Was I dating a man who preferred his parents? Some very unusual relationship dynamics.

[ExpatInItaly]

10 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

I have that soft spot that just really wants to believe that the person I saw in them will finally come out and shine.

The thing is, you don't know who that person even is. If I had to guess, you're projecting and waiting for the person you want them to be to come out and shine. You're forumating ideas and opinions based on...what, exactly? Some brief interactions? That is just nowhere near enough to understand who it is you're waiting on to shine. It sounds like you're engaging in some idealizing and wishful thinking with a statement like that. 

 

[Samantha11]

13 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

The thing is, you don't know who that person even is. If I had to guess, you're projecting and waiting for the person you want them to be to come out and shine. You're forumating ideas and opinions based on...what, exactly? Some brief interactions? That is just nowhere near enough to understand who it is you're waiting on to shine. It sounds like you're engaging in some idealizing and wishful thinking with a statement like that. 

 

True, I don't know who they are. I don't have some idea about who they are specifically as a person. I don't have some mold I am expecting them to fit into. I just tend to see this general goodness in them that suggests they are a good person in some way that I am yet unaware of, and I think that that general goodness will show in the way they treat me and through whatever specific individuality that they have which I am still to learn about. Maybe we won't match as individuals, but I just hope that the goodness will still be there, if that makes sense. So when the red flags start emerging, like lying or gaslighting, I find it hard to believe, even though I see the red flags clearly. I feel like I am being wrong to not give them more of a chance. I find it hard to give up on people, especially when I see some intangible, unexplainable "goodness" in them. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Samantha11

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, Samantha11 said:

I just tend to see this general goodness in them

Again, based on what? 

[Samantha11]

6 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Again, based on what? 

Just that intangible quality that when you meet someone, you get a sense. You know, that gut instinct that feels rather than thinks. It is nothing logical, so I cannot give a logical answer, because it is not formed by some mental process. It is just an intuition, a feeling, a sense. Like how when dogs meet a person they often know if that person is good or not, based not on logic, but sense. Now granted, I am not not saying my sense is right. I could be entirely wrong, and I get that. Or maybe I just sense their core, which is clearly different than their personality and the choices they make in life. But that is what it is based on. 

[Alpacalia]

4 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

Just that intangible quality that when you meet someone, you get a sense. You know, that gut instinct that feels rather than thinks. It is nothing logical, so I cannot give a logical answer, because it is not formed by some mental process. It is just an intuition, a feeling, a sense. Like how when dogs meet a person they often know if that person is good or not, based not on logic, but sense. Now granted, I am not not saying my sense is right. I could be entirely wrong, and I get that. Or maybe I just sense their core, which is clearly different than their personality and the choices they make in life. But that is what it is based on. 

I know what you mean. That's called.... having a good sense of smell. What does he smell like? Does he smell like an old gym sock?

[ExpatInItaly]

3 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

Just that intangible quality that when you meet someone, you get a sense.

This is why I asked. 

It seems that your sense is not that accurate. Look how this guy turned out, and it appears you've struggled with this in the past too. You want someone to be good (as we all do) and I'm not saying this particular guy is a terrible person, but your picker is apparently off. You're relying too much on vague and intangibe notions, and not enough on the practical. You evidently get an idea of "goodness" in your head and hang on way too tightly to that when reality is tapping you on the shoulder, desperately trying to show you that your perception of the person is flawed. 

This isn't to say we should not try to see the good in people. Rather, I'm saying that you are placing way too much significance on very limited information and interactions, without having any real clue whether the guy in front of you is truly decent or not. You can't know that about someone so early, as evdienced by this strange man you encountered. You were not very correct in your assessment of his goodness, were you? 

Consider that if he is indeed married or has a girlfriend, well, your "goodness"-dectector badly needs a tune-up. That would be the opposite of being a good person. 

I think it's time to reconsider how you approach men and dating them when you don't really know them.  You are getting too tangled up in your mind about it. 

[stillafool]

I'm curious why you were the one doing all of the traveliing to see him and why you never asked him to travel to see you?  Also why you paid for a months rent on a hotel so you could be near him and why he didn't at least go half if that was a joint decision?  I too think he's got a gf or a wife.

[Samantha11]

13 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

What a mess of needs and deflections on his end.

Aye yai yai. Your assessment of the situation is spot on, so you already know the red flags here.

He pushes you for sex and then brushes it off as a misunderstanding, and always wanting to end the dates early.

So, there was this one big red flag that really caught my attention. He was all like, "Let's make plans super fast! Stay in town for a whole month!" And get this, he totally knew you weren't local. It's like he was trying to rope you into something without dealing with the consequences. Seriously, chat with your pals and fam about this. That gut feeling you got? It's telling you something important. When someone's values do a 180 in no time, it's a sign they might not be all there, you know?

He got way too comfy in his own little world and got freaked out by any kind of change. So, he coped by trying to control you and everything else. He never really faced up to stuff, just dodged your genuine questions. And get this, he didn't stick to what he said, like changing his mind about waiting for marriage. All talk, zero action—huge red flag right there. Plus, he tried to shut you up by bringing up your health issues. Classic manipulation move.

The big takeaway is to spot controlling vibes and trust your gut in situations like these. If things feel off, give it a closer look and trust your instincts. Don't brush it aside; it's smarter to tackle it early. Sometimes we get swept up and miss the cues, but if something's fishy, pump the brakes to figure it out. Looking back, that rush for sex and a quickie marriage after only a few dates should've raised alarm bells right from the start.

Dang, that's a tough situation to be in. Sorry you had to deal with that. Here's a takeaway: watch how you handle things. Seemed like you were all in to make it work, which led to kinda ignoring those red flags or brushing 'em off as "misunderstandings" because you were so into the guy. And that whole trying to speed things up? Not the best call. Take it as a personal caution sign for the future. People tend to stick to their patterns, so you could've dodged this mess by standing firm right from the start, not settling for this "almost relationship."

Also, think about it this way—if his fam was as important to him as you, it'd be a two-way street, right? If it had been the case that his family was just as important to him as you, you would've had to come to terms with that, maybe pitching in for family gatherings and gatherings in general. It's a two-way street, know what I mean? 

Maybe it's time to set some ground rules for relationships. Do a bit of research, sounds like your style. That way, you can spot those avoidable red flags way earlier. Create your own list of red flags (like rushing, for example) and set up clear boundaries. This'll help you tackle or step away from situations like this with a clear head and determination. Hopefully!

Thank you for your reply Alpacalia. It is a really good one, with so much good advice and information. I appreciate you taking the time to write it, and share your thoughts.

I actually was the one who chose to stay in town for a whole month, he did not ask me to. In fact, he acted as though he was unaware I was lingering in town for him, which I find surprising since he knew I was traveling through on a road trip from out of town, he knew where I was from, and when I had to leave to go back to my town for two weeks, he did not want me to leave but was happy when I said I would come back. When I returned I even told him I had a month, so I am not sure why he was confused. But he definitely knew I was not local.

I think you are so right about trusting your gut and not ignoring the red flags, I can spot them, I am just terrible at facing them. I will force myself to face them eventually, because I do respect myself and refuse to end up stuck, but I don't face them quick enough. I tend to let it go just too long. That is something I really wish I was better with, and a big part of why I posted here. To get feedback so that I can learn from this situation for the future when to cut things off and trust myself that I am reading the red flags right. 

You said, "People tend to stick to their patterns, so you could've dodged this mess by standing firm right from the start, not settling for this "almost relationship." " Do you think I should have ended it when I saw that, after three dates, his pattern was to get back to his family? I did try to end it then, but he insisted he would fix that and was very apologetic. Should I still have ended it? Thank you again!

[Samantha11]

2 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I'm curious why you were the one doing all of the traveliing to see him and why you never asked him to travel to see you?  Also why you paid for a months rent on a hotel so you could be near him and why he didn't at least go half if that was a joint decision?  I too think he's got a gf or a wife.

I was traveling this summer to begin with, so I was going to be away for the summer anyways. If I had left, I would have been on the road for the summer, so I figured I would just linger in his town and see if there was anything there. When I did go back to my hometown though, it was right at the same time he went to a town about an hour away for vacation with some of his immediate family. He offered to come and see me for one of the days, but I felt their trip was so short to begin with, and we would see each other soon, that I encouraged him to have fun with them and we would see each other when I got back. I never thought to ask him to pay, I felt it was too early in the relationship, and that I was the one making the choice to linger.

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, Samantha11 said:

I never thought to ask him to pay, I felt it was too early in the relationship, and that I was the one making the choice to linger.

I see and agree that if it was your choice to linger you were right to pay.  Was he excited that you were going to be there for an entire month?  It seems he should have spent more time with you when you were there for the month.

[Samantha11]

15 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This is why I asked. 

It seems that your sense is not that accurate. Look how this guy turned out, and it appears you've struggled with this in the past too. You want someone to be good (as we all do) and I'm not saying this particular guy is a terrible person, but your picker is apparently off. You're relying too much on vague and intangibe notions, and not enough on the practical. You evidently get an idea of "goodness" in your head and hang on way too tightly to that when reality is tapping you on the shoulder, desperately trying to show you that your perception of the person is flawed. 

This isn't to say we should not try to see the good in people. Rather, I'm saying that you are placing way too much significance on very limited information and interactions, without having any real clue whether the guy in front of you is truly decent or not. You can't know that about someone so early, as evdienced by this strange man you encountered. You were not very correct in your assessment of his goodness, were you? 

Consider that if he is indeed married or has a girlfriend, well, your "goodness"-dectector badly needs a tune-up. That would be the opposite of being a good person. 

I think it's time to reconsider how you approach men and dating them when you don't really know them.  You are getting too tangled up in your mind about it. 

I agree. You know, I do think what I "sense" is something, like that innate goodness in humanity that every person has. For whatever reason, every now and then that innate goodness just "shows" itself (or I sense it) particularly with one person, but like you said, I just hang onto that too tightly, and place too much significance on it even when their behaviors and actions are clearly not matching that goodness, and that is what I wish I could stop doing. 

I heard once that this tends to be evident in people who grew up in toxic families, where they were always hanging on, hoping their parent(s) would suddenly permanently become the good parent that they can sometimes be, but far too often are not.

I definitely get too tangled up in my mind about it.

If anyone has suggestions on how to stop getting so tangled up, please feel free to share. ExpatInItaly has made some very good points and insight that helps. Thank you Expat.  

[Samantha11]

18 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I see and agree that if it was your choice to linger you were right to pay.  Was he excited that you were going to be there for an entire month?  It seems he should have spent more time with you when you were there for the month.

He was very sad when I had to leave, but seemed very happy and hopeful when I said I would come back. We had a wonderful date when I first came back, but then he got sick. The dates just sparsed out from there, so that we only saw each other three times in the whole month. I did not say anything at first, but when I did point it out to him, he claimed that he felt I should have been asking him on dates. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Samantha11

[ExpatInItaly]

How old is this man, out of curiosity? 

[Samantha11]

Just now, ExpatInItaly said:

How old is this man, out of curiosity? 

He is in his 40s. 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, Samantha11 said:

He is in his 40s. 

This is why I tend to think he's not single, rather than emotionally or developmentally underdeveloped. 

If it were the latter, at his age, you likely would have noticed other signs that he is different, so to speak. I don't think the unusual behaviour would have been limited to his supposedly close relationship with his family. It probably would have manifested in other ways as well, being more noticeable for a middle-aged man. 

More of the red flags point towards him having another woman in his life, I believe. 

[Samantha11]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This is why I tend to think he's not single, rather than emotionally or developmentally underdeveloped. 

If it were the latter, at his age, you likely would have noticed other signs that he is different, so to speak. I don't think the unusual behaviour would have been limited to his supposedly close relationship with his family. It probably would have manifested in other ways as well, being more noticeable for a middle-aged man. 

More of the red flags point towards him having another woman in his life, I believe. 

I definitely noticed signs he was different. I think I mentioned at one point that he was the shyest person I ever dated. He spent our first few dates sitting facing away from me, with his arms crossed, his head tilted away, and his eyes looking away. I realized then that most women would take this as him being a rude jerk, and he even told me on his first date that dates usually do not go well for him, and that women yell at him and he does not know why. I am guessing that is probably a part of the why.

But I just took it as someone very, very, very unusually shy, who just needed a chance to get to know someone and they would relax and begin to show themself. This did indeed happen, after a number of dates, but he was still very shy and even awkward at times. I don't want to go to much into his personal things that he told me, but I do know that he struggles with certain interior concerns, if I can put it that way.

In a weird way he reminded me of Matthew MacFadyen, or Mr. Darcy, in the 2005 version of Pride and Prejudice. How at first he seems so cold and aloof, and very awkward, and even admits he has poor social skills, but has that sweet look in his eye where you just know there is something good underneath that everyone is missing. 

[ExpatInItaly]

I don't think his shyness points to him being emotionally stunted in some way. 

This is much more likely it: 

3 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

I realized then that most women would take this as him being a rude jerk

And women yell at him on first dates? Come on. You didn't buy that, did you? Does that really sound plausible?  I don't buy for a moment women are acutally yelling at him on first dates. Leaving? Sure. Not accepting another date? Yup. Asking him what's up? Yeah. Yelling? Don't think so. 

I think this guy fed you all kinds of stories because he knows he's a bit of a d-bag and wanted to find a way to keep you around as long as it suited him. The more you write, the more I think you got played, sis. He knew what was up, and wanted to see if you saw through the BS. You didn't, until he was done with al of it. 

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Samantha11 said:

You said, "People tend to stick to their patterns, so you could've dodged this mess by standing firm right from the start, not settling for this "almost relationship." " Do you think I should have ended it when I saw that, after three dates, his pattern was to get back to his family? I did try to end it then, but he insisted he would fix that and was very apologetic. Should I still have ended it? Thank you again!

I think so. It's hard, I get it, I had to step away from something that felt right because of the signs I was getting and it wasn't an easy decision. Oh my goodness it was hard. If you are convinced he wasn't going to fix his pattern or if the guilt and apology made you stay longer than you should have then yes, it's best to end it. Patterns like these don't change overnight. It's better to leave it and move on with better quality relationships in the future. Because when you get stuck in this cycle, it's hard to break out of it without hurting yourself more in the process. Then it takes double the amount of effort to move on because it's not easy unpacking and relearning to love yourself and trust someone else again.

And just a sidebar on the sensing the good in people. I think that's a wonderful quality to have. With the caveat that measuring or quantifying intuition is challenging due to its nature as a visceral, instinctual sensation arising within an individual.

It emerges devoid of extensive cognitive analysis, often intertwined with emotional influences. Primarily rooted in prior encounters, intuition blends with present perceptions. However, these perceptions are often molded by the subliminal signals captured by the subconscious, which frequently stem from historical patterns and associations.

So when you are saying that you feel “something” is wrong or that something does not ‘feel’ right, it is likely that it is the release of a pre-existing perception. The most reliable way of measuring these visceral or instinctual reactions is through direct feedback from the individual. Or in this case, this man. Of course, things can guide you like recognition of bad behavior, body language, gestures, tone of voice, and record of previous occurrences. But you can't suggest that this person is "good" or "bad" for sure unless he provides you with feedback of what he did and how it made him feel and in turn how it felt to you.

And he's deflected on providing you these details. 

[Samantha11]

37 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I don't think his shyness points to him being emotionally stunted in some way. 

This is much more likely it: 

And women yell at him on first dates? Come on. You didn't buy that, did you? Does that really sound plausible?  I don't buy for a moment women are acutally yelling at him on first dates. Leaving? Sure. Not accepting another date? Yup. Asking him what's up? Yeah. Yelling? Don't think so. 

I think this guy fed you all kinds of stories because he knows he's a bit of a d-bag and wanted to find a way to keep you around as long as it suited him. The more you write, the more I think you got played, sis. He knew what was up, and wanted to see if you saw through the BS. You didn't, until he was done with al of it. 

Thanks Expat. You know, I see your point, and I think you may be right. I am just trying to process how telling someone all the most awkward things about himself was a strategy to play someone with? I mean, usually players tell suave stories, not stories that make themselves look totally awkward. I am trying to figure out how he felt that was a strategy? I even talked with my mom about it, and she felt it could have been a strategy, but she even thought it was a strange one and could not make sense of it. 

Neither of us could figure out how telling me he never had sex, never even kissed anyone, never got past a first date, never had anyone besides his family stick around to be his friend or girlfriend, hangs out only with his family in all their spare time, had a girl ask him to the prom in High School but was too afraid to go, suffers from anxiety, gets sad a lot... we just could not figure out how that would be a strategy any one would want to use? When he kissed me for the first time, it really was like someone kissing for the first time. I felt compelled to do something small to make him feel better, as it was like the first kiss I ever gave a guy when I was very young, and felt embarrassed afterwards for not knowing what I was doing. 

I mean, you might very well be right. I am just trying to understand why someone would choose such a strange strategy?

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

I am trying to figure out how he felt that was a strategy?

Some men play on womens sympathy.  It worked.  

[Samantha11]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

Some men play on womens sympathy.  It worked.  

True. But even if it makes them look so awkward? 

[ExpatInItaly]

4 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

why someone would choose such a strange strategy?

Because it works:

1 hour ago, Samantha11 said:

he reminded me of Matthew MacFadyen, or Mr. Darcy, in the 2005 version of Pride and Prejudice. How at first he seems so cold and aloof, and very awkward, and even admits he has poor social skills, but has that sweet look in his eye where you just know there is something good underneath that everyone is missing.

It worked like a charm on you. It's a lot less obvious that being a typical arrogant tool, and it's very effective with people who want to give the benefit of the doubt and find the "awkwardness" endearing. 

And all this?

6 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

telling me he never had sex, never even kissed anyone, never got past a first date, never had anyone besides his family stick around to be his friend or girlfriend, hangs out only with his family in all their spare time, had a girl ask him to the prom in High School but was too afraid to go, suffers from anxiety, gets sad a lot... we just could not figure out how that would be a strategy any one would want to use?

You have no idea if any of that was true. It probably wasn't. But it still worked:

7 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

When he kissed me for the first time, it really was like someone kissing for the first time. I felt compelled to do something small to make him feel better,

 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, Samantha11 said:

But even if it makes them look so awkward? 

Yup, because it works to their advantage. Like I said, playing up the "awkward" was remarkably effective in your case. 

[stillafool]

25 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

True. But even if it makes them look so awkward? 

Yes, all the better because then you think he's sincere.  It worked like a charm.

[stillafool]

35 minutes ago, Samantha11 said:

Neither of us could figure out how telling me he never had sex, never even kissed anyone, never got past a first date,

This part has worked even back when I was in HS.  You'd be surprised how many girls put out to guys like this out of pure sympathy.