Girlfriend overstepped boundaries.

[Alpacalia]

11 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

Yeah, I agree. She knows she messed up and it was a mistake. It's not like she went ahead thinking it's fine. Either way though, at the end of the day it happened and it was outside of what we agreed on.

I thought so. It was fine up until now but this situation makes me rethink things.

No no, don't worry she 100% knows it was wrong.

I could imagine this yeah.

All good questions. I think the trust thing is because of what she and I set as our relationship dynamic, that we reach out first before we engage in such activities. Otherwise, yeah it would just be a classic open relationship but even there are always certain ground rules I'm sure (I don't have experience), so I think trust is always a part of this.

This idea of this dynamic grew over time mutually. Neither of really sat one of us down and said they would like it to be like this or that. We just took it step by step and are experimenting.

Yeah I think we're still in the process of figuring this out.

It's hard to imagine if she was over the limit while driving how exactly does she recall that it happened after a female friend of hers' or that it was just a couple of seconds? I know these things can be misinterpreted and experiences and memories may vary between people but this has a bit of a funny after taste to me. I guess I would also know if I was kissed 'by the way' by a male friend. I'm not quite sure if this is a breach of trust or if her being drunk is an excuse even if deeper down you feel it's not.

It also seems like there is some control issue on your part in terms of wanting her to not put herself in such a situation to begin with and demanding she act on her own.

Your girlfriend can choose not be put in a situation where she has to make a choice between safety and fun - and you're right to want her to be able to make responsible decisions regardless of the situation. Details aside, the bigger picture is that you do not feel secure in this relationship. Monogamy is the agreement to not pursue intimate relationships with other people, but the follow-through takes more than just an agreement.

You say you're not in an open relationship but that you're not exactly exclusive either. There just seems to be too much room to breach the boundaries of your relationship.

Quote

Good points, I think a more clear definition is necessary. Could you perhaps give an example of "Are there certain freedoms you are willing to give her, even if it means going against your own beliefs?"? Thanks!

A similar comparison would be if you are a religious parent and have certain beliefs about allowing your daughter to express her gender identity, but you are willing to give her the freedom to present in any way she feels comfortable with, even if it goes against your own beliefs. That would be an example.

[smackie9]

Sounds to me you are forcing yourself to let her do whatever she thinks is OK just to be with her. You will forever struggle with this, be hurt by this, be jealous by this. You can do better than her....that all you have to tell yourself when you finally find your self worth.

[beeg_yoshi]

2 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

It's hard to imagine if she was over the limit while driving how exactly does she recall that it happened after a female friend of hers' or that it was just a couple of seconds? I know these things can be misinterpreted and experiences and memories may vary between people but this has a bit of a funny after taste to me. I guess I would also know if I was kissed 'by the way' by a male friend. I'm not quite sure if this is a breach of trust or if her being drunk is an excuse even if deeper down you feel it's not.

Yeah I was thinking about the details as well and I came to the conclusion that they don't really matter. What matters is that a kiss happened outside of the terms of our relationship. How it got to that point is not really all that relevant.

2 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

You say you're not in an open relationship but that you're not exactly exclusive either. There just seems to be too much room to breach the boundaries of your relationship.

Yes, it's too blurry.

2 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

A similar comparison would be if you are a religious parent and have certain beliefs about allowing your daughter to express her gender identity, but you are willing to give her the freedom to present in any way she feels comfortable with, even if it goes against your own beliefs.

Ah, I understand, yeah. This might be a silly example but it's the only one I can think of right now. She doesn't really care much for digital security, like she doesn't mind using the same password on every account. She gets multiple spam emails a day as well etc. Stuff like that. I'm the complete opposite there

[beeg_yoshi]

Hi All

Thanks for all your input. There was some stuff to really take into consideration and I appreciate all of you taking your time to respond to my post. I talked with my girlfriend this evening and decided to continue with the relationship. We both agreed to hold back on the "flexible" part for now until we have discussed more in detail what both of us exactly need and are comfortable with in a relationship.

Cheers!

[Wiseman2]

16 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

 Then one night, where she went out, she texted me asking for this permission to kiss her female friends and after some consideration, I gave her my consent .

Unfortunately you seem on different wavelengths. Perhaps it's the distance perhaps you're not compatible as far as boundaries but haven't admitted that to yourselves? 

While you two may have great chemistry and future plans, these rules and regulations and permission and all that seems inordinately complicated.

All these rules and regulations are not really being open minded nor are they improving trust in a sort of somewhat monogamous relationship.

Almost as if you two have entered police state or parent-child dynamic in order to attempt to navigate these extremely nebulous boundaries.

Either try to agree on clear boundaries or give her free rien to exercise her own judgement or reset the parameters. It's strange she has to text you for permission and then there's rules about how many seconds to kiss is allowed and where and with whom and so on.

As it stands now, unfortunately you seem to be trying to be ok with what you're really not ok with. Reflect if you're being true to yourself and your own values. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Lotsgoingon]

4 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

Good point. Thanks for reminding me to think of my needs here. I tend to look out for others before I consider myself.

OK, your rage--right there. I have tended to rage (I know you don't like that word, but I'm going to stick with it) when I've given up my power and am not taking my own interest seriously in a relationship.

If you are all like me,  the rage (and all the accountability talk) is a signal that the relationship is out of balance, that you are not looking after your own interest. Therefore, when something goes wrong, you get really upset. You want to have some slack in the relationship, where things can go wrong and yet, you're still feel satisfied--you have some room, like some money in the bank.

BTW: when I say being time disorganized is not a crime, I don't mean you shouldn't be upset. I mean, if that's the way she is, then that's the way she is. And you want to really face the truth of whether you want to be with this person. 

 

[BrinnM]

Different perspective: This all sounds a little bit childish in my opinion. You’re way too old to do this “kissing others” stuff. What’s the point here? You’re both in your 30s, not in high school. Same with drinking & driving.
 

LDRs can be complicated, and they require more planning and probably more maturity on both partners’ parts. I don’t see that here, though. I actually see the exact opposite. Not sure about you, but she’s way out of line. Going out partying w/o you, being in your city/country for a visit & ignoring you for a full day plus an entire evening, driving drunk, kissing others, ….. How do you know it ends there? If both parties are inebriated & uninhibited enough to kiss in a car with others present, I wouldn’t think for one second that this is where it ends. The boundaries have been crossed, and sex is the next step, there’s no doubt about it. If it doesn’t happen this time, it’ll happen next time. The whole group of friends sounds reckless and weird, if you ask me, e.g. the “dad” who gets drunk without his wife present, surrounded by other women, and one of them drives him home, while she’s drunk herself?!? Really? Makes me wonder …..

Is this who you want your GF to hang out with on a regular basis? Is this who she is, too?
They all sound like college kids, not like adults with spouses & children. I can’t understand how you’re attracted to this environment, OP. 

[basil67]

20 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

She then came home and told me about being 2h late, to which I said that I think her friend is very forgiving because I would be upset about something like this but apparently for her friend it was no issue. This then progressed into a conversation about how I felt like she left me in the dark a bit and that I would've loved to join to meet a new friend of hers and spend time with both of them. I formulated everything I said from a "me" perspective, not trying to point fingers and just blame but also saying I felt like it was in her responsibility as well to be reachable if something like this is organized. I told her what I tried to somehow get a hold of either of the two and that I felt a bit neglected, like it didn't really matter if I would be there or not. I really tried to tell her how this made me feel and tried to make her see things from my perspective.

Essentially what happened is that she got upset and defensive because I was upset. I stayed patient and asked her what if the roles were reversed, if she would not feel the same way and she agreed. I also asked her if she at any point felt attacked or I phrased stuff the wrong way, which she denied and said, and I quote "you approached this topic in the best way possible but still I am unable to give you what you need" which really basically was only an apology and something along the lines of she would do better in the future.

Going back to this.  When I say it's too wordy, your opening sentence had it covered perfectly.  The bolded was unnecessary and harping on the same issue, and to add to that, you started talking about her responsibilities as one would in a parent/child dynamic.  And that you kept at it is likely what caused her to get upset.  It was just too much.  And then after she got upset, you continued on the same topic!   It's important to know when to stop

I also agree with @glows about the berating (and rules) you gave her about the drunk driving.  Getting mad at her is completely understandable and I'd accept that.  But telling her exactly how she should behave from here on in is not OK.  It's controlling.  Again a parent/child dynamic.   Thing is, she needs to go through the process of deciding this for herself.  And if she's not ready to make this decision for herself, then you have the information you need to decide if she's the right person for you.

Stop talking so much.  Instead, learn to quietly observe and then figure out if she's a good fit.

Edited September 10, 2023 by basil67

[BrinnM]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

about the drunk driving.  Getting mad at her is completely understandable and I'd accept that.  But telling her exactly how she should behave from here on in is not OK.  It's controlling.  Again a parent/child dynamic. 

Yeah, the whole relationship seems childish. I agree, she should know for herself, without being told, what’s appropriate behavior for her particular age range, but it seems that she doesn’t, really. 

At the same time, OP isn’t any “better”, as he engages in kissing other women while his GF is present as well, which is also weird. I can accept and respect an open relationship, but what exactly is this? They can “kiss” other people of the same (and the opposite) gender, but only if it’s announced previously? That’s not even doable………let’s say it happens on a night out, where she’s dancing with a hot dude, and they’re getting carried away, ready to kiss, is she then supposed to tell hot dude: “Hold on just a few minutes, gotta call my boyfriend in [insert different country] to ask for permission really quick. BRB!” ?????

It’s not practical. You either have an open relationship, or you don’t. 

[ExpatInItaly]

9 hours ago, BrinnM said:

It’s not practical. You either have an open relationship, or you don’t. 

I agree, and I have a feeling she is trying to warm OP up to having a plain ol' open relationship. 

Since she surely knows it's not practical to call him every time she wants to mess around with someone else, she's laying the groundwork for an open arrangement where she's got the freedom to act on her attraction to another person and tell OP about it later. She can use this latest episode as an example of how their current "agreement" doesn't work, so it's better to just have implied consent to kiss other people and then bring our OP up to speed later. 

Be very careful what you agree to here, OP. I think you're likely to get quite hurt since it's not really your nature to have a non-monogamous relationship. 

[JTSW]

13 hours ago, beeg_yoshi said:

I talked with my girlfriend this evening and decided to continue with the relationship. We both agreed to hold back on the "flexible" part for now until we have discussed more in detail what both of us exactly need and are comfortable with in a relationship.

You need a clearer dynamic because the one you have is really messed up.

Monogom ish? You either are or your not.

Going forward I suggest that you also examine the way you talk to her.

You berate her like a father berates his daughter.

Women won't put up with that from a bf for long.

[Ray_xx]

No disrespect but what do you expect? what do you both expect? Who in their minds would be in a relationship where it is ok to kiss other people. That is not love. It's a fantasy.

Yeah this messes with my mind.

[Lisa]

OP requested thread closure