Girlfriend overstepped boundaries.

[beeg_yoshi]

Hi All

I would like some insight on this.

My girlfriend (29F) and I (30M) have a monogam-ish relationship. We are together for a bit more than 10 months and we are long distance internationally (5-6h). We are not open but not totally exclusive either. We communicate very openly about our needs and grant each other certain freedoms if both are on the same page about it and it has been discussed beforehand. For example we went to a strip club together and there were occasions where she and her female friends went out and kissed each other a few times. At one point, this occurred while I was present as well but again, we discussed it beforehand, we both said we are fine with it and proceeded. I kissed one of her female friends multiple times as well while the evening was ongoing. Everything was fine up until recently.

Last weekend, she went out with a few people of her social circle and they drove to the party with their car. Yesterday, she told me she has something to tell me and proceeded to confess that a male friend of hers initiated a kiss when they said goodbye in the car before dropping him off at his place. She told me he was sitting in the middle of the back seat, she turned around to him to give him a hug, they hugged and then he initiated the kiss. She said they kissed for approx. 2 seconds on the lips. He kissed both her and a female friend of theirs which was sitting in the passenger seat. He is in an open marriage and both girls told his wife but she said she was fine with it. My girlfriend told the guy the next day that this is not the type of relationship she and I are having and it was a boundary crossed. He apologized to her.

She also told me she does not remember who he kissed first which I find hard to believe. She said she didn't really saw it coming but to me this wouldn't make sense if she was kissed after the female friend. I tried to be understanding and I know that sometimes women can freeze in moments like this and just go along but yeah idk.. 2 seconds is quite a while to realize what's going on and that it's inappropriate. I have also met this guy before and found him to be super chill and not a threat at all. She told me in the past that she has a hard time saying no to people and in general doesn't want to cause other people trouble but I feel like when it comes to relationship boundaries this cannot be an excuse. I need to be able to trust her that she acts within the terms of our relationship and that stuff like this doesn't happen. Sexual assault and the further is of course a different topic. I feel like the way she described the situation, she should've been able to avoid the kiss. Like turning away or moving back.

I then said something along the lines of that I'm really not happy to hear something like this and considering she was driving she must've been sober enough that being drunk and maybe having a slow reaction time cannot be a reason for it etc. It was then revealed to me that apparently she was well above the legal limit of driving, so she said herself, which made me even more angrier than the kiss. I told her that I cannot believe my ears. I never could've imagined her doing something irresponsible like this. I scolded her pretty heavily, she promised me she will never do it again, that she regrets it very much and knows how wrong it was.

Although she sounded very sincere and apologetic to me, when I berated her about the topic and how bad of a mistake something like this is she still got a bit defensive, which is a habit of hers, and said she was driving slow, it was late at night with no one in the road etc. etc. I told her there is literally nothing she could say to me to justify this or make it less bad of a mistake. I also told her that not only I expect her to never do it herself again, I also expect her to not even put herself into such a situation to begin with where either she has to drive herself or has to get into a friend's car who is drunk to be driven home. She then said she will do that but might need help along the way, aka texting me before such situations could arise to put pressure on her that it wouldn't happen. I told her no way. This is not a process to go through. This needs to happen immediately. Not driving drunk, not getting into cars which are driven by drunk people should be something super natural. I told her she needs to be able to do this on her own. She then got quiet and didn't say much anymore. She also cried and told me she is sorry multiple times for the kiss and that she values our relationship very much.

I'm a bit torn about this. In one night she overstepped a relationship boundary of ours, which I think I need to call it for what it was, she cheated, and violated a big moral mindset of mine. Fearing my reaction and because she had an important presentation at work on Monday, she waited a whole week to tell me too. I'm also worried about her social circle regarding both issues. She is surrounded by very openminded people. We're talking two open marriages and her single female friend which makes me worried regarding sexual advances. The second point is that both the female and male friend got into the car with her and didn't stop her from driving, which to me shows that they're just as irresponsible as her. Mind you this guy is also a father and has a child at home. The car they're driving is a broken shoebox with a 200k+ kilometers lifespan. I highly doubt this car has airbags in the backseat where he was sitting.

All in all, I'm just super disappointed. We talked for an hour yesterday and we'll talk again tomorrow. I'm a very understanding person and believe in second chances but my trust is quite a bit broken. I don't want to make rash decisions and believe this is possible to work out. She has also forgiven me in the past for mistakes I made although cheating was never something I did.

Would really appreciate some other thoughts and opinions about this.

Thanks!

[basil67]

The 'monogom-ish' rules the two of you have really aren't feasable in a LDR when it's not convenient for one of you to lean over and instantly see how your partner feels.  Either be monogamous or open and drop the hazy middle.  And I agree that drunk driving is worse than a 2 second kiss.   However, her being defensive when you berate her is not a "habit" of hers.  Instead, it's what a natural instinct when we feel attacked.  Berating someone is never an appropriate way to respectfully deal with a relationship problem

Prior to this incident, what plans do the two of you have for closing the distance between you. Clearly it's not sustainable it's current form.

[beeg_yoshi]

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it. I see your points. Being monogam-ish while doing long distance is tricky. I felt like up until now it has worked, as she would reach out to ask for my consent before going out with her female friends in that kind of way. This happened once so far, the second time I was present myself as described in my original post and a third time hasn't happened yet. It's not a super regular occurrence.

Regarding the berating, I was just trying to make sure that I get it really through to her that what she did is unacceptable because she put other people's life at risk. I agree that berating usually is the wrong approach. When I said becoming defensive is a habit of hers, I meant that it also happens in situations when I'm not berating her, which is the great great majority. She has told me herself that she is aware of this bad habit and that it goes hand in hand with her being unable to apologize when I hold her accountable for her mistakes.

Currently, there are no plans to close the distance from either side. She moved countries almost a year ago for her career. We met approx. 1.5 months before the move but at this point in time, it was already set in stone for quite a while. I don't feel that either of us is ready to leave our life behind in our countries at this point in our relationship.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

When I said becoming defensive is a habit of hers, I meant that it also happens in situations when I'm not berating her, which is the great great majority. She has told me herself that she is aware of this bad habit and that it goes hand in hand with her being unable to apologize when I hold her accountable for her mistakes.

This isn't what a good relationship looks like.  At 10 months in, you should be still crazy over each other - not having all these arguments. 

Just how many "mistakes" is she making?   When you hold her accountable, for mistakes, what do you do/say?   Can you give examples of other things which have happened and your response to it?   When you say that she doesn't apologise, does this mean she doesn't agree that her actions were bad?

If there's no plan to close the distance, what's the point of having the relationship?  Surely, both of you would be better off with a partner who's there alongside you.

[Wiseman2]

52 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

.My girlfriend (29F) and I (30M) have a monogam-ish relationship. We are together for a bit more than 10 months and we are long distance internationally (5-6h). We are not open but not totally exclusive either. 

Unfortunately the boundaries seem quite nebulous. Also the distance with no desire to be together eventually seems odd. Reflect if policing and chiding her is really what you want out of the situation.

[MsJayne]

All this friend-kissing, the long-distance, the 'not open but not totally exclusive' relationship, (what does that even mean?), asking permission to go out with friends.....sounds quite weird. Drink-driving is just plain stupid, that would be enough to make me re-think a relationship with this person. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I also told her that not only I expect her to never do it herself again, I also expect her to not even put herself into such a situation to begin with where either she has to drive herself or has to get into a friend's car who is drunk to be driven home. She then said she will do that but might need help along the way, aka texting me before such situations could arise to put pressure on her that it wouldn't happen. I told her no way. This is not a process to go through. This needs to happen immediately. Not driving drunk, not getting into cars which are driven by drunk people should be something super natural. I told her she needs to be able to do this on her own. 

Going back to this, while I don't at all condone drunk driving, you are sounding very controlling in the way you are addressing the problem.  Did you notice that you didn't listen when she made it clear that she may need help?  This straight up tells you that she doesn't think she can do it....and if she doesn't think she can, this means she can't/won't.  So right there, you should have ended the relationship.  But instead, you just gave her more rules.

Instead of giving her (or anyone you date) all these rules about she should behave, it's better to set a boundary about what you will accept.  Instead of dictating, simply say "I'm not OK having a partner who does this" and really listen to what they say in response.   

[Alpacalia]

I don't get the impression that your girlfriend was being totally honest. I understand that she was in a tough spot and may have felt the need to spare your feelings, but the way she described the situation doesn't seem to add up. She said the guy initiated the kiss and then kissed her and her female friend, but then said she doesn't remember who he kissed first? That doesn't seem to make sense. 

I also don't quite understand the dynamics of your relationship, either. Are you both monogamous and exclusive? Is her social circle mainly made up of people in open relationships and with alternative lifestyles?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alpacalia

[basil67]

This thing where you're allowed to kiss others but only with permission, who's idea was it?   Given that her friends have open relationships, I can't help but wonder if that's what she'd prefer and there's some kind of compromise which has been negotiated.

Am I right? Or totally off base?

[beeg_yoshi]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

This isn't what a good relationship looks like.  At 10 months in, you should be still crazy over each other - not having all these arguments. 

I think not all relationships are the same and there aren't many things where you can say it's right or wrong, good or bad. we had plenty of good times too, believe me. otherwise, I wouldn't consider going further with her and me after something like this.

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

Just how many "mistakes" is she making?   When you hold her accountable, for mistakes, what do you do/say?   Can you give examples of other things which have happened and your response to it?

Just a short example because I feel like otherwise we would digress too much from the issue of my original post. There was one time where she was staying at my place and wanted to meet up with a friend of hers in the evening in the city and asked me to join. I said I would come too. During the day, she was out and about with other friends, was not reachable because she did not have mobile data and also made no effort of keeping me up to date on when she would approximately arrive at the agreed location. I tried texting her on her home country number but I forgot that this number is not active when she's staying at mines, so she never saw that. I also couldn't call her on that. I then texted the friend on Instagram, asking if my girlfriend has already arrived and where they're at approximately. Since this was my first contact with her directly, the message went unnoticed too because of Instagram's privacy policy.

In the end, my girlfriend arrived 2h late to meet her friend, then used a hotspot of the friend to text me asking where I'm at and if I'm still coming. I said no, it's too late now since there was a storm coming and I suggested them to get going before it arrives in the city.

She then came home and told me about being 2h late, to which I said that I think her friend is very forgiving because I would be upset about something like this but apparently for her friend it was no issue. This then progressed into a conversation about how I felt like she left me in the dark a bit and that I would've loved to join to meet a new friend of hers and spend time with both of them. I formulated everything I said from a "me" perspective, not trying to point fingers and just blame but also saying I felt like it was in her responsibility as well to be reachable if something like this is organized. I told her what I tried to somehow get a hold of either of the two and that I felt a bit neglected, like it didn't really matter if I would be there or not. I really tried to tell her how this made me feel and tried to make her see things from my perspective.

Essentially what happened is that she got upset and defensive because I was upset. I stayed patient and asked her what if the roles were reversed, if she would not feel the same way and she agreed. I also asked her if she at any point felt attacked or I phrased stuff the wrong way, which she denied and said, and I quote "you approached this topic in the best way possible but still I am unable to give you what you need" which really basically was only an apology and something along the lines of she would do better in the future.

Later in the evening we went to bed and she apologized. It just always takes her a moment to work up the courage to say sorry somehow. To me it comes more or less naturally. I don't really have an issue admitting that I messed up and reassure her.

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

If there's no plan to close the distance, what's the point of having the relationship?

I disagree. We're still in the early stages of our relationship. We cannot yet say or already make solid plans to leave either of our countries for each other. It's too fresh for this. Of course this would be the optimal outcome and I'm sure we will pick this topic up when the time is ripe.

[beeg_yoshi]

2 hours ago, MsJayne said:

All this friend-kissing, the long-distance, the 'not open but not totally exclusive' relationship, (what does that even mean?), asking permission to go out with friends.....sounds quite weird.

The permission thing is not about going out or not. She can of course go out whenever she likes and with whoever she wants. It's regarding the kissing part. Yeah, I agree, it's not an ordinary relationship style. First time for me too.

36 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

I don't get the impression that your girlfriend was being totally honest. I understand that she was in a tough spot and may have felt the need to spare your feelings, but the way she described the situation doesn't seem to add up. She said the guy initiated the kiss and then kissed her and her female friend, but then said she doesn't remember who he kissed first? That doesn't seem to make sense. 

Yeah, this was also a thought I had. I'm afraid I'm being trickle-truthed.

36 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

I also don't quite understand the dynamics of your relationship, either. Are you both monogamous and exclusive? Is her social circle mainly made up of people in open relationships and with alternative lifestyles?

I try to explain it more clearly. At the core, we are monogamous and have talked about what we consider cheating. So if either of us, in her example wanting to kiss her friends a bit, or for me it could be idk, flirting with a girl at the bar and dance with her etc, we ask for the other's consent first. So far, I have not made use of this dynamic for an experience without her. We went to the strip club together and the kissing her friend thing happened with her being present as well. Since this is our dynamic, I consider the kiss with her male friend to be cheating because there was no consent from my side. Of course she cannot ask for consent if the guy initiates it. What I would expect in such a situation is avoiding the kiss, backing away, turning the face etc. and letting me know either way that there was an approach made.

Please let me know if it's still not clear. I hope I was able to explain it better.

The alternate lifestyles really only is regarding the two open marriages and the single female friend. She has many other couple friends where I am not aware of the dynamics but I consider it to be monogamous from what I saw and heard so far.

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

This thing where you're allowed to kiss others but only with permission, who's idea was it?   Given that her friends have open relationships, I can't help but wonder if that's what she'd prefer and there's some kind of compromise which has been negotiated.

Am I right? Or totally off base?

Hmm, good question. From what she told me about her past relationships she only had one non-monogamous one, where the dynamics where pretty much like we are having them now. Where she gets to occasionally kiss other people. From what I heard, it was only with girls. All other relationships were monogamous. I don't think she's interested in a completely open relationship and me neither, I think.

I think when we were starting to get to know each other we were just talking about this stuff and different relationship dynamics and we said yeah we could imagine something like this for us both. Then one night, where she went out, she texted me asking for this permission to kiss her female friends and after some consideration, I gave her my consent and since then we have been exploring this side of our relationship step by step. I think after that was the strip club and then the instance where I was present and participated as well with one of her female friends. So really three occasions so far. It's really not like this is happening every weekend.

Edited September 10, 2023 by beeg_yoshi

[Alpacalia]

57 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I try to explain it more clearly. At the core, we are monogamous and have talked about what we consider cheating. So if either of us, in her example wanting to kiss her friends a bit, or for me it could be idk, flirting with a girl at the bar and dance with her etc, we ask for the other's consent first. So far, I have not made use of this dynamic for an experience without her. We went to the strip club together and the kissing her friend thing happened with her being present as well. Since this is our dynamic, I consider the kiss with her male friend to be cheating because there was no consent from my side. Of course she cannot ask for consent if the guy initiates it. What I would expect in such a situation is avoiding the kiss, backing away, turning the face etc. and letting me know either way that there was an approach made.

Please let me know if it's still not clear. I hope I was able to explain it better.

The alternate lifestyles really only is regarding the two open marriages and the single female friend. She has many other couple friends where I am not aware of the dynamics but I consider it to be monogamous from what I saw and heard so far.

This is unusual because there seems to be so many loop-holes in this format and the alternate lifestyle thing (the open marriages and the woman who likes experimenting) come into play. It's not that it's a totally open relationship, more of an ambiguous one, which isn't easy (especially in a long-distance relationship) to have boundaries for and even trust. I don't quite  understand how  phrases like "certain freedoms if both are on the same page about it and it has been discussed beforehand" work when in the same breath, she goes and kisses someone else without your consent? It just doesn't make sense to me and feels a little contradictory. 

Can she handle such a possibly ambiguous relationship while being away from you for so long? 

Maybe she is still unclear on where boundaries are set, or she thought it was okay to do what she did. Maybe her social circle is pressuring her into more open behaviors. Why do you need to trust her if you are not totally exclusive? Whose idea was it to enter this kind of relationship?  And does it truly fulfill both of your needs?

I get that your feelings are hurt, but you need to take a step back and really evaluate what you and your girlfriend have. You can't expect her to act with certain boundaries if you haven't laid them out explicitly, too. Why do you have a "monogam-ish" relationship? Talk to her about what exactly that means to you, and to her. Where do you draw the line? Are there certain freedoms you are willing to give her, even if it means going against your own beliefs? And on the flip side-- what does she expect from you? What are her boundaries and limits?

It almost seems like you have an understanding that both of you want a monogamous relationship at the core, but then you have an exception for certain things that could potentially feel like cheating to one or both of you. That's a tricky setup, and it doesn't really make sense to be in such a relationship if you don't trust that the other person will honor the boundaries.

[Alvi]

1 hour ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I try to explain it more clearly. At the core, we are monogamous and have talked about what we consider cheating. So if either of us, in her example wanting to kiss her friends a bit, or for me it could be idk, flirting with a girl at the bar and dance with her etc, we ask for the other's consent first. So far, I have not made use of this dynamic for an experience without her. We went to the strip club together and the kissing her friend thing happened with her being present as well. Since this is our dynamic, I consider the kiss with her male friend to be cheating because there was no consent from my side. Of course she cannot ask for consent if the guy initiates it. What I would expect in such a situation is avoiding the kiss, backing away, turning the face etc. and letting me know either way that there was an approach made.

OP, at at 10 month mark the two of you should only have the eyes for each other. When you see each other, which I assume is not that often, it should be about the two of you. But how many other people are there in you relationship besides the two of you? All these crazy rules about who can kiss who and when and who can dance with whom. Come on, lol. You should be kissing each other and dancing with each other at this practically honeymoon stage. Take it for what it is and admit it to yourself that this is not a serious long term relationship but rather a casual one. Is it going to work out and last forever? Not likely. It is a fun relationship but can you say that you see yourself with this woman in let's say 10 years from now? You are probably always going to have a very fond memories of her and the wild times that the two of you have shared but that's about it.  You can make up a million rules but at the end of the day if either of you have the need to kiss or to dance with another party, is is pretty much over. Plus, the distance doesn't help unless either of you move closer to each other. You can open things up but since you live far away from each other, there is nothing much to open up. Sounds more like an open relationship-FWB type of hybrid. Seriously, get someone who lives close to you to date. Open or a monogamish type of relationships are only going to work if there is a very strong foundation before it gets open up, which is none in your case.

[beeg_yoshi]

22 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

I don't quite  understand how  phrases like "certain freedoms if both are on the same page about it and it has been discussed beforehand" work when in the same breath, she goes and kisses someone else without your consent? It just doesn't make sense to me and feels a little contradictory. 

Yeah, I agree. She knows she messed up and it was a mistake. It's not like she went ahead thinking it's fine. Either way though, at the end of the day it happened and it was outside of what we agreed on.

24 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Can she handle such a possibly ambiguous relationship while being away from you for so long?

I thought so. It was fine up until now but this situation makes me rethink things.

25 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Maybe she is still unclear on where boundaries are set, or she thought it was okay to do what she did.

No no, don't worry she 100% knows it was wrong.

25 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Maybe her social circle is pressuring her into more open behaviors.

I could imagine this yeah.

26 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Why do you need to trust her if you are not totally exclusive?

All good questions. I think the trust thing is because of what she and I set as our relationship dynamic, that we reach out first before we engage in such activities. Otherwise, yeah it would just be a classic open relationship but even there are always certain ground rules I'm sure (I don't have experience), so I think trust is always a part of this.

29 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Whose idea was it to enter this kind of relationship?

This idea of this dynamic grew over time mutually. Neither of really sat one of us down and said they would like it to be like this or that. We just took it step by step and are experimenting.

30 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

And does it truly fulfill both of your needs?

Yeah I think we're still in the process of figuring this out.

30 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Why do you have a "monogam-ish" relationship? Talk to her about what exactly that means to you, and to her. Where do you draw the line? Are there certain freedoms you are willing to give her, even if it means going against your own beliefs? And on the flip side-- what does she expect from you? What are her boundaries and limits?

Good points, I think a more clear definition is necessary. Could you perhaps give an example of "Are there certain freedoms you are willing to give her, even if it means going against your own beliefs?"? Thanks!

[beeg_yoshi]

11 minutes ago, Alvi said:

OP, at at 10 month mark the two of you should only have the eyes for each other. When you see each other, which I assume is not that often, it should be about the two of you. But how many other people are there in you relationship besides the two of you? All these crazy rules about who can kiss who and when and who can dance with whom. Come on, lol. You should be kissing each other and dancing with each other at this practically honeymoon stage. Take it for what it is and admit it to yourself that this is not a serious long term relationship but rather a casual one. Is it going to work out and last forever? Not likely. It is a fun relationship but can you say that you see yourself with this woman in let's say 10 years from now? You are probably always going to have a very fond memories of her and the wild times that the two of you have shared but that's about it.  You can make up a million rules but at the end of the day if either of you have the need to kiss or to dance with another party, is is pretty much over. Plus, the distance doesn't help unless either of you move closer to each other. You can open things up but since you live far away from each other, there is nothing much to open up. Sounds more like an open relationship-FWB type of hybrid. Seriously, get someone who lives close to you to date. Open or a monogamish type of relationships are only going to work if there is a very strong foundation before it gets open up, which is none in your case.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. Still I believe what you're describing is very black/white. In the past, I also thought that there is only the monogamy relationship model and at the end of the day, neither is right or wrong. I'm still experiencing this different dynamic and seeing if this fits for me or not. Her allowing our boundaries to be broken of course makes me rethink things regarding this dynamic.

[ExpatInItaly]

So in other words, this not-really-open-but-open dynamic was her idea, and you went along with it. 

Right?

Because it's clearly not working if after 10 months you're running into situations like this and still don't know if this relationship fulfills your needs. It shouldn't take that long to figure out if you're happy with this. What I see is you trying to be okay with it, but you're not actually okay with it. 

Add the long distance her overall poor judgment? This is not going to last, man. It's already falling apart. 

[glows]

Do you mean to say that you both can only kiss or initiate or engage with third parties outside your relationship once you’ve each given the other permission to do so? Upon reading your first post I have no idea why she was “confessing” or feeling bad about what she did. She seems like a person with very low self esteem. I’d have dumped you if you ever came at me in that tone or berated or kept lecturing as if to dictate like a broken record. I understand you’re hurt and see where the trust was broken but please control your tone as well and the way you’re treating your partner. I agree with the previous comments indicating she’s not ok with the arrangement as is and by asking for help from you she’s expressing she’s not cut out for this set up. 

You’ve made your point very clear and it’s doubtful she’ll ever forget it. I think there’s something to be said about ldr with no real plans to be together in person - you’re both hanging off of words only via text and video and there is so much bonding in person that is missing so much so that every slight or slip of judgment feels like the end of the world. If you spent more time with her in person and spent time with each others’ friends and you saw first hand what she’s really like day in and day out every single week would you really have this much doubt? 

[basil67]

7 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

....She then came home and told me about being 2h late, to which I said that I think her friend is very forgiving because I would be upset about something like this but apparently for her friend it was no issue. This then progressed into a conversation about how I felt like she left me in the dark a bit and that I would've loved to join to meet a new friend of hers and spend time with both of them. I formulated everything I said from a "me" perspective, not trying to point fingers and just blame but also saying I felt like it was in her responsibility as well to be reachable if something like this is organized. I told her what I tried to somehow get a hold of either of the two and that I felt a bit neglected, like it didn't really matter if I would be there or not. I really tried to tell her how this made me feel and tried to make her see things from my perspective.

Essentially what happened is that she got upset and defensive because I was upset. I stayed patient and asked her what if the roles were reversed, if she would not feel the same way and she agreed. I also asked her if she at any point felt attacked or I phrased stuff the wrong way, which she denied and said, and I quote "you approached this topic in the best way possible but still I am unable to give you what you need" which really basically was only an apology and something along the lines of she would do better in the future.

Later in the evening we went to bed and she apologized. It just always takes her a moment to work up the courage to say sorry somehow. To me it comes more or less naturally. I don't really have an issue admitting that I messed up and reassure her.

Wow..reading this is doing my head in and I can understand why she got upset.  You're really big on the communication...way too big.  Why not just say "Hey, I was waiting to hear from you...what happened?" 

Do you also recognise that again, you didn't hear her?  "I am unable to give you what you need".   It wasn't an apology.  It was a statement of fact that you're expecting more of her than she can or will deliver.  

7 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I disagree. We're still in the early stages of our relationship. We cannot yet say or already make solid plans to leave either of our countries for each other. It's too fresh for this. Of course this would be the optimal outcome and I'm sure we will pick this topic up when the time is ripe.

10 months in is NOT early in a relationship.  Surely you've casually discussed possible future scenarios?  

All in all though, this plan of getting permission from the other to kiss someone else in the moment really isn't practical.  What if something's going on which she wants to be part of and you're not reachable?   Or she really wants it and you don't agree?   Instead of these weird rules, get some blanket rules in place which allow the other a degree of freedom without having to jump through hoops.  Or, agree that neither of you will go kissing others at all.

[beeg_yoshi]

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

So in other words, this not-really-open-but-open dynamic was her idea, and you went along with it. 

Right?

I guess so yeah.

6 hours ago, glows said:

Do you mean to say that you both can only kiss or initiate or engage with third parties outside your relationship once you’ve each given the other permission to do so?

Yes.

6 hours ago, glows said:

I’d have dumped you if you ever came at me in that tone or berated or kept lecturing as if to dictate like a broken record.

That sounds a bit extreme to me.

6 hours ago, glows said:

I understand you’re hurt and see where the trust was broken but please control your tone as well and the way you’re treating your partner. I agree with the previous comments indicating she’s not ok with the arrangement as is and by asking for help from you she’s expressing she’s not cut out for this set up. 

I think you misunderstand. The berating and asking for help happened regarding the drunk driving not our relationship dynamic and that she broke the boundaries there.

6 hours ago, glows said:

I think there’s something to be said about ldr with no real plans to be together in person - you’re both hanging off of words only via text and video and there is so much bonding in person that is missing so much so that every slight or slip of judgment feels like the end of the world. If you spent more time with her in person and spent time with each others’ friends and you saw first hand what she’s really like day in and day out every single week would you really have this much doubt? 

We see each other at least once a month and usually for a few days with either her staying at my place or me at hers. We also went on two vacations this year already too and a third 2-week vacation is already planned in a few weeks. I've met her friends multiple times already as she has mine.

I think people are focusing on the wrong things here. I cannot layout my entire relationship detailed from A to Z. I really only wanted some insight on the issue at hand and not about us being long distance or whatever. That's an entirely different topic and is not relevant in my opinion because my original post would still be the same if we lived together or close by.

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Wow..reading this is doing my head in and I can understand why she got upset.  You're really big on the communication...way too big.  Why not just say "Hey, I was waiting to hear from you...what happened?" 

How am I too big on communication? I don't understand. Of course I asked what happened. Would you not be upset in my position?

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Do you also recognise that again, you didn't hear her?  "I am unable to give you what you need".   It wasn't an apology.  It was a statement of fact that you're expecting more of her than she can or will deliver.  

No, I did hear that. I know it wasn't an apology but I understand what you're hinting at. I'm expecting things of my partner she tells me she cannot give me and I need to assess whether or not I am fine with it or not instead of trying to shape her.

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

10 months in is NOT early in a relationship.  Surely you've casually discussed possible future scenarios?  

Yes, but casually only as you assumed correctly.

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

All in all though, this plan of getting permission from the other to kiss someone else in the moment really isn't practical.  What if something's going on which she wants to be part of and you're not reachable?   Or she really wants it and you don't agree?   Instead of these weird rules, get some blanket rules in place which allow the other a degree of freedom without having to jump through hoops.  Or, agree that neither of you will go kissing others at all.

Yeah, I agree, maybe some ground rules without needing to reach out first could help if we want to keep this dynamic going. I'll take this into consideration.

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

Instead of giving her (or anyone you date) all these rules about she should behave, it's better to set a boundary about what you will accept.  Instead of dictating, simply say "I'm not OK having a partner who does this" and really listen to what they say in response.

Yeah I thought about this too and in the end yeah, it's my decision what I accept in a partner and what not. It's just hard too see the positive picture you had of someone you love being damaged like that.

Edited September 10, 2023 by beeg_yoshi

[ExpatInItaly]

2 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I guess so yeah

Then it will never really work long-term. 

I say that because those I know who have successful open relationships (or shades thereof, like yours) make it work because both parties came into it already knowing they were non-monogamous and were seeking like-minded individuals as their primary partners. You, on the other hand, have gone along with something that isn't your nature and doesn't sit well with you. 

Your girlfriend wants to enjoy more romantic freedom than you are comfortable with. She wants to be able to flirt and play kissy-face with whomever she chooses, in the moment. It's simply not practical or realistic to expect to clear it with other person first every time one is tempted to kiss someone else, because it's not always something that is foreseen. As you're seeing, it sometimes happens spontaneously and what is she going to do - say, "stop, wait, I have to ask my boyfriend first if this is ok" and then make the other party wait while she tries to reach you? Of course not. She's going to go for it and hope you don't get upset about it. I am not saying that is right, necessarily, but that's how it's playing out. 

My point is that your agreement with her doesn't work in reality. You're not there and not going to be there every time she thinks she wants to kiss another person. I would say either you need to be okay with her going for it and letting you know after if circumstances don't lend themselves to seeking your express consent first, or don't be okay with it at all and find a different girlfriend who is monogamous. The idea you two had for how this could work, well, doesn't work at all. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Long distance and monogamish--no way, absolutely no way. That's about as stable as a long-distance fbw. A ldr requires intense communication and paradoxically a lot of closeness, a lot. I was in a ldr for a couple of years. We talked every night after work and then later ... had there been any "ish" around the monogamy, no way would it have worked. Or put it like this, sure, you want this kind of thing to work, you are going to put in a lot of hours of controlling your anxiety, both of you. You're going to have a ton of conversations about the rules.

You mention accountability and that doesn't sound right to me. You're not married to her.  I don't think that's the right language, accountability. The question is, do you want to stay with her or not? Can you accept her and her ways or not? In my many decades of life and my thousands of conversations about romantic relationships, marriages, even friendships, I have never heard one partner talk about holding the other accountable. I'm sensing you think the agreement you guys reach is the most important thing. I don't buy that.

The most important thing is how happy you both are with however the relationship evolves. The agreement has to fit the two people and the situation. You are going to need to find a different woman if you want to hold on to this accountability language. Back to basics: why not just break up with her? 

Your rage is a sign that something is off. It's YOUR job to assess whether she's right for you and whether you can trust her. If you're raging at her for an offense, that's an indication that you guys are not a good fit for each other. BTW: her being disorganized with time is not a crime. 

 

 

[beeg_yoshi]

42 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

My point is that your agreement with her doesn't work in reality. You're not there and not going to be there every time she thinks she wants to kiss another person. I would say either you need to be okay with her going for it and letting you know after if circumstances don't lend themselves to seeking your express consent first, or don't be okay with it at all and find a different girlfriend who is monogamous. The idea you two had for how this could work, well, doesn't work at all. 

Yeah, that's the same thing basil67 said and I agree, maybe some ground rules without needing to reach out first could help if we want to keep this dynamic going. 

23 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I'm sensing you think the agreement you guys reach is the most important thing. I don't buy that.

What do you mean by that?  

25 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Back to basics: why not just break up with her? 

Because I still love her at the end of the day and nobody is perfect. We had many many good experiences together and bonded very deeply over the months we had together. Additionally, although it came a few days too late in my eyes, her apology sounded sincere and regretful,   

28 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

If you're raging at her for an offense

I think raging is too strong of a word. I was direct and upset because I was hurt but my tone of voice was still calm.  

31 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

BTW: her being disorganized with time is not a crime. 

Yes, it's not a crime but I believe most people would be upset if they got stood up.

Edited September 10, 2023 by beeg_yoshi

[ExpatInItaly]

58 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

maybe some ground rules without needing to reach out first could help if we want to keep this dynamic going.

I would ask yourself, in your heart of hearts, do you want to keep this dynamic going? 

[beeg_yoshi]

17 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I would ask yourself, in your heart of hearts, do you want to keep this dynamic going? 

Good point. Thanks for reminding me to think of my needs here. I tend to look out for others before I consider myself.

[ExpatInItaly]

34 minutes ago, beeg_yoshi said:

Good point. Thanks for reminding me to think of my needs here. I tend to look out for others before I consider myself.

Absolutely. 

For a relationship to work, it can't be all about trying to accommodate  the other person's needs and desires. Yours count too.