How do I overcome the complications of dating and avoid drama?

[Lamron300]

59 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think that's nice of her to offer. I don't know obviously though how you feel about your in person chemistry so it's important to listen to your gut.

Dating in riddled with people who are indecisive, flaky, just looking for attention after a recent breakup etc. you have to decide what you want at the moment and just go in that direction, but upfront and if you think it's a waste of time just break things off politely.

Whether that's just friends with benefits or a relationship that's up to you, but you need to be direct and go for it and make sure others aren't just taking you along for a ride.

It is a nice offer, but I know her and I’m pretty sure she is a platonic dater. As I said, she says stuff like ah she’s bad at flirting or didn’t get when I’m flirting or not. In the past, that would’ve been endearing but just rings alarm bells. She’s not suddenly going to go from 0-100. 
 

Like with the 3 month situationship, it lasted so long as I actually like she arranged lots of dates/activities as I sometimes feel like it’s left to the man to impress someone. And I’m happy to take things slow as long as there is profess. But then I got to comfortable before I realised there is no chemistry. She had come from a recent breakup and has a lot of insecurities I don’t want to get involved in. 
 

I don’t want to be too snappy with my judgements, but I also don’t want to think ‘oh great, I’m speaking to 5/6 people everything will be fine’. The truth is, it’s likely none of them are suitable. 
 

Because im exclusively OLD I then feel I need to make a choice out of people on OLD, even though it’s not a great match. 

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

It is a nice offer, but I know her and I’m pretty sure she is a platonic dater. As I said, she says stuff like ah she’s bad at flirting or didn’t get when I’m flirting or not. In the past, that would’ve been endearing but just rings alarm bells. She’s not suddenly going to go from 0-100. 
 

Like with the 3 month situationship, it lasted so long as I actually like she arranged lots of dates/activities as I sometimes feel like it’s left to the man to impress someone. And I’m happy to take things slow as long as there is profess. But then I got to comfortable before I realised there is no chemistry. She had come from a recent breakup and has a lot of insecurities I don’t want to get involved in. 
 

I don’t want to be too snappy with my judgements, but I also don’t want to think ‘oh great, I’m speaking to 5/6 people everything will be fine’. The truth is, it’s likely none of them are suitable. 
 

Because im exclusively OLD I then feel I need to make a choice out of people on OLD, even though it’s not a great match. 

If you don't feel anyone is suitable for a relationship, you shouldn't get into a relationship that your heart's not in.

You seem to have a real habit of meeting "platonic daters" as you call them. I think this is worth looking into and figuring it out. It's hard to say if you're attracting these girls to "fit" your own maladaptive behaviours or if you're projecting this onto them.

[Lamron300]

19 hours ago, FredEire said:

If you don't feel anyone is suitable for a relationship, you shouldn't get into a relationship that your heart's not in.

You seem to have a real habit of meeting "platonic daters" as you call them. I think this is worth looking into and figuring it out. It's hard to say if you're attracting these girls to "fit" your own maladaptive behaviours or if you're projecting this onto them.

I cut it off as soon as I learn they are platonic daters. I gave her a chance and the first date was fine, laughter etc. But she lived a repressed childhood and is too shy/akward/aloof and I don’t want to get involved. In the past I would’ve found it quite endearing and said I prefer that to someone who is arrogant or cocky. But she doesn’t understand flirting or accept compliments and to say I don’t know what to respond to that, after me saying let’s cuddle is weird, especially as she offered to come to my house to look after me. This is the part that has changed, in the past I wouldn’t multi date and this would’ve been a big let down. Now two options have been ruled out, I will keep moving forward. I just don’t think OLD is for me. 

[Lamron300]

To further expand on what I said earlier, I am starting to feel very resentful towards dating and it’s not really my fault. The woman I spent 3 months dating said ‘ I like you, you’re such a nice guy, you have your life together, you have own house and business at 30 etc and work hard’. I suppose to the poster who asked me what I have to offer, from other people’s perspective I guess they seem me as responsible and mature. Their words, not mine. 
 

But my ‘niceness’ is taking advantage of. For example, she would say very sexual things but when it came to in person, nothing would happen despite me trying. She was content in going to every restaurant in London and cinema etc. She said I’m such a gentleman and I haven’t pressured her to do anything, which made me question what would have counted as pressure? She says men usually try and rush her into bed, but now I’m doubting that as 15 dates is way too long. 
 

Second girl, as I said very aloof, doesn’t understand flirting and doesn’t flirt. Encouraged to try dating by housemates. 31, talks about wanting kids but not put any action in to find a partner. Goes missing for a week and then says sorry I needed time to myself. I can’t be bothered with this so won’t be doing anymore dates with her. Since she’s controlled by her parents, unlikely they would approve of her even dating, especially someone from a diffident culture. 
 

Third girl, get along fine. Kissed on second date. Not sure what will happen in future, due to the other experiences I’m feeling very guarded. 
 

Fourth girl, has been less talkative on WhatsApp asked me for first date tomorrow. On Thursday she said she is feeling a bit off, can’t tell if it’s a one off or wider mental health issues. 
 

When you look into it deeper, I’m just wasting my time with OLD characters. No fault of my own, I definitely don’t manifest it or encourage it. 

[Weezy1973]

@Lamron300 You’re describing pretty benign scenarios as if you’ve experienced major trauma. And now have some sort of dating PTSD. But nothing that you’re describing is particularly traumatic. Or shouldn’t be at least. 
 

Basically you’re saying you’ve dated some women that didn’t end up being a good match for you. Which is the whole point of dating. I’d suggest pulling the plug sooner in some of those cases, but it’s all pretty much par for the course when it comes to online dating. You need a thicker skin. 

[FredEire]

50 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

To further expand on what I said earlier, I am starting to feel very resentful towards dating and it’s not really my fault. The woman I spent 3 months dating said ‘ I like you, you’re such a nice guy, you have your life together, you have own house and business at 30 etc and work hard’. I suppose to the poster who asked me what I have to offer, from other people’s perspective I guess they seem me as responsible and mature. Their words, not mine. 
 

But my ‘niceness’ is taking advantage of. For example, she would say very sexual things but when it came to in person, nothing would happen despite me trying. She was content in going to every restaurant in London and cinema etc. She said I’m such a gentleman and I haven’t pressured her to do anything, which made me question what would have counted as pressure? She says men usually try and rush her into bed, but now I’m doubting that as 15 dates is way too long. 
 

Second girl, as I said very aloof, doesn’t understand flirting and doesn’t flirt. Encouraged to try dating by housemates. 31, talks about wanting kids but not put any action in to find a partner. Goes missing for a week and then says sorry I needed time to myself. I can’t be bothered with this so won’t be doing anymore dates with her. Since she’s controlled by her parents, unlikely they would approve of her even dating, especially someone from a diffident culture. 
 

Third girl, get along fine. Kissed on second date. Not sure what will happen in future, due to the other experiences I’m feeling very guarded. 
 

Fourth girl, has been less talkative on WhatsApp asked me for first date tomorrow. On Thursday she said she is feeling a bit off, can’t tell if it’s a one off or wider mental health issues. 
 

When you look into it deeper, I’m just wasting my time with OLD characters. No fault of my own, I definitely don’t manifest it or encourage it. 

Please don't start getting stuck in the "nice guys finish last" nonsense. When people say nice, they usually mean indecisive and passive.

To me it sounds like both that you were too passive about it and she probably didn't want to sleep with you. After 15 dates she would probably be making moves herself or at least dropping heavy hints.

I agree with Weezy this is just dating these days unfortunately. It's hard to meet a good match unless you are very lucky and the right person just falls in your lap early on. Usually there is a lot of searching and shitty/weird experiences and some people never find it. Tis just the way it is.

Edited May 11 by FredEire

[Lamron300]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:18 PM, Weezy1973 said:

@Lamron300 You’re describing pretty benign scenarios as if you’ve experienced major trauma. And now have some sort of dating PTSD. But nothing that you’re describing is particularly traumatic. Or shouldn’t be at least. 
 

Basically you’re saying you’ve dated some women that didn’t end up being a good match for you. Which is the whole point of dating. I’d suggest pulling the plug sooner in some of those cases, but it’s all pretty much par for the course when it comes to online dating. You need a thicker skin. 

I am pulling the plug quickly now or not even bothering to go on the date if I get weird vibes. Obviously these are just experiences from 2024, there’s lot of other frustrating/traumatic experiences. Not saying I’m the only one.

But a lot of these women I’m meeting aren’t in a position to date. It only becomes apparent between 1-3 dates and then I feel kind of resentful for wasting my time. 
 

For example, I have a date today. When we were talking online on the dating app everything was flowing well, now we are on WhatsApp she is either responding in brief or not at all. She has confirmed we are still on for 6pm today but I’m not going into it with a good vibe about her. I usually chat solidly all the way up through till the date. I don’t just go on dates for the sake of it. You can never tell with OLD, people can turn. For example in 2019, two girls I went on dates with had been on dates with my brother as he was on app on same time before me and they didn’t tell me till after and made it weird. I don’t find women on these apps logical. I want to meet someone through a hobby class and get to know them over a few weeks. On apps people use their best photos (which may be from years ago), may literally have come out of a breakup a month ago for all I know or are just weird in another way. 

[basil67]

 

12 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

now we are on WhatsApp she is either responding in brief or not at all. She has confirmed we are still on for 6pm today but I’m not going into it with a good vibe about her. I usually chat solidly all the way up through till the date.

Can you define "chat solidly"?   For example, are you messaging her when she's at work or out with friends or at classes?   

[NuevoYorko]

On 5/12/2024 at 5:09 AM, Lamron300 said:

For example, I have a date today. When we were talking online on the dating app everything was flowing well, now we are on WhatsApp she is either responding in brief or not at all. She has confirmed we are still on for 6pm today but I’m not going into it with a good vibe about her. I usually chat solidly all the way up through till the date. I don’t just go on dates for the sake of it. 

You approach dating in a way that is unlikely to lead to success for you and certainly not for the women you date.   You are constantly in a "testing" mode and not in a real receptive "getting to know" mode.

You multi-date.   And you "chat solidly" with all the women that you have not met yet and are going to meet?   Let me tell you that not everyone is going to do this.  Surely you are aware, since you've been around here.  Most of the group *wisdom*, if you choose to think of it like that, is that the time to get to know the person is after you've first met and both feel like it's worth pursuing further.   Not through consistent text contact leading up.  This is considered a waste of time for many reasons, by many people.

Anyway, you are so "risk averse" that your whole approach is to hedge your bets so that nobody will get "the upper hand" over you, and so that your ego won't get any kind of bruise.

If you're not prepared to take some emotional risks and put yourself in vulnerable positions with women, you really are not in a good place, mentally and emotionally, to date - much less to actually be a good relationship partner.

Edited May 13 by NuevoYorko

[Lamron300]

16 hours ago, basil67 said:

 

Can you define "chat solidly"?   For example, are you messaging her when she's at work or out with friends or at classes?   

A flowing conversation, not necessarily the time of responses as obviously work/social life etc gets in the way. The date went ahead on Sunday, it wasn't bad, was quite enjoyable but I don't think I'll be taking it forward.

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

You approach dating in a way that is unlikely to lead to success for you and certainly not for the women you date.   You are constantly in a "testing" mode and not in a real receptive "getting to know" mode.

You multi-date.   And you "chat solidly" with all the women that you have not met yet and are going to meet?   Let me tell you that not everyone is going to do this.  Surely you are aware, since you've been around here.  Most of the group *wisdom*, if you choose to think of it like that, is that the time to get to know the person is after you've first met and both feel like it's worth pursuing further.   Not through consistent text contact leading up.  This is considered a waste of time for many reasons, by many people.

Anyway, you are so "risk averse" that your whole approach is to hedge your bets so that nobody will get "the upper hand" over you, and so that your ego won't get any kind of bruise.

If you're not prepared to take some emotional risks and put yourself in vulnerable positions with women, you really are not in a good place, mentally and emotionally, to date - much less to actually be a good relationship partner.

I am getting to know people and I am assessing them at the same time. Even a response to a certain line will give me information I need about someone. It is well known I can't use chopsticks so I'll usually joke, ha maybe you can teach me to use chopsticks one day, 9/10 times I'll get the response..sure i'll teach you! if someone said hmm don't want to promise anything as I don't know if we will get along on first date, I would already know they are negative.

For example, I was supposed to go on second date with a woman on Thursday, however, I was sick so had to call it off. She offered to come to my house, cook for me and walk my dogs (all very nice things), however, I can tell she is a platonic dater. When she said she is also sick as well, I said lets cuddle...she said (8 hours later) sorry, I don't know how to respond to that. I did a confused emoji and two days later today she has just messaged me saying 'heya. how are you? hope you're feeling better"'. She is from a different culture and her parents controlled her, she is now 31 and very aloof and socially awkward. I want to tell her today we should cease contact as I'm not looking for anything platonic.

I am 'multi-dating' as I convince myself in my head I'm getting all these dates because I am popular, but in all likelihood, they are low quality options and I'm one of the few people who display patience to engage with them. Not going down this road anymore, just going to be straight to the point with people.

[NuevoYorko]

5 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

Even a response to a certain line will give me information I need about someone. It is well known I can't use chopsticks so I'll usually joke, ha maybe you can teach me to use chopsticks one day, 9/10 times I'll get the response..sure i'll teach you! if someone said hmm don't want to promise anything as I don't know if we will get along on first date, I would already know they are negative.

Thanks,  you've given in the quote above a perfect example of how you are "testing" women and trying, in a very sad kind of way, honestly, to keep some kind of "upper hand."   You're not interested at all in whether someone can teach you how to use chopsticks, and this is a very silly test.  

5 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

For example, I was supposed to go on second date with a woman on Thursday, however, I was sick so had to call it off. She offered to come to my house, cook for me and walk my dogs (all very nice things), however, I can tell she is a platonic dater. When she said she is also sick as well, I said lets cuddle...she said (8 hours later) sorry, I don't know how to respond to that. I did a confused emoji and two days later today she has just messaged me saying 'heya. how are you? hope you're feeling better"'. She is from a different culture and her parents controlled her, she is now 31 and very aloof and socially awkward. I want to tell her today we should cease contact as I'm not looking for anything platonic.

Thank you again - here is another example of your quite circuitous game playing approach to dating.   

Do you seriously think that it is appropriate to say "let's cuddle" and use it as some kind of "test" - with a person you've only been on ONE date with?   I would thing any woman I know would find that pretty weird ... yet you now have her pegged as a "platonic dater" and you intend to tell her so?

I am getting the feeling that these women are kind of dodging a bullet,  I'm sorry to say.   You set things up so that everything is a mine field and they better be minding their P's and Q's because you have secret agendas.   

Is this some stuff you picked up from the PUA days of yore?

5 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

. Not going down this road anymore, just going to be straight to the point with people.

It would be a great idea for you to get straight to the point, rather than ask "trick questions" about things like chopsticks or inappropriate intimacy (I mean, most would think of it that way) in order to come to your own conclusions about people you really do not know.

I have a feeling you have a pretty long road of dating ahead of you if you don't become open to trying things a lot differently.  Nobody likes to be subjected to weird games.   It comes off as controlling.

[basil67]

Further to what @NuevoYorko wrote,

On the chopsticks comment: if a date said "maybe you can teach me someday", I'd interpret as banter and say "haha sure" even if I wasn't planning a future with you.  It's hardly like you're asking me to commit to putting down money for an upcoming holiday with you.    Besides that, if a person hasn't learned chopsticks by the time they are your age, it's because they've never cared enough to bother learning.   Just use a fork!  Nobody cares.

Inviting a gross and sick person to come and cuddle with you when you're also gross and sick is really weird.  Have you learned nothing from COVID?  It's one thing if they are a partner but this is a virtual stranger!!!  The woman didn't get into the conversation because it was an inappropriate request.   I'd totally get the icks if a new date said this to me.

And even if you were both well, it's still weird to say to someone you've been on one date with "let's come to my place and cuddle on the sofa".   Instead, you invite them to something nice for the second date, and if you're both wanting to linger together at the end of the date, you can invite them back for 'Netflix and chill' and see what happens

 

Edited May 14 by basil67

[FredEire]

10 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Thanks,  you've given in the quote above a perfect example of how you are "testing" women and trying, in a very sad kind of way, honestly, to keep some kind of "upper hand."   You're not interested at all in whether someone can teach you how to use chopsticks, and this is a very silly test.  

Thank you again - here is another example of your quite circuitous game playing approach to dating.   

Do you seriously think that it is appropriate to say "let's cuddle" and use it as some kind of "test" - with a person you've only been on ONE date with?   I would thing any woman I know would find that pretty weird ... yet you now have her pegged as a "platonic dater" and you intend to tell her so?

I am getting the feeling that these women are kind of dodging a bullet,  I'm sorry to say.   You set things up so that everything is a mine field and they better be minding their P's and Q's because you have secret agendas.   

Is this some stuff you picked up from the PUA days of yore?

It would be a great idea for you to get straight to the point, rather than ask "trick questions" about things like chopsticks or inappropriate intimacy (I mean, most would think of it that way) in order to come to your own conclusions about people you really do not know.

I have a feeling you have a pretty long road of dating ahead of you if you don't become open to trying things a lot differently.  Nobody likes to be subjected to weird games.   It comes off as controlling.

Yeah pretty much, I think I have a fairly good idea what's going on for OP based on the last few posts. Granted I'm not a psychologist so only an expert will really know but it's my interpretation.

I asked before if OP might be seeking out these kind of women or projecting things onto them and like a lot of stuff it's a bit of both. I believe we subconsciously attract and are attracted to the people who "fit" our personal needs but also our trauma responses, even on OLD where you don't have too much to go on I think there's always small things which catch the eye and build attraction.

I think he may be meeting women who are more aloof and closed off as this "fits" his expectation/fear, going into things thinking "oh god not another platonic dater". Then his indirect communication confirms his bias and the cycle completes again.

I'd say it's well worth figuring out the root of this in therapy as it may well be something going back to childhood. I reckon if you can sort that out and come to terms with it you'll both start attracting more suitable partners and your own behaviour will change leaving a stronger possibility of getting into a solid relationship.

[Lamron300]

13 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Thanks,  you've given in the quote above a perfect example of how you are "testing" women and trying, in a very sad kind of way, honestly, to keep some kind of "upper hand."   You're not interested at all in whether someone can teach you how to use chopsticks, and this is a very silly test.  

Thank you again - here is another example of your quite circuitous game playing approach to dating.   

Do you seriously think that it is appropriate to say "let's cuddle" and use it as some kind of "test" - with a person you've only been on ONE date with?   I would thing any woman I know would find that pretty weird ... yet you now have her pegged as a "platonic dater" and you intend to tell her so?

I am getting the feeling that these women are kind of dodging a bullet,  I'm sorry to say.   You set things up so that everything is a mine field and they better be minding their P's and Q's because you have secret agendas.   

Is this some stuff you picked up from the PUA days of yore?

It would be a great idea for you to get straight to the point, rather than ask "trick questions" about things like chopsticks or inappropriate intimacy (I mean, most would think of it that way) in order to come to your own conclusions about people you really do not know.

I have a feeling you have a pretty long road of dating ahead of you if you don't become open to trying things a lot differently.  Nobody likes to be subjected to weird games.   It comes off as controlling.

Won’t respond to all of this, but respectfully disagree. It’s not a second date in the normal sense as she has been talking to me for around two months. Mostly as she is too busy (so why try and date?). It’s not a test, above I was told I was too passive, now I say what I want (she invited herself to my house? I never even invited her) and that’s a game or manipulative? Not really. She just wants a friend I can tell, so I pushed my luck in a cheeky way as I’ve done lots of times with people and either gotten a positive response 90% of the time or been able to see we aren’t compatible.

On video chat she was telling me she wants to look even younger and I said you’re just 31 and she was like yeah but that’s near peak child bearing age and I’m not even with anyone.. she is just so aloof. She doesn’t owe me anything and I don’t owe her anything, I’m happy I’ve done my due diligence and classed her as a time waster, so she is now on the ignored list. 

I went on a third date yesterday and guess what? She came to my house on the third date! Which she offered to do as I’ve  damaged my foot . And we cuddled and kissed! Everyone is different, but my personality type doesn’t match people who are aloof or introverted as I’m too ‘polite or passive’ to be straight with people. That’s what I’m trying to get at, not sure what a pua is what it is to do with me. I’m entitled to have options and decline options, I’m not forcing anyone to do something. 

 

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

Yeah pretty much, I think I have a fairly good idea what's going on for OP based on the last few posts. Granted I'm not a psychologist so only an expert will really know but it's my interpretation.

I asked before if OP might be seeking out these kind of women or projecting things onto them and like a lot of stuff it's a bit of both. I believe we subconsciously attract and are attracted to the people who "fit" our personal needs but also our trauma responses, even on OLD where you don't have too much to go on I think there's always small things which catch the eye and build attraction.

I think he may be meeting women who are more aloof and closed off as this "fits" his expectation/fear, going into things thinking "oh god not another platonic dater". Then his indirect communication confirms his bias and the cycle completes again.

I'd say it's well worth figuring out the root of this in therapy as it may well be something going back to childhood. I reckon if you can sort that out and come to terms with it you'll both start attracting more suitable partners and your own behaviour will change leaving a stronger possibility of getting into a solid relationship.

With the woman I’m talking about she’s 31, I’m 30. We had solid chat on OLD, but she’s always busy and goes missing for days and then say she needed time on her own.  She told me she wants to date, but also said she is okay by herself. I don’t manifest these people, I didn’t know enough about her and went on one date and she was hilarious in person but also aloof and shy. I’m no longer attracted to her or wish to interact with her, hence I’m not responding to messages. It sounds like I seek out these woman for some sort of pillow from my trauma? I chalk it down to bad dating experience or bad filtering. When she said she’s ok on her own or needed time alone, how in my head did I think in my head, hmm this is someone who is optimistic and open to a relationship, let me plough my valuable time into it? My mistake, won’t happen again. I agreed to a second date maybe out of curiosity/physical attraction and went against my better judgement. If someone invited yourself to your house out of the blue to look after you (her words) and I’ve been speaking to her for around 2 months (although just one date) how is asking for a cuddle weird or too upfront? Like another post has said. I say things which get taken out of context. I’m entitled to rule people out and they are entitled to rule me out. 
 

I’m trying to see chemistry not coax or persuade it. I like people who are spontaneous. Like with the 3 month woman, it wasn’t about physical sex it was about intimacy and chemistry!

I had a third date at my house yesterday, I didn’t have any intention of intimacy, but at the same time I don’t want to be too passive. I’m so desperate to appear correct or not screw up or offend someone, I can not be upfront. I’ve seen from my experiences in just this thread that many people are happy with dates being just dates. I’m not asking poignant questions or gauging people’s intentions of what they’re comfortable or not comfortable with. Then it sort of becomes a game. If I didn’t kiss her would she have kissed me etc. 

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

With the woman I’m talking about she’s 31, I’m 30. We had solid chat on OLD, but she’s always busy and goes missing for days and then say she needed time on her own.  She told me she wants to date, but also said she is okay by herself. I don’t manifest these people, I didn’t know enough about her and went on one date and she was hilarious in person but also aloof and shy. I’m no longer attracted to her or wish to interact with her, hence I’m not responding to messages. It sounds like I seek out these woman for some sort of pillow from my trauma? I chalk it down to bad dating experience or bad filtering. When she said she’s ok on her own or needed time alone, how in my head did I think in my head, hmm this is someone who is optimistic and open to a relationship, let me plough my valuable time into it? My mistake, won’t happen again. I agreed to a second date maybe out of curiosity/physical attraction and went against my better judgement. If someone invited yourself to your house out of the blue to look after you (her words) and I’ve been speaking to her for around 2 months (although just one date) how is asking for a cuddle weird or too upfront? Like another post has said. I say things which get taken out of context. I’m entitled to rule people out and they are entitled to rule me out. 
 

I’m trying to see chemistry not coax or persuade it. I like people who are spontaneous. Like with the 3 month woman, it wasn’t about physical sex it was about intimacy and chemistry!

I had a third date at my house yesterday, I didn’t have any intention of intimacy, but at the same time I don’t want to be too passive. I’m so desperate to appear correct or not screw up or offend someone, I can not be upfront. I’ve seen from my experiences in just this thread that many people are happy with dates being just dates. I’m not asking poignant questions or gauging people’s intentions of what they’re comfortable or not comfortable with. Then it sort of becomes a game. If I didn’t kiss her would she have kissed me etc. 

I'm not saying any of this is intentional, but it definitely seems to be a pattern. There are many cases of women for example who end up in physically abusive relationship after physically abusive relationship, obviously this is not their intention but it happens because something is attracting them to these men.

I wouldn't say I've had many experiences like the ones you're describing, maybe one or two, and I've dated a lot of people. For me thats because it's not my pattern to date these kinds of women, I have other ones which I'm trying to work on.

There's seems to be a lot of second guessing in your relationships, a kind of wall between the two of you that leaves you guessing and allows the "game" that you are describing to commence. This wouldn't be the same for everyone.

A family is a system, if a new member comes along the system will adapt and change to accommodate the new person and the person will adapt and change themselves to fit it, however healthy or otherwise that system is. Similarly a relationship is a system of two, people will seek out those who "fit" the relationship they have with themselves as in their pre-existing desires and expectations, and then the other person will adapt in whatever way to fit that system. As I've said I'm not an expert but it's what I've learnt through my years of family and relationship-based therapy.

At the end of the day it all starts with yourself, so I don't think lamenting dating in general or the women you're meeting is going to get you very far.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, Lamron300 said:

I’m so desperate to appear correct or not screw up or offend someone, I can not be upfront. 

You're undermining yourself at every turn.

You are trying to manage people's responses to you, when what IMO we should be doing when dating is letting ourselves be known.   I believe that you, like most people, want to ultimately be with someone who knows you and wants you with all your good AND not great qualities.  How can this happen if you're trying to orchestrate what they think of you?

On top of this, you are "desperate" to not let anyone hurt your feelings at all.  Your self protection is keeping anything real from happenig.

It all boils down to you spending all this energy trying to control what is out of your control.  And you are inadvertently selecting AGAINST women who you would probably find to be relationship material for you because in general these women would pick up on your "game" (sorry to use that word - I don't think that you're intentionally playing games, but when all is said and done, you are)  and not be around for any of it.   You might even steer clear of such women because you would not be able to "manage" things with them.  They would be choosing, or not choosing YOU, rather than you being in control of all the dynamics like you are working so desperately to achieve.

[basil67]

20 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

It’s not a second date in the normal sense as she has been talking to me for around two months. 

You've just wasted six weeks on this woman!  Don't ever waste your time waiting for someone who can't make time for you 

[FredEire]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You've just wasted six weeks on this woman!  Don't ever waste your time waiting for someone who can't make time for you 

Indeed, unless youre in different cities or countries or something there's no good reason to talk for six weeks without meeting for a coffee if someone is interested.

I feel a lot of men in particular will pursue something that's clearly pointless because the girl is beautiful or they are getting desperate. The mindset I have is focus on hobbies and things will come along and if they don't for a while then hey that's ok.

But chatting idly with someone for 6 weeks isn't a good use of time, there's other more worthwhile people. If she's only half-interested it's her loss, not worth pursuing.

[Lamron300]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:13 AM, FredEire said:

Indeed, unless youre in different cities or countries or something there's no good reason to talk for six weeks without meeting for a coffee if someone is interested.

I feel a lot of men in particular will pursue something that's clearly pointless because the girl is beautiful or they are getting desperate. The mindset I have is focus on hobbies and things will come along and if they don't for a while then hey that's ok.

But chatting idly with someone for 6 weeks isn't a good use of time, there's other more worthwhile people. If she's only half-interested it's her loss, not worth pursuing.

We had one date in that 6 weeks, and tried to arrange another one but I was sick. She always did seem 'busy'. Anyway, I stopped responding to her as she is a platonic dater. 

[Lamron300]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:48 PM, NuevoYorko said:

You're undermining yourself at every turn.

You are trying to manage people's responses to you, when what IMO we should be doing when dating is letting ourselves be known.   I believe that you, like most people, want to ultimately be with someone who knows you and wants you with all your good AND not great qualities.  How can this happen if you're trying to orchestrate what they think of you?

On top of this, you are "desperate" to not let anyone hurt your feelings at all.  Your self protection is keeping anything real from happenig.

It all boils down to you spending all this energy trying to control what is out of your control.  And you are inadvertently selecting AGAINST women who you would probably find to be relationship material for you because in general these women would pick up on your "game" (sorry to use that word - I don't think that you're intentionally playing games, but when all is said and done, you are)  and not be around for any of it.   You might even steer clear of such women because you would not be able to "manage" things with them.  They would be choosing, or not choosing YOU, rather than you being in control of all the dynamics like you are working so desperately to achieve.

Because women I am meeting are manipulative. For example, the woman I was 'dating' for 3 months. After the first date, I dropped her home. She apologised for not inviting me in after first date, she said 'she is traditional'. I was confused and said why are you apologising, I didn't expect to be invited in. Then as you know, during the course of dating she would say things like 'You've been a gentlemen so far, men usually try and rush me into bed, but you can't stop being a gentleman now'. Then when I would invite her to my house, numerous times, nothing would happen. So in my head I thought okay, I don't want her to think I'm like other guys, as thats not what I am after, but after 8/9/10/11/12 dates and nothing had happened, I gave up mentally. The truth came out when she said she was nervous but excited to come to my house, she said what if you don't like me naked or something along those lines. I'm 30, she is 34. Everyone has insecurities, but I don't have time for games, I really don't. I'm not going to coax/persuade/convince someone to have intimacy for the rest of my life. In the past, when there has been an attraction, this happens within first few dates. You then start to think what you want is wrong and then become numb. 

The second girl, she arrived 90 minutes late for a dinner date. I sent her the invitation which clearly said 5.30pm, she didn't get there till 7-7.30pm. Conversation was decent, but she displayed her aloofness. She is 31 and it is clear she has never dated anyone. She says stuff like I don't understand flirting and she doesn't understand compliments. We had been talking for weeks, but she is always busy ( I run two businesses, I guarantee i am busier than her, but I make time)  Anyway as you know, she invited herself to my house, I said lets cuddle and she said sorry I didn't know what to respond to that. Apart from all the other things, it just made me realise she is a bad fit so I've stopped responding to her messages.

I know what I want, the problem is you have to wade through so many dates and unsuitable people till you find it. I am not naturally a ruthless person, but I feel now I have to be. I am literally wasting time. 

[Gebidozo]

On 5/11/2024 at 6:46 PM, Lamron300 said:

But my ‘niceness’ is taking advantage of. For example, she would say very sexual things but when it came to in person, nothing would happen despite me trying. She was content in going to every restaurant in London and cinema etc. She said I’m such a gentleman and I haven’t pressured her to do anything, which made me question what would have counted as pressure? She says men usually try and rush her into bed, but now I’m doubting that as 15 dates is way too long. 

Nobody is taking advantage of you. What you’re describing is not “niceness”, it’s just passive behavior, lack of initiative and passion.

Not being intimate with a woman after 15 dates is pretty insane. I can imagine something like this surviving only within a very strict, conservative, fundamentally religious environment, with both parties being very serious and committed and determined not to have sex before marriage.

Under normal circumstances, this feels more like a lack of appreciation of the woman’s beauty, and an insistent self-invitation to friedzone.

Edited May 19 by Gebidozo

[Gebidozo]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:16 PM, NuevoYorko said:

If you're not prepared to take some emotional risks and put yourself in vulnerable positions with women, you really are not in a good place, mentally and emotionally, to date - much less to actually be a good relationship partner.

This.

OP, please heed these words, I couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

Because women I am meeting are manipulative.

I don’t see anything manipulative in those women. They are just insecure and weird. I get the same vibe from your posts, OP.

Sorry, but if you want to date attractive, interesting, confident women, you should stop this OLD nonsense, stop this horrible multi-dating thing you’re doing, drop the calculated approach to dating, and embrace real romance.