How do I overcome the complications of dating and avoid drama?

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Nobody is taking advantage of you. What you’re describing is not “niceness”, it’s just passive behavior, lack of initiative and passion.

Not being intimate with a woman after 15 dates is pretty insane. I can imagine something like this surviving only within a very strict, conservative, fundamentally religious environment, with both parties being very serious and committed and determined not to have sex before marriage.

Under normal circumstances, this feels more like a lack of appreciation of the woman’s beauty, and an insistent self-invitation to friedzone.

It is taking advantage. It is equating wanting intimacy with not being a gentleman. She was organising holidays, outdoor cinema trips etc, till I got fed up and put an end to the madness. I initiated many times, nothing different to what I usually do with previous partners. Why should it completely change for her?  She was insecure, so don't try and put it on me. 

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

I don’t see anything manipulative in those women. They are just insecure and weird. I get the same vibe from your posts, OP.

Sorry, but if you want to date attractive, interesting, confident women, you should stop this OLD nonsense, stop this horrible multi-dating thing you’re doing, drop the calculated approach to dating, and embrace real romance.

Insecure, weird...manipulative, doesn't really matter. All not suitable for me, I'm not into what they are into. I have wasted time yes, but I've put an end to it. I agree OLD is not for me. It is just a fact of life. The people I speak to are single for a reason and I don't want to be a part of it. This isn't a rant, but a realisation. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is madness. 

[Weezy1973]

16 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

The people I speak to are single for a reason and I don't want to be a part of it.

Well you’re certainly single for a reason.

[Lamron300]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Well you’re certainly single for a reason.

Yes. OLD. I am meeting loads of people, which isn't a good thing, because it means I haven't found what I am looking for. 

Edited May 19 by Lamron300
added text

[Gebidozo]

8 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

It is taking advantage. It is equating wanting intimacy with not being a gentleman. She was organising holidays, outdoor cinema trips etc, till I got fed up and put an end to the madness. I initiated many times, nothing different to what I usually do with previous partners. Why should it completely change for her?  She was insecure, so don't try and put it on me. 

You went on 15 dates with that woman and there was no intimacy. Question: why did you continue to go on those dates? You couldn’t figure out after the 3rd or the 4th date that she wasn’t into that? What took you so long to realize that?

It’s like someone who keep stubbornly shopping in the same place for the same product, even though the first couple of times he shopped there the product was bad and overpriced. Anyone would just go shop somewhere else. Instead, you went there 15 times and then went all indignant, blaming the shop owner for taking advantage of you.

No, there was no taking advantage here. You and that woman clearly had incompatible dating goals, but instead of letting her go and moving on, you insisted on trying to change her to fit your preferences. 

[basil67]

9 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

Yes. OLD. I am meeting loads of people, which isn't a good thing, because it means I haven't found what I am looking for. 

If other people can meet partners on OLD, OLD is not the problem.   The problem is somewhere in your approach

 

Edited May 20 by basil67

[Lamron300]

28 minutes ago, basil67 said:

If other people can meet partners on OLD, OLD is not the problem.   The problem is somewhere in your approach

 

I can meet a partner, they aren’t suitable, that’s the issue. Like the woman I was dating for 3 months wanted to enter an official relationship with me. I wasn’t into it as how can you want a relationship and to book a holiday together etc and there is no intimacy?

The issue with OLD is there is 17 men for every 3 women. So from the start the odds are skewed. You then have a high proportion of people on there for validation, on a rebound or just for attention. 

 

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

You went on 15 dates with that woman and there was no intimacy. Question: why did you continue to go on those dates? You couldn’t figure out after the 3rd or the 4th date that she wasn’t into that? What took you so long to realize that?

It’s like someone who keep stubbornly shopping in the same place for the same product, even though the first couple of times he shopped there the product was bad and overpriced. Anyone would just go shop somewhere else. Instead, you went there 15 times and then went all indignant, blaming the shop owner for taking advantage of you.

No, there was no taking advantage here. You and that woman clearly had incompatible dating goals, but instead of letting her go and moving on, you insisted on trying to change her to fit your preferences. 

She told me she wanted everything I wanted, which was a lie. 

[basil67]

52 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

I can meet a partner, they aren’t suitable, that’s the issue. Like the woman I was dating for 3 months wanted to enter an official relationship with me. I wasn’t into it as how can you want a relationship and to book a holiday together etc and there is no intimacy?

The issue with OLD is there is 17 men for every 3 women. So from the start the odds are skewed. You then have a high proportion of people on there for validation, on a rebound or just for attention. 

 

You are the one who chose to date her for 3 months even though you weren't getting your needs met.   It's not her fault that you stuck it out for so long.

Yes, the odds might be skewed, but you're meeting plenty of women.  But you're also playing games (like the silly chopstick conversation) trying to catch them out and see if they are going to stick around. This is nuts!    At this point, you're so risk averse (not risking putting time into someone/not risking breaking up with someone when it needs to be done) that you're self sabotaging.

 

[NuevoYorko]

It is impossible for anything to "work out" with all the roadblocks, games and circuitous testing stuff you're putting up between you and women you meet or date.  

And then you invariably twist it so it's their "fault" and label them "platonic daters."   

They are likely not platonic with everyone they date.   I get the impression that you are good looking and in many ways seem like a potential match but the women are getting red flags and stay guarded with you.   They are probably waiting to figure out what they are picking up on before feeling comfortable.  But the positives keep them engaged for a while. 

I am sure you do not have bad intentions but all the things you describe depict you as a controlling person.  Not what a healthy woman is going to knowingly sign up for.

Until you are willing and able to be vulnerable and put yourself out there without all the bizarre conditions, you are not a good prospect for a healthy relationship with a healthy woman.

[Lamron300]

On 5/20/2024 at 8:11 AM, basil67 said:

You are the one who chose to date her for 3 months even though you weren't getting your needs met.   It's not her fault that you stuck it out for so long.

Yes, the odds might be skewed, but you're meeting plenty of women.  But you're also playing games (like the silly chopstick conversation) trying to catch them out and see if they are going to stick around. This is nuts!    At this point, you're so risk averse (not risking putting time into someone/not risking breaking up with someone when it needs to be done) that you're self sabotaging.

 

It is her fault, because it was manipulation. I'm not on OLD for sex, it is the exact opposite. I'm 30 years old, last time I went to a club was in September 2023, women were treating me like a piece of meat. Literally a random girl came up to me and just stuck her tongue in my mouth and started kissing me (disgusting). If I just wanted a hookup, I would just go clubbing and meet people into that sort of scene. So I exercise a lot of patience when I first meet a woman as I am trying to see if we will get on long term. The woman I dated for 3 months seemed like a breathe of fresh air as she was always organising dates and new activities I hadn't done before. This made a change as usually when I meet someone after 3/4 dates its like ermmm what do you want to do next time?? I realised she was only organising all these dates and activities to avoid getting intimate due to her own insecurities, to do everything to avoid intimacy. 

[Lamron300]

17 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

It is impossible for anything to "work out" with all the roadblocks, games and circuitous testing stuff you're putting up between you and women you meet or date.  

And then you invariably twist it so it's their "fault" and label them "platonic daters."   

They are likely not platonic with everyone they date.   I get the impression that you are good looking and in many ways seem like a potential match but the women are getting red flags and stay guarded with you.   They are probably waiting to figure out what they are picking up on before feeling comfortable.  But the positives keep them engaged for a while. 

I am sure you do not have bad intentions but all the things you describe depict you as a controlling person.  Not what a healthy woman is going to knowingly sign up for.

Until you are willing and able to be vulnerable and put yourself out there without all the bizarre conditions, you are not a good prospect for a healthy relationship with a healthy woman.

I'm not controlling at all....how can I be passive and controlling? seems like you can't make your mind up. I'm going on a new path, I am telling people what I want, if they don't want the same thing, fine we go are seperate ways, no hard feelings. I am not wasting time with these OLD people anymore. You're too busy? Fine, so am I! Cya!. They are platonic daters by their words and actions and I have figured it out and cut off ties? so it isn't like I am forcing anyone to do anything. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Lamron300 said:

It is her fault, because it was manipulation. I'm not on OLD for sex, it is the exact opposite. I'm 30 years old, last time I went to a club was in September 2023, women were treating me like a piece of meat. Literally a random girl came up to me and just stuck her tongue in my mouth and started kissing me (disgusting). If I just wanted a hookup, I would just go clubbing and meet people into that sort of scene. So I exercise a lot of patience when I first meet a woman as I am trying to see if we will get on long term. The woman I dated for 3 months seemed like a breathe of fresh air as she was always organising dates and new activities I hadn't done before. This made a change as usually when I meet someone after 3/4 dates its like ermmm what do you want to do next time?? I realised she was only organising all these dates and activities to avoid getting intimate due to her own insecurities, to do everything to avoid intimacy. 

She didn't manipulate you.  Rather, she simply didn't show an interest in sex and you accepted it for months. 

If sex is important to you, find a midline between kissing a stranger and spending many months with no sex.  And your analysis of her behaviour is nothing more than assumption.  I think it's more likely that you were wasting time in the friendzone

 

 

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, basil67 said:

She didn't manipulate you.  Rather, she simply didn't show an interest in sex and you accepted it for months. 

If sex is important to you, find a midline between kissing a stranger and spending many months with no sex.  And your analysis of her behaviour is nothing more than assumption.  I think it's more likely that you were wasting time in the friendzone

 

 

Yes manipulation is tugging on heartstrings and using putdowns to get what you want. This woman just didn't seem sure what she wanted and unavailable. But it was your choice to see her for 3 months, you could have walked away at any point. Own your mistakes.

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

She didn't manipulate you.  Rather, she simply didn't show an interest in sex and you accepted it for months. 

Seriously, if she was really a "platonic dater" (which seems to be the label hung on any woman who does not come on sexually strong towards the OP within his specific timeline) she had good reasons to think that she'd found her perfect match.   

OP:  It's a big red flag when anyone is having issues in their life - especially when these are recurring - and they aggressively place "blame" on the other person or entity (like  OLD) for this.  

If you won't address your own part in these outcomes, and do it in a way that is conducive to nurturing connections with women you might find worthwhile, you are going to just stay like you are.  YOU.  The "platonic daters" and other women who did not pass your chopstick tests or whatever are not necessarily stuck.

Edited May 21 by NuevoYorko

[Lamron300]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:22 AM, basil67 said:

She didn't manipulate you.  Rather, she simply didn't show an interest in sex and you accepted it for months. 

If sex is important to you, find a midline between kissing a stranger and spending many months with no sex.  And your analysis of her behaviour is nothing more than assumption.  I think it's more likely that you were wasting time in the friendzone

 

 

It isn’t an assumption, she wanted to be exclusive with me and was talking to her cousin about what our kids would look like…yet we hadn’t even been intimate.

Anyway, things changed last night as things progressed with the woman I’ve been on four dates with, although this brings a new set of dilemmas. 

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

It isn’t an assumption, she wanted to be exclusive with me and was talking to her cousin about what our kids would look like…yet we hadn’t even been intimate.

Anyway, things changed last night as things progressed with the woman I’ve been on four dates with, although this brings a new set of dilemmas. 

Is that the woman you said didn't have great social skills?

Why the dilemmas, if you've now been intimate with her that surely means she's not a platonic dater? Are you not really interested in her?

[Lamron300]

19 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Is that the woman you said didn't have great social skills?

Why the dilemmas, if you've now been intimate with her that surely means she's not a platonic dater? Are you not really interested in her?

No, this isn't the woman with poor social skills, I only went on one date with her. She invited herself round my house for proposed second date, which didn't happen and I have been ignoring her messages. There was the 3 month woman, the poor social skills woman and this woman.

This woman I had already been on three dates with, yesterday was the fourth. The dilemma is, if I hadn't been multi-dating, I wouldn't have met her and I would probably have been taking a long time off dating after the disappointment of the 3 month scenario. I now use this as evidence to confirm my actions of multi-dating, which isn't really something I have time for or want to do, but seems necessary. In terms of sex, I don't care about that, its not why I like this woman.It is more the more go with the flow attitude. I don't have to double think or triple think with her. A lot of questions I asked to you on this forum, I would have been better off asking the 3 month woman directly, but I don't want actions/words to be misconstrued. 

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

No, this isn't the woman with poor social skills, I only went on one date with her. She invited herself round my house for proposed second date, which didn't happen and I have been ignoring her messages. There was the 3 month woman, the poor social skills woman and this woman.

This woman I had already been on three dates with, yesterday was the fourth. The dilemma is, if I hadn't been multi-dating, I wouldn't have met her and I would probably have been taking a long time off dating after the disappointment of the 3 month scenario. I now use this as evidence to confirm my actions of multi-dating, which isn't really something I have time for or want to do, but seems necessary. In terms of sex, I don't care about that, its not why I like this woman.It is more the more go with the flow attitude. I don't have to double think or triple think with her. A lot of questions I asked to you on this forum, I would have been better off asking the 3 month woman directly, but I don't want actions/words to be misconstrued. 

So that seems positive, what's the dilemma?

Don't worry about things being misconstrued, it's better to just speak your mind gently and honestly than leave things unsaid.

I don't think there's anything wrong with multi-dating personally, if you end up meeting someone you want to be with in the end. Some people prefer to just date one person at a time but I find it can get you caught up overthinking things. It's personal preference I guess.

[Lamron300]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

So that seems positive, what's the dilemma?

Don't worry about things being misconstrued, it's better to just speak your mind gently and honestly than leave things unsaid.

I don't think there's anything wrong with multi-dating personally, if you end up meeting someone you want to be with in the end. Some people prefer to just date one person at a time but I find it can get you caught up overthinking things. It's personal preference I guess.

The dilemma is clear, I was accused of being passive etc, but it shows that I just wasn't compatible with those other two women. I didn't do anything or act differently than I usually do. There wasn't any pre-planning. She invited me to her house for dinner and things happened naturally. I was second guessing myself with the other people. This doesn't mean this woman is perfect or I'm perfect, but what it highlights is you HAVE to multi-date ( I must have been on at least ten dates till I met her). Apart from the fact we get along and have a similar personality, she just seems 'normal' hasn't said anything weird or melancholy. That is a low bar and that bar is because of OLD. I should expect that at a minimum.

I now feel like she is on a pedestal and the dynamics are different. Sure there are a ton of potential dates out there, but the pool is rather poor and because she seems 'normal' in my head I feel I may come across too keen or enthusiastic more than I would be if I met someone organically.

What i am trying to say is, that is the whole dilemma. I meet people, who aren't suited for me and then I hold on too long. The 3 months could have been cut down by at least a month for example.  

[FredEire]

34 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

The dilemma is clear, I was accused of being passive etc, but it shows that I just wasn't compatible with those other two women. I didn't do anything or act differently than I usually do. There wasn't any pre-planning. She invited me to her house for dinner and things happened naturally. I was second guessing myself with the other people. This doesn't mean this woman is perfect or I'm perfect, but what it highlights is you HAVE to multi-date ( I must have been on at least ten dates till I met her). Apart from the fact we get along and have a similar personality, she just seems 'normal' hasn't said anything weird or melancholy. That is a low bar and that bar is because of OLD. I should expect that at a minimum.

I now feel like she is on a pedestal and the dynamics are different. Sure there are a ton of potential dates out there, but the pool is rather poor and because she seems 'normal' in my head I feel I may come across too keen or enthusiastic more than I would be if I met someone organically.

What i am trying to say is, that is the whole dilemma. I meet people, who aren't suited for me and then I hold on too long. The 3 months could have been cut down by at least a month for example.  

So it's not a dilemma but more you want to say you have proved people here wrong and the problem was OLD.

I mean I hope this particular thing goes well, that's the aim after all. But you barely know her at this point and so it remains to be seen how it develops.

I don't think anyone was accusing you of anything but merely making observations, that's what this forum is here for after all. And I don't think the fact that you slept with this woman means they were wrong.

No, people don't HAVE to multi-date. It just works for some people and doesn't work for others. That's up to the individual to decide.

[NuevoYorko]

Are you aware that there are many, many people who will not have sex before they are in a committed relationship?    And who will NEVER have sex with someone unless the two are exclusive together?   NEVER have sex with somebody who is multi-dating.

You seem outraged that the 3 month lady was not "intimate" and you are accusing her of manipulating you and being a "platonic dater" etc.  

Maybe she really liked you but was waiting for "the exclusivity talk" before getting more intimate with you.  That is COMMON, dude.  

Meanwhile you are multi-dating, looking for a woman who is ready to deliver what you want, how you want, on your timeline.  And if you find one who delivers that, YOU then feel entitled to make YOUR decision.  

That is your prerogative, and it's not inherently wrong to want to have sex before you commit to somebody, but please be very clear that there are many women and also men who will NOT do that.  I would not do it.  

Sex is reserved for serious committed relationships for lots of people.  

You are not compatible with women like that, obviously.  But don't label women as manipulative or "platonic daters" or whatever just because they don't want to have sex with a man who is playing the field looking for all possible options.  

How would you feel about women who are multi-dating and having multiple sexual partners at the same time as they are dating you?   Would that bother you?   

Edited May 22 by NuevoYorko

[Lamron300]

On 5/22/2024 at 4:07 PM, NuevoYorko said:

Are you aware that there are many, many people who will not have sex before they are in a committed relationship?    And who will NEVER have sex with someone unless the two are exclusive together?   NEVER have sex with somebody who is multi-dating.

You seem outraged that the 3 month lady was not "intimate" and you are accusing her of manipulating you and being a "platonic dater" etc.  

Maybe she really liked you but was waiting for "the exclusivity talk" before getting more intimate with you.  That is COMMON, dude.  

Meanwhile you are multi-dating, looking for a woman who is ready to deliver what you want, how you want, on your timeline.  And if you find one who delivers that, YOU then feel entitled to make YOUR decision.  

That is your prerogative, and it's not inherently wrong to want to have sex before you commit to somebody, but please be very clear that there are many women and also men who will NOT do that.  I would not do it.  

Sex is reserved for serious committed relationships for lots of people.  

You are not compatible with women like that, obviously.  But don't label women as manipulative or "platonic daters" or whatever just because they don't want to have sex with a man who is playing the field looking for all possible options.  

How would you feel about women who are multi-dating and having multiple sexual partners at the same time as they are dating you?   Would that bother you?   

I wouldn't get into a relationship with someone without knowing there is sexual chemistry. The particular woman I am spoken about talked about sex and wanting sex, yet nothing happened. I never told her I was exclusive with her,  this being the reason. It felt like something was missing and I couldn't put my finger on it. She said I've been a 'gentleman', which for me is manipulation. Not wanting sex doesn't make someone a gentleman and okay if I wait 8 dates I am a gentleman, if I don't want to wait 15 dates I am not? 

No, she talked to her cousin about what our babies would look like, was in process of booking a holiday for us etc. She wanted exclusivity and expected it, but its the wrong way round. I felt like almost a platonic freindship, except she always wanted to kiss and hold hands. Its not about sex in itself, but attraction and progression of a relationship. It just didn't feel right, coming to my house 2/3 times and nothing happening.

And I am not looking for all possible options. I would commit to someone very quickly if the vibe and energy was right. Dating is exhausting. For example, with the woman I am dating, I finished work at 6.30pm, had to get dog sitter and then travelled to her house which took me 1.5 hours, so nearly got there at 9pm on a weekday. I run two businesses and i am very busy, so the idea I have lots of time to date isn't correct. The reason I multi-date is it has helped me weed out people who aren't suitable. 15 dates with no intimacy for me, isn't acceptable. My whole post would probably have been a rant about this in the past, if I didn't have other options.  But that came out wrong, it isn't a game to me. I don't want to mess people about or be messed about, I would give an honest answer if asked.

In regards to your question, it would or wouldn't bother me based on the terms of our dating. If I was to accept something casual, then thats different. If someone said they wanted something long term and it was like ok we can do whatever we want till the second we have an exclusivity talk, then I wouldn't be pleased. 

Also, I hate OLD speak such as exclusivity. It is a false economy. A guy with very little options is likely to be more keen to be exclusive than someone who has multiple options. It doesn't mean their heart is in the right place. If people naturally feel a relationship has progressed and they want to have titles, thats different. I know its unlikely to expect I match with someone today and I am the only person they are speaking to. They haven't just been waiting on the app for me to come along.

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

I wouldn't get into a relationship with someone without knowing there is sexual chemistry. The particular woman I am spoken about talked about sex and wanting sex, yet nothing happened. I never told her I was exclusive with her,  this being the reason. It felt like something was missing and I couldn't put my finger on it. She said I've been a 'gentleman', which for me is manipulation. Not wanting sex doesn't make someone a gentleman and okay if I wait 8 dates I am a gentleman, if I don't want to wait 15 dates I am not? 

Let me get this straight.

You were dating several women at once. You never expressed any commitment to this woman. You were never exclusive with her. You never told her you were exclusive with her. Yet at the same time you hoped to take advantage of her serious intentions and have sex with her.

If the above is true, then how dare you call her manipulative? 

[Lamron300]

2 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Let me get this straight.

You were dating several women at once. You never expressed any commitment to this woman. You were never exclusive with her. You never told her you were exclusive with her. Yet at the same time you hoped to take advantage of her serious intentions and have sex with her.

If the above is true, then how dare you call her manipulative? 

I didn’t hope to take any advantage of her serious intentions. I would never get serious with someone without having sex as how are you going to know if you’re compatible long term? Her serious intentions were OTT as most people would understand it’s strange to ask me to book a holiday with you and book dates in July in the future etc when the relationship hasn’t progressed. Let me be clear, it’s not about the sex, it’s about the attraction and chemistry. For example, with the woman I’m dating now, just because we had sex, doesn’t mean every time we meet it will happen. Even if we went 9 dates in a row with nothing happening I wouldn’t mind because we’ve established when it feels natural it will happen. We never talked about sex prior to the event. 
 

With the woman of 3 months she would talk about sex and then nothing would happen. I am not going to repeatedly invite someone to my house like some sort of pest. I had hoped things would develop but she wanted to dangle the carrot of intimacy without anything happening. I think she just enjoyed the companionship but didn’t see things holistically. Like I said, I detest the notion when she said I’m a gentleman for waiting to have sex, because even if we did have sex, doesn’t mean I’m not a gentleman. It’s not some sort of reward. 

Multi-dating has sort of backfired on me as instead of relishing the fact I’m meeting people more compatible, I’m lamenting the fact I wasted time in the past. I really dislike OLD but with such a busy work schedule it’s hard to get 5 minutes to think, let alone meet someone organically.