants that new life), then, I don't want to talk her out of what she actually wants to do.. And I'm not very close to mum & dad, and dad is a short-tempered person and no one really wants to mess with him... you need to be very skilful when talking to him, and I'm not the kind of person who's good at talking, unlike bro who's a sweet talker...

Problem is, since no one puts this topic on the table and discuss openly with honesty, we just don't know what each person really wants. I'm not in the position to do that, cos as I said I'm just the wife, not bonded by blood, sometimes I feel like an outsider, and I don't have a say in it (of course, bro is also just the son-in-law and he shouldn't be forcing his masterplan onto mum & dad)... And here's a fun fact, after my husband and I got married 3 years ago, sis & bro said that they wanted to add me to their family whatsapp chat group because I've joined them as a family now. But later, I found out that they didn't add me to their original chat group that already existed, but instead opened a new "fake" chat group to add everyone and me in it... So in their phones, they have two family chat groups, one with me and one without me. And there're certain things that they only said in their original group which I cannot see.. It's not like I'm very upset about it cos I didn't like these group chats in the first place, but to find out that when they said they wanted to include you, but in fact they're still excluding you by taking all the effort to create a fake chat group and pretended like they've included you... that really hurt a bit.. and I don't know why sis & bro would do that/thinking that I cannot be added to their original group because there're things that I don't have the right to know or what?... But again, bro is also just an in-law, he's not the blood-bonded son, if according to this logic of excluding me, then he should be excluded too... but it's just like he's controlling all these things... and he's been calling my husband's mother "mum" like she's his biological mother (I don't know what it's like in western culture but in our culture there's another way to call your mother-in-law and we normally don't use the word "mum" cos she's not really your mum...), but that's how he's been trying to create that seemingly close bond by acting like a biological son... 

For most of the things I know, I heard it from my husband. Sometimes I'd suggest my husband to say certain things to mum so that she won't get deceived by some fancy words, but my husband isn't really keen on interfering. He also said he often feels like being kept in the dark and doesn't know what sis & bro said to mum behind our back.. but still, he isn't keen on interfering.. But luckily, mum knows that sis & bro are eyeing on their money (she said it herself to my husband), at least she has a clear head and not that gulliable. But who knows what sis & bro would do when they level up their scheme? I just think they should be honest to us and tell us what they're planning, but I don't know how to make them do that...

Edited June 12, 2023 by CaraGrace

[glows]

Your husband’s mother and her boyfriend (the one you refer to as “dad”) appear very astute and able-minded. They’ve kept a business going this long and raised children. I doubt that his dad doesn’t know about the whole thing. They’re playing along to keep the peace. 

Are your husband and you able to support yourselves? Why do you care what his parents choose to do with their money? Long term care is important to a lot of people when they’re older so paying relatives or supporting relatives who do that isn’t such a far fetched idea. This is also basically the internal drama of every Asian family between generations - which child takes care of mum and dad plus money feuds in the process. Why become a cliche - it will eat you all up with resentment.

If you’re very concerned for their health and well-being as they age then offer for them to stay with your husband and you instead.

You’ve established that his sister and her husband are uneducated and have health problems - in other words not capable of caring for others. Avoid getting so involved and furious about your husband’s family. They’re older but fully capable of making their own decisions.

Keep in mind that your husband’s parents, ie your MIL, is likely egging on the situation by appearing to play dumb around her husband and seeking sympathy from you and your husband while probably agreeing with your sister in law and her husband! From what you say she’s just avoiding a confrontation which is very typical of these situations and not taking sides. This further adds to your husband’s frustration. They’re not your parents so it’s puzzling why you care so much but I think your husband is dragging you into the drama and getting angry and upset along the way. 

The only thing your husband and you can do is focus on what you both agree on and are willing to do such as inviting them to live with the both of you. Beyond that it’s not your money and try not to get dragged in by your husband’s anger and frustration. 

[CaraGrace]

23 hours ago, glows said:

Your husband’s mother and her boyfriend (the one you refer to as “dad”) appear very astute and able-minded. They’ve kept a business going this long and raised children. I doubt that his dad doesn’t know about the whole thing.

I agree that mum is astute (she said to my husband herself that she knows they're eyeing on their money etc.). But it's also true that she avoids taking side and confrontation, and she's also very indecisive. So it's almost impossible to ask her to firmly tell us whether or not she wants to go. She would probably say if dad goes, she'd go, otherwise she'd stay.

But I'd have to say Dad is not that smart... yes he runs his own business but it doesn't mean he's smart on other matters. His biggest problem, and also the weakness that sis & bro are playing with now, is his generosity when it comes to money and helping others. For example, every time we go to the restaurant for dinner, he tips every staff members there (shoving cash into their hands/pocket). And because of that, every time almost all staff members would come to our table pretending to serve us, but obviously we don't need 10 people serving us at one table, they just come for the tip! We have told him for years that he had to stop tipping everyone (unlike in the US, in our culture we don't really need to tip, because we're already billed a surcharge when we eat out), but he never changed because he doesn't want to "lose face". He's also very generous to the people in his neighbouring stores. He treats them expensive dinners all the time. And whenever someone helps him doing something (even though it's only a small favour), he would shove money to that person. And soon, many people just go to his store, offering help that he may not need, and he would still give them money. There was a time he lent around US$20,000 to a guy in the neighbourhood and that guy didn't repay the money for almost a year. Dad was furious and always whined about it in front of us, but he never directly confronted that guy...

He's the kind of person who thinks being generous would earn people's love and respect, not knowing that when he gives out his money like that, it only attracts people who see his weakness and take advantage of it. And what sis & bro are doing right now is just the same as all those people. From what you said I know you suspect that I'm eyeing on their money too because why do I care so much?! Believe it or not, I just don't like seeing people using these manipulative tactics to take advantage or even harm others. I don't like liars and manipulators. And I'm just worried that mum & dad may lose their savings and retirement money to people they think they can trust, when they should be able to live a comfortable retirement life with the money they have now (I haven't mentioned there's a cousin, who's an insurance agent, has made mum buy too many insurance and investment funds than she actually needs). 

And as I know, sis already got him buy an expensive watch and one diamond ring for her before... which is something my husband and I never do (we turned it down every time dad offer to buy us expensive gifts, we didn't even cash out the US$10,000 cheque he wrote us as our wedding gift because we thought it was too much and we'd never accept it - which I really doubt if sis & bro would reject if they're offer the same gifts).

[glows]

It’s his money and your MIL’s so best to refrain from thinking that you know better how to spend it. They may be comfortable enough and know they don’t need that much cash laying around. If they want to give gifts it’s also their prerogative. The issue seems to be you disagreeing with the way they spend money. It doesn’t sound like anyone is taking advantage of them. It may seem or sound like it when he complains but that’s also a common past time of some people, not to mention the elderly.

Your MIL has stayed with him for a reason and it may well be to do with his generosity of heart. What does she think about his spending? A person gets to a point in life and sometimes question what is the point of it all when you’re not able to share in what you have and while I don’t presume to know what they think, it’s not unusual. Again, their money to do as they wish.

You have different values and beliefs about how money is spent but this isn’t your parents, not your family. It’s your husband’s so let him deal with them. Why bring on so much stress for yourself? Stay focused on your own income and marriage. You haven’t answered whether you’d let them live with you. Is this then only a conversation about how they spend money?

[Ageless Wisdom23]

The bible Says "Money is the Root of All Evil...."  It sounds as though they have a game plan thought out and all you can do(Mainly your husband)Is talk to his Mum and her Husband about how he feels and to have Mum and Him keep her abreast of anything or ask for some good advice.  I am not sure if anyone is in charge of their financial part of Life but it might not be a bad idea for your husband to discuss that with Them, Should anything happen to to them.  They are at the age where it would certainly be a good idea to get that ball rolling.  If Mum and her Husband would agree to this.  You both have a kind heart and can see what is going on with the other two.  In  many Families, It happens a lot.  They have their own futures mapped out to benefit them.

[CaraGrace]

2 hours ago, glows said:

It’s his money and your MIL’s so best to refrain from thinking that you know better how to spend it. They may be comfortable enough and know they don’t need that much cash laying around. If they want to give gifts it’s also their prerogative. The issue seems to be you disagreeing with the way they spend money. It doesn’t sound like anyone is taking advantage of them. It may seem or sound like it when he complains but that’s also a common past time of some people, not to mention the elderly.

 

There have been so many examples when mum & dad whined about being fooled/taken advantage of after they gave people money. For example, there was a neighbour who offered to make lunch for them and then they decided to pay her (far too) generously. It was fine at the beginning but after a while that neighbour started to buy very low quality and cheap food and cook badly too. Then they started to complain to us that the lunch their neighbour cooked for them was rubbish, and they're furious because they paid her a lot... We told them to stop paying her to make lunch for them, because it's actually cheaper, easier and nicer to just buy lunch from nearby restaurants. But somehow they went on with that for months after months, because they didn't know how to say no, but yet they kept complaining about it to us all the time. These kinds of examples go on and on... like dad once paid a guy in the neighbourhood to help him fix the air-conditioners in his store, but he's paying so much higher than the market price. He thought he was being nice to the neighbour by offering him a job, but of course that guy did it badly because he's not a professional. Then dad just whined to us saying it wasn't worth it that he paid that guy than much... but still, he'd just keep doing that...

So it's not like how you think that they're happy spending their money like that. They're always upset and angry after spending money that way. But it's just that they never learned their lesson, and they don't know how to say no. They always think that by doing these things, they can connect and make friends in the neighbourhood and earn people's respect - when in fact these people only see them as fools. If you still think that the way they keep complaining is just their common past time, like it's their hobby to be fooled and then whine after being fooled... well than I have nothing to say. I can't make excuses for them as good as you do...

2 hours ago, glows said:

Your MIL has stayed with him for a reason and it may well be to do with his generosity of heart. What does she think about his spending? A person gets to a point in life and sometimes question what is the point of it all when you’re not able to share in what you have and while I don’t presume to know what they think, it’s not unusual. Again, their money to do as they wish.

 

Of course mum stay with him for a reason (I have no idea what it is), but it probably wouldn't be "his generosity of heart". Mum's always upset because dad never let her have a day off, never let her travel, and mum is actually doing most of the work at the store while dad being the one who's giving out orders - telling mum what to do and always yell at her. In recent years, mum started to have some health issues and when my husband and I take her to see the doctors and have check-ups (it's always us taking mum to the doctor by the way, sis & bro never do that), she's always in a hurry. She can't even stay for lunch with us after seeing the doctor because she doesn't want to be scolded by dad for going back to the store too late. She basically doesn't have freedom at all. Yes, sometimes dad buys her expensive gifts, but I think what mum really wants and needs is his generosity in giving her some freedom. 

Mum doesn't like the way he spend money (like shoving money to the staff in the restaurant, lending a large amount of money to the neighbour etc.), but she just cannot make him stop but he never listens and is very stubborn. He thinks he's always right. And your point about sharing, yes, if they like to share their money to people and they're happy about it, it's totally fine to me too, but problem is they're not happy most of time, like I said before. If they keep giving out money to people, and then keep whining to us that they think these people are taking advantage of them, then am I supposed to feel nothing and say to myself that "well they're not my parents, I don't have to give a fxxk", "well their money, they do what they wish"...? Maybe you think you don't give a fxxk about your in-laws, but I do, even though they're not my parents.

2 hours ago, glows said:

You haven’t answered whether you’d let them live with you. Is this then only a conversation about how they spend money?

I haven't got to that part, but here is my answer: No, my husband and I won't live with them (same as I'm not living with my own parents), because not everyone likes to live with their parents after having their own family. Maybe you do, but I don't. But that doesn't mean that I don't care about / take care of my parents and in-laws. I don't know why this concern you. Maybe you want to say sis & bro are good enough to want to live with them and take care of them, while my husband & I never offer to do so, so we should just shut up and let them take their money cos they're taking care of them. But you're clearly missing the point that sis & bro's real intention isn't taking care of them in the first place. Remember, before they came up with the idea of taking them to the UK with them, they asked mum for financial support so that they can move to the UK by themselves - mum & dad weren't not in their plan at the beginning. They also didn't give a damn about leaving mum & dad behind when they made the decision to move to the UK on their own. They basically left the responsbility of taking care of the old folks to my husband when they made that decision (w/o talking to my husband before and even asked mum not to tell him), and what's worse was they wanted mum to give them her retirement money which they'd use entirely on themselves to start their new life in the UK. It's only after mum refused to give them money that they suddenly changed their plan to taking mum & dad with them. I think it's not hard to see their true intention, and like I said mum actually sees that too. Maybe you don't see it that way from your angle, but mum's angle is the first person angle and she also thinks they're trying to leech on their money. The problem now is dad has no idea what's going on, and he's not smart enough to see what mum sees.

Again, my husband & I have no plan of living with our parents (both mine and my husband's), and our parents do not want to live with us. It's funny how you put your question as "if you'd let them live with you" like you're assuming all parents want their kids to live with them but they need their kid to let them... But our parents don't want to live with their kids, and using your words it's also quite common and not unusual. But we live not far away from each other (HK is a tiny city), it's like only 30min drive, and we see each other all the time. I don't have to "let them live with me" so that I can take care of them. And actually when sis & bro talked about their "great" plan, dad's first respond was he doesn't want to live together because he doesn't want conflicts. I think it's not very hard to understand that sometimes you can keep a closer and healthier relationship with your parents when you're not living under the same roof. When dad said he doesn't mind "paying for house if they're living together" - which I wrote previously, I was simplifying what he actually said. What he actually said was to pay for two separate apartments which are next to each other - we normally live in apartments rather than houses here in HK - because he thinks it's ok to live nearby but never live together under the same roof. So again, both "living together" & "moving to the UK" are not what mum & dad want, it's just what sis & bro need (for their money).

Edited June 13, 2023 by CaraGrace

[CaraGrace]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, glows said:

You’ve established that his sister and her husband are uneducated and have health problems - in other words not capable of caring for others. Avoid getting so involved and furious about your husband’s family. They’re older but fully capable of making their own decisions.

I won't be this furious if they're really "fully capable of making their own decisions". Like I said, their life, their choice. If they want to leave and think that they will be happier in the UK, I'll give them all my blessings, even though they will be leaving the full responsibility of taking care of the old folks entirely on my husband's shoulder (but I'm quite used to that, when my uncles and aunts moved to Australia before 1997, it's my mum and us taking care of grandma for all those 20+ years - we're those who stay and this is our life and responsibility). But problem is, they're making a decision that they're not capable of - they don't have enough money to migrate and so they asked mum for money, when being rejected they plot to take mum & dad (and their money) to the UK with them. They're dragging others into their decision, making the parents to help them make their dream come true. Can't you see my point and why I can't stand it?

 

On 6/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, glows said:

The only thing your husband and you can do is focus on what you both agree on and are willing to do such as inviting them to live with the both of you.

 

On 6/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, glows said:

If you’re very concerned for their health and well-being as they age then offer for them to stay with your husband and you instead.

The point is never whether any of us are going to live with them. They're in their 60s now and are capable of taking care of themselves, plus they don't want to live with us. Of course if their health deteriorate when they get older, and they need us to live with them to take care of them, we'll be there (cos we're not the one who're leaving now, can't you see that?). Please don't make it sound like sis & bro have the heart to invite them to live with them while we don't, and so I'm being ridiculous that I'm complaining sis & bro being aXXhXXX. The point is, they offer to live with them only because that's the only way they can take them (togther with their money) to the UK, because mum refused to give them her money. And if they really are that loving and respectful, they could have offered to buy that big house in HK to live with them, why UK? You're questioning why my husband and I are not inviting them to live with us, but you're not questioning why sis & bro are trying to convince them to move to the UK with them. And bro has that heart condition so bad that he can't even work and labour for the past 2 years (actually I think he's just being lazy), and suddenly now he offers to live with and take care of them - but he's not even able to take care of himself / make a living. Can't you who's the problem here? Who's actually in need of being taken care of?

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by CaraGrace

[CaraGrace]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, glows said:

Are your husband and you able to support yourselves? Why do you care what his parents choose to do with their money?

My husband and I are financially sound. We have our own apartment and car, we live comfortably and we don't have kids. We don't need their money. Like I said we didn't even cash out the US$10,000 cheque they gave us on our wedding. We'd rather they keep their money and use it on themselves, don't work so hard, live comfortably and enjoy their retirement life. If you think I care about his parents' money because I want to leech on them, you're so wrong. And it's funny that after reading what the sis & bro did, you think I'm actually the one who's eyeing on their money. Would you be mad if you see your parents being deceived by people they love and trust, and losing their lifetime savings and their comfortable retirement life because somehow the daughter and son-in-law suddenly have this dream of moving to another country - a dream that they're not capable of fulfilling by themselves and so they have to drag the parents into it to help them accomplish it..

Yes, they're not my parents, but they're my husband's parents, and I care about them just like I care about mine. We're not close, we're not blood-bonded, and yes sometimes I feel like an outsider, but that doesn't mean I don't give a f**k about them, especially when I see someone trying to manipulate and take advantage of them in the name of "love". That's just disgusting.

[MsJayne]

It sounds like your de facto father-in-law is no fool, so I would assume he's not someone who's easily manipulated. Ultimately, it's your husband's family and you'd be out of line if you challenged anyone in a confrontational way, only your husband should do that, (and he should, by the sound of it). It's a sad fact that many people do start eyeing off their parent's money as the parents age, but as long as they don't do anything illegal there's not a lot you can do about it. I don't think you should be worrying so much about this, I don't think your father-in-law will leave HK at such a late stage of his life, especially so given that he's never been a traveller. One thing you could do is just ask the question, in front of all family, "Do you want mum and dad to go with you because you'll need more money than you can earn?"  It's a valid question and if asked in a non-confrontational way it will put them on the spot. If they're offended by it you'll know you're correct about what they're up to. 

[CaraGrace]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:30 AM, MsJayne said:

One thing you could do is just ask the question, in front of all family, "Do you want mum and dad to go with you because you'll need more money than you can earn?"  It's a valid question and if asked in a non-confrontational way it will put them on the spot.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 6:30 AM, MsJayne said:

Ultimately, it's your husband's family and you'd be out of line if you challenged anyone in a confrontational way, only your husband should do that,

I actually wanted to ask in a more subtle way in front of the family, like, "Are you guys planning to move to the UK with mum and dad? What's the plan? Can we hear about it since no one has told us anything about it..." Since the thing was, they avoided talking about it in details to my husband & me, because apparently they didn't want us to ask questions and interfere. But like what you and many other commenters said, it's none of my business because it's my husband's family, not mine, I actually never said a word/challenged anyone of them on basically everything (not just this one). I have kept silent all the time for 10+ years no matter how ridiculous they're. But the thing is, my husband also never said a word cos he just didn't want to bother or he's too slow on the uptake to realise any problem (that's why sis & bro can get so unbridled, because they know exactly that both my husband and I wouldn't say a word no matter what they do)...

This time, even though I thought we couldn't keep silent anymore, I still talked with my husband about what I observed and what I wanted to ask them, because I respected him and I wouldn't say anything if he didn't agree with or want me to. So when he preferred me not to ask any question, I went on keep silent. And yea, like everyone of you said, cos it's his family, not mine, who am I to say anything? (like I'm a complete outsider even though I'm married into the family...) But imagine if this happens to you, your MIL & FIL should have enough money to have a comfortable retirement life, but then they lose everything because someone in the family took all their money and just went away, and then suddenly the responsibility and burden of fully supporting MIL & FIL - both financially and in all other ways - falls entirely on your husband. That would mean your living quality would be lowered too, because money that could have been spent on yourselves, our kid(s) etc... would then be used on supporting your MIL & FIL because they're broke, and probably sad & bitter & become emotionally dependent on you too... You can call me selfish for thinking this way, but after all it's not really none of my business if it affects my husband and me. 

There was a night I stayed up all night talking to my friends who've moved to the UK for some years. They're familiar with all the immigration policies, the life living as a immigrant there etc... And they told me that there's a possibility that sis & bro could spend all my MIL & FIL's money, but later on just ignore them and send them back to HK without trying to help them settle/adapt/get the permanent residency... These things happen, and there're many tricky things about the visa and getting the PR... My friends also said it's not normal/reasonable to plan buying a house immediately after they moved there (sis & bro actually already decided exactly which house they're going to buy at this stage, even before they've successfully applied the visa... it's like they planned to immigrate just because they wanted to buy that house...). My friends said most people usually rent during the first few years, and wouldn't buy until at least to be sure that they could adapt to the new environment, make a living, have the determination to stay, and most importantly be able to pass the harsh exam to get the PR... So my friends also thought what they're doing were very suspicious and strange. I got many useful info and opinions from my friends, and I didn't sleep for the whole night because of the different time zones... Then I talked again with my husband to let him know how serious a problem it actually was, that he should speak up even if he didn't want me to. That's when my husband finally realised how big the consequences can be, and he talked to my MIL privately. 

My MIL also later on (recently) realised how sis & bro have been trying to brainwash her. She said to my husband that she realised they're only eyeing on their money to help them immigrate because they knew they didn't have enough money and ability to do so. She also found out and told my husband that, that "friend" sis & bro said they have who would help them settle down in the UK, was actually the "Feng Shui Master" (like a Chinese fortune-teller) whom they've followed for many years. They actually believe and do whatever that Master says, like every time they moved to a new flat, they're actually following the Master whenever he moved (they've always lived in the same building or very close by). So when the Master said he's going to move to the UK and buy a house there, they wanted to follow him. The reason they already had the house picked at such a early stage was because the Master has already bought a house, and so they have to buy the house next to his. I think that's when MIL further believed in what my husband told her (which I told my husband) that this whole thing is a fraud and that she could never trust them.

So, case is basically closed. But I just want to say I've been right all along. And if I didn't care about it as much as I was, and just let them do whatever they want, and let my husband doing nothing, things could go very wrong... I don't think it's none of my business, because I would have to bear the consequences with my husband if they got scammed. That's it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by CaraGrace

[stillafool]

On 6/13/2023 at 12:01 PM, CaraGrace said:

Can't you see my point and why I can't stand it?

No, what I see is people here trying to give you advice and you being very rude to them.

[ShyViolet]

You are too concerned about other people's business.  The fact is that this doesn't actually concern you.  They are not exactly "elderly", they are in their 60's and they still work.  You are acting like they are helpless elderly people who can't make their own decisions.  That is far from the case.  Don't you have your own life to focus on?

[NuevoYorko]

From what I've managed to gather from your posts - besides your personal opinions - is that your inlaws are highly capable of making their own decisions about what to do with their money and how to conduct their lives as they age.

[MsJayne]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:05 PM, CaraGrace said:

You can call me selfish for thinking this way, but after all it's not really none of my business if it affects my husband and me. 

No, you're not being selfish, you see something concerning going on and you're rightly questioning it. I see you're in a difficult situation, but you still can't interfere without causing a load of tension. And I also can relate to your experience, one of my siblings has our 91 year old mother dependent on her, (it took her a few years to gain total control but she was like a dog with a bone), and I suspect that there will be some unpleasant twist to the division of the estate when our mother goes. C'est la vie, there's really nothing you, or I, can do to intervene or state our case because we can't tell other people what to think or what to do. I still say your FIL is sharper than you give him credit for, and I'd just leave it alone until such time as an official announcement is made that they're moving to the UK. 

[CaraGrace]

23 hours ago, MsJayne said:

No, you're not being selfish, you see something concerning going on and you're rightly questioning it. I see you're in a difficult situation, but you still can't interfere without causing a load of tension. And I also can relate to your experience, one of my siblings has our 91 year old mother dependent on her, (it took her a few years to gain total control but she was like a dog with a bone), and I suspect that there will be some unpleasant twist to the division of the estate when our mother goes. C'est la vie, there's really nothing you, or I, can do to intervene or state our case because we can't tell other people what to think or what to do. I still say your FIL is sharper than you give him credit for, and I'd just leave it alone until such time as an official announcement is made that they're moving to the UK. 

Sorry if I sounded rude in my reply, cos I was distressed how most commenters here couldn't see the problems: (1) sis & bro-in-law didn't genuinely want to take care of my MIL & FIL, they only tried to convince them to move to the UK after they failed in getting money from MIL - the money they needed to start the new life in the UK which they couldn't afford themselves; (2) MIL & FIL haven't been very wise with their money, and have been trusting people who prey on their generosity and gullibility (e.g. FIL tips at least USD10 to each staff member every time when they eat at the restaurant, i.e. tipping a total of at least USD100 every time, only because he thinks it "gives him face", but he would whine to us about having to tip too much while refusing to stop tipping just because he doesn't want to "lost face"; they kept paying around USD400 every day to a neighbor to make lunch for them, and whined to us about the cheap and unpalatable food but refused to stop paying the neighbor because they didn't want to "look bad"; FIL lent US$20,000 to a guy in the neighborhood whom he didn't know very well, and that guy didn't repay the money; MIL spending too much money buying too many insurance plans and investment funds than she needs from her niece who's an insurance agent, and till this day her niece is still trying to convince her to buy more...). These examples go on and on, they always do things that they whine and regret about later. They would keep grumbling to you that people deceive them and don't treat them well when they're being so kind to everyone, but yet refuse to stop doing all those things just because they didn't know how to say no and didn't want to be the "bad guy"... It has always annoyed and worried my husband and I to see them trusting unworthy people and throwing their money around like that... I've already written these examples in above, but it seems most people still thought they're smart and highly capable of making their own decisions... and so I was being unreasonable to worry about anything... But maybe that's just how hyper-sensitive and empathetic people function, and it's hard for most people to comprehend and understand why I care too much.

So thank you that you see the situation that I was in, and I'm sorry to hear that you have similar experience. I can understand that when your mum is 91 years old and she's dependent on the sibling you mentioned, it's very hard for you or anyone to intervene. But in my case, my husband can intervene, and he has the right to speak up and stop his sis & bro-in-law when they're obviously doing something wrong and harmful. Only if he speaks up or warns his mum about it, things can go very differently. So what made me so distressed was how my husband preferred to stay silent just to keep the peace, while I wasn't in the position to say or do anything. To me, it's like watching someone drown but not helping... it's a matter of principle, and about not staying silent when you see someone is trying to harm the others, whether or not you're bonded by blood with them, or if money is involved. I acted the way I was only because I don't want anyone (be it just a complete stranger) get hurt/harmed, and it bugs me when I can't do anything about it.

But luckily now my husband has finally talked to his mum, and his mum has then found out the problem too and made it clear to his sister that they're not going to move to the UK with them. That fact was, the building that MIL & FIL are living in now is part of an old area that the government is going to acquire for redevelopment. So in 1- 2 years' time, they will get the acquisition money offered by the government, and they would have to move out. So, sis & bro-in-law were actually eyeing on that large sum of money (talking about at least USD500,000). They wanted to get the money from MIL & FIL so that they can live a comfortable life in the UK that they couldn't afford, while MIL & FIL need all that money for buying/renting a new flat and for retirement - so, no one should take that money from them. Everything was actually so obvious. Even my friends in the UK can tell what's going on, and they warned me about more serious problems that I didn't think of and gave me many useful advice rather than telling me that it's none of my business, because they also thought no one should let people like sis & bro go on with their sneaky plan to harm their own family members... But now, MIL knows what's going on, and she has since stopped telling sis & bro-in-law anything important, including that redevelopment project (like how much they're going to get from the government, and where they're planning to move and buy the new flat etc...). She has since only telling all these things to my husband and asking for my husband's advice and help only. Although it makes my husband busy taking care of these things for his mum, he knows that it's better this way so that he can protect his mum from ill-intended people. And now I'm leaving all these matters to him, although he still asks for my opinion and advice (cos we're married, his problems are mine). 

[MsJayne]

12 hours ago, CaraGrace said:

It has always annoyed and worried my husband and I to see them trusting unworthy people and throwing their money around like that

OK, it's your husband's job to bring up the subject. I've only been to HK twice, so while familiar with the "keeping face" element of Chinese culture, I have no idea how deeply people hold that value. I imagine with older people it's still very important and it sounds like your FIL may get a little carried away with it. It does sound like this is going to turn into a big family disagreement no matter how it's handled. I think you mentioned in your original post that you've already made your in-laws aware of the (very) high cost of living in the UK. I have relatives there, in particular an elderly aunt, and it's often, literally, a choice between eating or turning on the heating in the dead of Winter. The other thing you should maybe look into is the nitty-gritty of the UK immigration laws regarding older people. I'm not sure about the UK, but here in Australia older persons can only gain permanent entry to the country if they can prove they have no living relatives in their country of origin. 

[basil67]

19 hours ago, CaraGrace said:

It has always annoyed and worried my husband and I to see them trusting unworthy people and throwing their money around like that... I've already written these examples in above, but it seems most people still thought they're smart and highly capable of making their own decisions... and so I was being unreasonable to worry about anything... But maybe that's just how hyper-sensitive and empathetic people function, and it's hard for most people to comprehend and understand why I care too much.

I think a lot of the posters can see your concerns.  And I think most posters would be concerned if they were in your shoes watching this all happen.  I can certainly understand why you feel so worried for them.  But no matter what's going on in his family and how much it affects you, the unwritten rule of dealing with inlaws dictates that only immediate family should raise delicate topics.   Thing is, very few families welcome unsolicitied criticisms of other family by an outsider.  

I'm pleased to see that your husband has finally spoken to his parents and they listened to him.  That's the way to do it.