Divorce Final but everything not exactly done

[viatori patuit]

Well, my dumpster fire of a marriage has been done about a year.  If you check my posting history you will see I was married to a person that I simply could not please. 

There were lots of things that we both did wrong, but there are some lingering issues for which I am seeking outside input.  As a participant in this process I do not always trust myself and given the blunt nature of feedback here I will likely find a solution in and among the postings.  This might be a fairly long post, and I am sorry if it is.  I am trying to organize things to make them more cogent.

I filed for separation in September of 2021.  I simply could not take the environment in which I lived. I would describe the marriage as toxic.  I hoped that a separation would give her pause.  I was happy to be separated and looked forward to a new dynamic with her be it staying married but separated or simply going our own ways.  

The day after I informed her of the filing she filed a police report accusing me of abuse and kidnapped my daughter and left the state.  She then proceeded to continuously accuse me of abuse throughout the process.  I filed an action to return my daughter, and in a month I had my daughter back and have had joint custody of her since that time.  All of the abuse claims were denied and found not credible.  Every time she has raised this issue she has lost.  She has raised the issue four times and had it denied four times.  I must stress, there is no shred of proof that abuse occurred.  Further, I categorically deny any and all allegations that I hit my daughter or anyone in the house.  I was furious about these allegations as they can create issues with my professional licenses (which was likely the reason she did it).  

About five months into the process I began to feel like perhaps I wasn't ready to become the person I had to be to deal with the issues.  In order to actually complete the process I would have to become a brutal and heartless person.  There is no reasoning with my ex wife.  There is no logic that can be employed to reach her.  She simply does what she wants and tries to force me to deal with her actions.  I knew this and I did not wish to become that person.  It is harmful for me to live like that as it steals my happiness.  

So, I suggest we try and reconcile.  We wouldn't stop the process, but we would get a separation rather than a divorce.  There is little difference where I live between the two, but symbolically we were still joined.  We tried and honestly it worked for about a month.  She was pleasant to me and her two kids from a previous marriage and I got along fine.  It went so well that we tried a vacation together.  That is where things started to go sideways.  She became just like she always was and we had a fight.  I fully admit that I was partially to blame I a apologized for my behavior before we returned home.  I left that vacation and did not speak to or see her for two weeks.  About that time she reached out to me.  We had another vacation scheduled for just the two of us.  It was to Thailand and it was set up as a very luxurious trip.  She assured me that we should go as we would have fun.  I was super wary of this as she has a history of instability.  I relented, and we went.  We had a blast.  The trip was awesome and I came home feeling like we might have turned a corner.  We actually signed the separation documents during the trip.  

Of course we all know what happens next.  She became the person she had always been.  I gave up and she moved on.  She bought another house and we now no longer speak.  She is still telling people about the false abuse claims and encouraging her kids to do the same.  Of course my daughter spends half her time with them.  

Now for the actual issues I was curious about.  As part of the separation I was adamant that she commit in writing to the fact that the abuse allegations were false.  She had to fully admit there was no abuse or we were going to trial.  She relented and the clause is in the separation agreement.  I did this intentionally.  I was not sure she would be able to be a healthy partner.  This clause allows me to sue her for defamation and other torts that are outside of family court.  I offered to speak with her about her culpability but she of course refused.  She wont admit to anything now and she refuses to be responsible for any of her actions.   I have already successfully sued her for damage to my house that was done while she lived here.  There was dog feces everywhere when I moved back in and the house itself was disgusting.  I have also already filed the defamation suit.  There are other issues as well and I could likely obtain full custody of my daughter should I wish to pursue that. 

My question is simple - I have an obstinate former spouse who I can hammer easily for legitimate claims and ruin her.  Or I could stop, and let this all go.  If I take option A she will be ruined.  If I take option b she would not change her behavior at all and I would continue to have to deal with issues similar to what I have now.

My approach is to force the issue now and deal with the nonsense all at once.  I see it as I would rather have a bad ending than never ending bad.  But, I am biased and in the process.  You as readers are not and maybe you see it different. 

So, do I continue with war?  Or do I stop?  I can assure you there is no in-between with her.  I tried that multiple times with her prior to posting this missive and she simply refuses to discuss anything.  This was both before and after I filed the actions.

 

 

[glows]

What does your lawyer advise? I wouldn’t engage- don’t keep trying to talk with her. The marriage is over. She’s moved out and bought a new home. Distance yourself emotionally and deal with each issue systematically with your lawyer. 

[stillafool]

I agree.  Get the divorce and stay away from her.  Why in the world do you continue to go on vacations when this needs to end.  I say talk to your attorney ASAP for advice on how to handle this. Forget about separation, go for divorce and end it.

[Wiseman2]

Please focus solely on the welfare and wellbeing of the children and a coparenting situation that is civil and follows the custody, visitation and child support agreement precisely.

Consider supervised visitation or at the very least, a neutral exchange situation for the children,so you can avoid each other, given the extreme volatility of the situation.

Talking about reconciling in the same breath as "destroying her for defamation" with cops and courts and kidnapping etc. sounds like you two should stay far apart from each other. 

Please focus on stable life for your children. Try to love them more than you hate her.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Wiseman2

[viatori patuit]

A few more fun things I left out.

First, I am operating Pro Se.  I graduate law school in august and most of the motions and arguments filed are simple.  I have been winning on my own and honestly it costs her a fair bit of money while just costing me time.  I do have two lawyers.  My family law lawyer (who ran my divorce) is still consulting.  I do all the work and she reviews it.  It costs me very little and she is awesome.

For the defamation case I have a lawyer and I do no work.  That case is tricky.  Think Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.  This is the case that has her worried.  The case could easily run into seven figures.  And based on the intentional nature of defamation the award cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.  

Both of my lawyers advise me to hammer her.  In fact, the only person stupid enough to even consider staying with her even remotely a good idea is me.  And I honestly do not know why.  The lingering desire to patch up a dumpster fire is stupid.  But it is not a logical thought, it is a feeling.  I spend my time doing things when that feeling occurs.   

I do focus on my daughter.  I follow the parenting plan to the letter and I never, ever say anything about her around my child.  The ex has filed some silly motions that have all failed so far.  They are predicated on presenting the idea that she is an abuse survivor.  I actually survived physical abuse.  Bruises, blood, broken bones, the works.  She knows this and the abuse has been independently confirmed to her by others.  So this is pretty close to my heart.  Accusing me of this is not only vile it crosses a line.  I fight all indications that she brings that there is some sort of abuse that occurred.  I will not give an inch.  She simply cannot get away with making up something like that.

Thank you for reinforcing the fact I need to stay away from her and the thought of reconciliation.  I need to hear that.  I do not understand why I cannot get that thought out of my head.  I assume it has to do with some sort of deep seeded issues related to abuse.  But I will leave that to the therapist.  

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by viatori patuit

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

Both of my lawyers advise me to hammer her. 

You certainly have a complicated divorce and need to keep a lid on her defamation.

But are your lawyers looking for a good emotional outcome or for a good financial outcome?  Surely, the more you try to hammer her, the more acrimonious it will get.  (and yes, I would also say this if the genders were reversed and she the one asking for advice)

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by basil67

[Lotsgoingon]

I don't trust your thinking. Holding a hard light against a psychopath is common sense.  On the other hand, you got to answer the real question: how likely is your ex to get violent against your or a child if you really push a hardline divorce on her? 

What is your lawyer recommending you do? And what's the middle ground?

Dude, I gotta say I lost you when you returned to her. You need to get some healing from being with an abusive spouse. That's the important point. That's should be your focus.

You need healing from the damage that allowed you to enter into a relationship with a psychopath. You had to have been damaged to enter that relationship.  And you need healing to undo the additional psychological damage that comes with marrying and negotiating with a psychopath. 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Lotsgoingon

[viatori patuit]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You certainly have a complicated divorce and need to keep a lid on her defamation.

But are your lawyers looking for a good emotional outcome or for a good financial outcome?  Surely, the more you try to hammer her, the more acrimonious it will get.  (and yes, I would also say this if the genders were reversed and she the one asking for advice)

 

It is complicated, but let me see if I can simplify it a bit.  I am a CPA and I am taking the bar next year to become a lawyer.  These allegations impact both licenses.  Technically the state bar could prohibit me from practicing with the allegations on my record.  There are also reports with the local school district which are false.  Essentially she has made this the reason why "she" filed for divorce.  Yes, she thinks she started this process.  Right now I am clearing my name.  The money is secondary.  If she would agree to clean up her mess and pay the legal fees I would drop the case.  But she won't do that.   As I said, she is certain she is an abuse survivor.  She would never agree that she lied now (even though she already did).  I am not dealing with a rational person here.  If I was, we wouldn't have divorced.  I really loved her but her verbal abuse simply became too much.  I have no alternatives other than proceed or quit.  There is nothin in-between.  I know this because I have tried repeatedly to get her to talk about things.  She refuses to talk at all until the suit is dismissed.  I think no one here would agree to that.

 

8 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I don't trust your thinking. Holding a hard light against a psychopath is common sense.  On the other hand, you got to answer the real question: how likely is your ex to get violent against your or a child if you really push a hardline divorce on her? 

What is your lawyer recommending you do? And what's the middle ground?

Dude, I gotta say I lost you when you returned to her. You need to get some healing from being with an abusive spouse. That's the important point. That's should be your focus.

You need healing from the damage that allowed you to enter into a relationship with a psychopath. You had to have been damaged to enter that relationship.  And you need healing to undo the additional psychological damage that comes with marrying and negotiating with a psychopath. 

 

 

As I said above, there is no middle ground.  I have tried repeatedly to negotiate a settlement.  She will accept nothing less than being allowed to declare herself an abuse survivor.  This cannot be allowed for the reasons stated above.  I have a call on Tuesday with her lawyer to see if we can work out a deal.  Unfortunately she ignores her lawyer and does what she wants.  I will keep trying to negotiate.  But I have to press on the defamation claim to protect the option to pursue it.

I agree with you returning was stupid.  If you look at this thread I say that every time.  I can't tell you why I did it or still consider it.  I can only tell you I will no longer entertain that feeling.  It still exists though.  That is weird indeed.

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

It is complicated, but let me see if I can simplify it a bit.  I am a CPA and I am taking the bar next year to become a lawyer.  These allegations impact both licenses.  Technically the state bar could prohibit me from practicing with the allegations on my record.  There are also reports with the local school district which are false.  Essentially she has made this the reason why "she" filed for divorce.  Yes, she thinks she started this process.  Right now I am clearing my name.  The money is secondary.  If she would agree to clean up her mess and pay the legal fees I would drop the case.  But she won't do that.   As I said, she is certain she is an abuse survivor.  She would never agree that she lied now (even though she already did).  I am not dealing with a rational person here.  If I was, we wouldn't have divorced.  I really loved her but her verbal abuse simply became too much.  I have no alternatives other than proceed or quit.  There is nothin in-between.  I know this because I have tried repeatedly to get her to talk about things.  She refuses to talk at all until the suit is dismissed.  I think no one here would agree to that.

 

Yes, this all makes sense.

Are your lawyers talking about financial hammering or emotional hammering?  What is the benefit of doing either?  

[basil67]

The allegations of abuse she's making.....Would I be wrong in guessing that some of her complaints are sexual in nature?    It's just that you've written many posts about sex and relationships and your very high libido where you express eyebrow raising views.  I suspect that she may indeed feel abused or bullied or coerced.   Further, you've been complaining about her not meeting your sexual needs since before you married her.   It's so very wrong to marry someone who already isn't meeting your libido and want them to further compromise.

For example, you wrote  "there have been some sexual issues. I have a very high libido. Like stupid high. I always want it. And I tend to like to push boundaries with people during sex. Not hard and fast boundaries (like no threesomes) but perhaps trying it somewhere new or trying something new with my partner. Of course she is always free to say no. I understand that. I am of the belief however that we both sort of need to agree on these things. If I want something and she doesn't, she absolutely doesn't have to do it. But I don't have to be happy about that. I figure if we communicated about things and worked through them we would reach a happy medium. That is the issue - she won't do that. If we discuss anything sexual it is a fight guaranteed. I am exhausted of this nonsense at this point". 

This reads like coersion. She's free to say no, but if she does, you strike a mood which makes her life unpleasant.  And I bet that the "happy medium" is her compromising to do things she doesn't enjoy to keep you happy.  I would bet that more than once she's done things with you sexually where she wasn't an enthusiastic participant. 

She may well have quite valid allegations

[viatori patuit]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Yes, this all makes sense.

Are your lawyers talking about financial hammering or emotional hammering?  What is the benefit of doing either?  

This is a binary situation.  Either I proceed or I allow the unfounded allegations.  There is no way to get this to stop without holding her to account for her actions.  The attorneys have both agreed that proceeding with a very aggressive case will be the best path to a lasting settlement.  

 

57 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The allegations of abuse she's making.....Would I be wrong in guessing that some of her complaints are sexual in nature?    

You would be wrong.  There is no allegation of sexual abuse in any manner.  You might want to check the date on that post.  I gave up on sex with her a LONG time ago.  I was staying around for our daughter.   

[basil67]

2 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

This is a binary situation.  Either I proceed or I allow the unfounded allegations.  There is no way to get this to stop without holding her to account for her actions.  The attorneys have both agreed that proceeding with a very aggressive case will be the best path to a lasting settlement.  

Surely an aggressive case will make her more angry and inclined to push back harder

2 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

You would be wrong.  There is no allegation of sexual abuse in any manner.  You might want to check the date on that post.  I gave up on sex with her a LONG time ago.  I was staying around for our daughter.   

That was just one post I found of many with a similar vibe...all about how to push women for more sex. 

What exactly is she alleging?

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

.  The attorneys have both agreed that proceeding with a very aggressive case will be the best path to a lasting settlement.  

This is your third divorce? And in addition to the divorce you're hoping for a defamation settlement? Does she make a lot more than you? Because it's possible you could win the case but you'll still have to try to collect. Is all this intended for her to retract her statement about abuse?  If it's never been substantiated, meaning you claim all her allegations were dismissed, how exactly does this still impact your state licensing boards?

[viatori patuit]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

Surely an aggressive case will make her more angry and inclined to push back harder

That was just one post I found of many with a similar vibe...all about how to push women for more sex. 

What exactly is she alleging?

She is angry, but she is always angry.  She does not even acknowledge me nor has she ever once I filed divorce.  Honestly there is no difference with her behavior no matter what I do.  The answer to your question is yes, it will make her more angry but no, she doesn't push back.  She just ignores and continues doing exactly what she pleases.

I respectfully disagree that the posts were how to "push a woman for more sex".  Those post were designed to figure out why the intimacy in my marriage was degrading.  I think now it is because she never really did love me.  I was means to an end for her, nothing more.  

The allegations are all of physical abuse.  like I scratched someone is an allegation.  She also alleged that called her names (verbal abuse).  She also alleges abuse of process (I have her served in public).  There is simply no proof to any of these allegations.  Honest the allegations do not rise to the level of criminal.

 

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

This is your third divorce? And in addition to the divorce you're hoping for a defamation settlement? Does she make a lot more than you? Because it's possible you could win the case but you'll still have to try to collect. Is all this intended for her to retract her statement about abuse?  If it's never been substantiated, meaning you claim all her allegations were dismissed, how exactly does this still impact your state licensing boards?

One has to disclose all allegations of crimes no matter where they came from or the degree of responsibility.  I also have to deal with the school board regarding my daughter where there are also unsubstantiated claims pending.  All of the claims have been found not credible.  She raised them numerous times and each and every time they were shot down.  All of that still goes on the application and could theoretically impact the fitness to practice.

As for the goal, the first one is to have a final document proving the baselessness of the allegations.  She has already admitted they are false yet she continues telling people that she is an abuse survivor.  This behavior must stop.

Second, Once I win the case I have a solid ability to shape the narrative.  There is a great deal of leverage that comes with a judgement for intentional torts.  While it is true that collecting on a case like this can be difficult, it can be done.  I can also decide that I will allow or not allow things.  Finally, the judgement can be maintained forever.  Even if I only force legal fees I can still hold the judgement over her head to ensure compliance with any agreement.  I would rather not do any of these things, but she already has shown that she will not respect the judgement of the court.

 

[viatori patuit]

I forgot.  Another abuse allegation stems from my assistance to law enforcement.  Its a bit technical, but I have some knowledge around telephone numbers and how to track their owners.  I worked in telecom over a decade ago and my name is still attached to some of the numbers that I provisioned.  I often get calls from police looking to find a person who is a comitting a crime using those numbers.  I help the police even though I have no obligation to do so.  

One of the people caught by my assistance "swatted" me.  The police showed up and she made a huge deal about the resulting conversation.  I happened to be traveling when that happened so they had to call me and make sure everything is ok.

 

[viatori patuit]

I just happened back in here on a whim.  One thing that is interesting is re-reading the responses.  Man, I missed so much the first time I read them.  I am glad I came back an re-read them now.