How do I overcome the complications of dating and avoid drama?

[Lamron300]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:43 AM, ZA Dater said:

The problem is inherently people are complicated and no two people are alike you you will always have complications. You can go on a five dates with five different people and reach different conclusions about each one..

If you can find good moments, enjoy them!

But I feel like I’m meeting the same person over and over again and it’s not my fault. I’m in a complicated situation. I’ve been on 13 dates with a woman over 3 months. She has stayed round my house twice. No intimacy. I’m not one to coerce/persuade or make uncomfortable around the topic. In discussion over text she has talked about being intimate, but never comes to fruition and doesn’t seem to bother her. We’ve been out for so many dinners, cinema, comedy clubs.. which is all great but not really helping establish long term compatibility. Situations like this in the past have always ended badly. I don’t want to suddenly stop talking to her but it’s an uncomfortable subject to bring up. I don’t want anyone to do something because they think ooh that will make them stay around or to make things not awkward. 

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

But I feel like I’m meeting the same person over and over again and it’s not my fault. I’m in a complicated situation. I’ve been on 13 dates with a woman over 3 months. She has stayed round my house twice. No intimacy. I’m not one to coerce/persuade or make uncomfortable around the topic. In discussion over text she has talked about being intimate, but never comes to fruition and doesn’t seem to bother her. We’ve been out for so many dinners, cinema, comedy clubs.. which is all great but not really helping establish long term compatibility. Situations like this in the past have always ended badly. I don’t want to suddenly stop talking to her but it’s an uncomfortable subject to bring up. I don’t want anyone to do something because they think ooh that will make them stay around or to make things not awkward. 

I would personally think she's just not really that into you after this many dates.

Usually if there's interest in my experience the girl will move things towards intimacy herself after 3/4 dates max.

I've had a couple of situations like this but any time it's happened the girl was just feeling a bit lonely and liked the company, she wanted a friend and didn't really want to be dating me.

There may be a specific reason why she's hesitant but I would find a tactful and respectful way to ask if you're going to move things forward and if not just leave it.

Edited April 28 by FredEire

[Lamron300]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

I would personally think she's just not really that into you after this many dates.

Usually if there's interest in my experience the girl will move things towards intimacy herself after 3/4 dates max.

I've had a couple of situations like this but any time it's happened the girl was just feeling a bit lonely and liked the company, she wanted a friend and didn't really want to be dating me.

This is what is confusing. She wants to book a holiday with me (her idea) said she wish we met earlier as she wants me to be her +1 for the wedding she is going to. Either way, as you said.. does it really matter the reason? I just feel like she is either aloof or doesn’t care. The only place we are going to be intimate is my house as I live on my own and she is like me very busy with work so I’m not going to invite her round all the time, particularly in the week as there is no chance (although I wouldn’t mind). I would like a female perspective on it as I don’t want to be made out to be the bad guy. 13 dates over 3 months is long enough to establish intimacy (if desired). For my part, I have mentioned it playfully, but I’m not going to be blunt and say let’s go upstairs and have sex. She is now going on holiday for 2 weeks so she knew this weekend when she slept over was the time for it to happen. Doesn’t seem bothered. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

This is what is confusing. She wants to book a holiday with me (her idea) said she wish we met earlier as she wants me to be her +1 for the wedding she is going to. Either way, as you said.. does it really matter the reason? I just feel like she is either aloof or doesn’t care. The only place we are going to be intimate is my house as I live on my own and she is like me very busy with work so I’m not going to invite her round all the time, particularly in the week as there is no chance (although I wouldn’t mind). I would like a female perspective on it as I don’t want to be made out to be the bad guy. 13 dates over 3 months is long enough to establish intimacy (if desired). For my part, I have mentioned it playfully, but I’m not going to be blunt and say let’s go upstairs and have sex. She is now going on holiday for 2 weeks so she knew this weekend when she slept over was the time for it to happen. Doesn’t seem bothered. 

You ask how to avoid complications and drama of dating.  The answer is to recognise when things aren't going as you'd hope and end it.

I'm a woman and I would have walked away from this situation long before it got to the three month mark.  It's really important to be your own strongest advocate.

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

This is what is confusing. She wants to book a holiday with me (her idea) said she wish we met earlier as she wants me to be her +1 for the wedding she is going to. Either way, as you said.. does it really matter the reason? I just feel like she is either aloof or doesn’t care. The only place we are going to be intimate is my house as I live on my own and she is like me very busy with work so I’m not going to invite her round all the time, particularly in the week as there is no chance (although I wouldn’t mind). I would like a female perspective on it as I don’t want to be made out to be the bad guy. 13 dates over 3 months is long enough to establish intimacy (if desired). For my part, I have mentioned it playfully, but I’m not going to be blunt and say let’s go upstairs and have sex. She is now going on holiday for 2 weeks so she knew this weekend when she slept over was the time for it to happen. Doesn’t seem bothered. 

Yes so as Basil said I would end it. A relationship without sex is a friendship and it seems she may be looking for that but you're not

[Lamron300]

16 hours ago, basil67 said:

You ask how to avoid complications and drama of dating.  The answer is to recognise when things aren't going as you'd hope and end it.

I'm a woman and I would have walked away from this situation long before it got to the three month mark.  It's really important to be your own strongest advocate.

What would her reasons be? I don’t want to ask her as there is no point but I don’t understand why she wants to do all the ‘nice stuff’ like go on holiday together, hold my hand etc but doesn’t seem bothered about intimacy. I want to avoid this in the future with people I meet as this has happened at least 3 times. I’ve got reasonably fed up and things ended. 

[FredEire]

27 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

What would her reasons be? I don’t want to ask her as there is no point but I don’t understand why she wants to do all the ‘nice stuff’ like go on holiday together, hold my hand etc but doesn’t seem bothered about intimacy. I want to avoid this in the future with people I meet as this has happened at least 3 times. I’ve got reasonably fed up and things ended. 

Fear of intimacy probably, physical and/or emotional. She wants a boyfriend without the hassle of actually getting close to him sexually and emotionally, in other words an emotional support friend. This probably feels comfortable for her and gives her company while still keeping her distance.

This may be a "good fit" for you because of your own fear of intimacy, you keep meeting similar women because it's somehow safe and doesn't challenge your fears.

I say this as I feel we have a lot in common in terms of dating experiences currently and through working with a therapist this is pretty much the conclusion I came to working with him. But if course that's through my own lens of the situation, so just a thought.

Edited April 29 by FredEire

[Lamron300]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Fear of intimacy probably, physical and/or emotional. She wants a boyfriend without the hassle of actually getting close to him sexually and emotionally, in other words an emotional support friend. This probably feels comfortable for her and gives her company while still keeping her distance.

This may be a "good fit" for you because of your own fear of intimacy, you keep meeting similar women because it's somehow safe and doesn't challenge your fears.

I say this as I feel we have a lot in common in terms of dating experiences currently and through working with a therapist this is pretty much the conclusion I came to working with him. But if course that's through my own lens of the situation, so just a thought.

I think my fear is of upsetting people/ fear of having to start again with someone fresh after time invested. In this case; it will be easy as we aren’t in a relationship. I feel more than justified. I think 3/4 months of dating and no intimacy paints a bleak future. I even gave it one more go today when making a joke about a bull riding event and she just replied ha ha ha. I don’t want to feel resentment towards anyone, it’s not worth it. But at the same time, I do feel like I’ve wasted time on her. I have other dates with people lined up but it’s now putting me off as I’m thinking what if they are similar. I understand from a woman’s point of view that there are men out there who want intimacy straight away and then disappear. I then overcompensate by being patient for ages and they then accept I can be manipulated or ‘kept at bay’. I’m not satisfied with her and I don’t want to spend anymore time with her. Maybe I should stop OLD as that’s the only common denominator with people I’m meeting. 

[basil67]

5 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

What would her reasons be? I don’t want to ask her as there is no point but I don’t understand why she wants to do all the ‘nice stuff’ like go on holiday together, hold my hand etc but doesn’t seem bothered about intimacy. I want to avoid this in the future with people I meet as this has happened at least 3 times. I’ve got reasonably fed up and things ended. 

Oh for heaven's sake!   "I'm really enjoying spending time with you, however I am looking for a relationship which also has physical intimacy and I'm not sure how you feel about it.  Is this something you would also like?"

(this conversation should have happened 6 weeks ago)

If you want to avoid complications and drama, you must learn to be assertive: the skill of tactfully advocating for yourself

Edited April 29 by basil67

[basil67]

4 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

I even gave it one more go today when making a joke about a bull riding event and she just replied ha ha ha

I just saw this.  What exactly was the joke and how did it relate to you wanting intimacy with her?   😶

I strongly suggest you borrow some books or listen to podcasts and learn to be assertive.  You say that you don't like upsetting people, but assertiveness is very different to being demanding or pushy.    On the scale of getting your needs met, it goes from Passive > Assertive > Aggressive.   And pretty much everything you write about dating so far puts you firmly as passive and this is why you're struggling so much.

Edited April 29 by basil67

[Lamron300]

25 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I just saw this.  What exactly was the joke and how did it relate to you wanting intimacy with her?   😶

I strongly suggest you borrow some books or listen to podcasts and learn to be assertive.  You say that you don't like upsetting people, but assertiveness is very different to being demanding or pushy.    On the scale of getting your needs met, it goes from Passive > Assertive > Aggressive.   And pretty much everything you write about dating so far puts you firmly as passive and this is why you're struggling so much.

We were talking about the game where you have to stay on the bull without it throwing you off. I said you should ride me like that and she said ha ha ha. 
 

I agree with what you’re saying, but it’s not that I’m passive. I don’t tell people what I want from them because a lot of people will do what you want till they get what they want. For example, a video by Steve Harvey was saying if a woman tells a man she likes morning texts and doors opened for her, he may do that for her till he gets what he wants then boom. She has the personality that if I did make it clear I want immediate intimacy she may go along as not to be ‘left’. I want someone to want intimacy and me not have to nudge or create it. 
 

I now kind of feel justified for keeping my options open. 14 dates over 3 months is enough time for someone to feel comfortable. I’m actually so drained by it I’m finding it difficult to even explain to her why I don’t want to continue. 

[mb2024]

Sorry, but I’m a bit confused…

Did she explicitly turn you down (repeatedly) when you tried to make the move?

Have you had the “dating exclusively” conversation already?

I also agree you should cut your loss if she did explicitly turn you down for physical intimacy!

[basil67]

31 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

We were talking about the game where you have to stay on the bull without it throwing you off. I said you should ride me like that and she said ha ha ha. 

That is a joke reserved for someone who you're already intimate with, who enjoys dirty humour and would love nothing more than to mount you when you get home.  It's actually weird and awkward with someone where the attraction is unknown

Quote

I agree with what you’re saying, but it’s not that I’m passive. I don’t tell people what I want from them because a lot of people will do what you want till they get what they want. For example, a video by Steve Harvey was saying if a woman tells a man she likes morning texts and doors opened for her, he may do that for her till he gets what he wants then boom. She has the personality that if I did make it clear I want immediate intimacy she may go along as not to be ‘left’. I want someone to want intimacy and me not have to nudge or create it.    

It's becoming very clear why you're so single for so long.  Your behaviour is super passive and highly risk averse.   If she is the kind who will have sex because she know you want it, then this is more of the conversation.  If she says "OK, we can have sex" then call it off.   If she says "It's about time! I've been waiting three months for this" then all is good. 

Quote

I now kind of feel justified for keeping my options open. 14 dates over 3 months is enough time for someone to feel comfortable. I’m actually so drained by it I’m finding it difficult to even explain to her why I don’t want to continue. 

Yes, it is enough time, but you're not comfortable either...otherwise you would have talked about it.  Again, passive passive passive.  

Do you know what a lot of woman want?  A guy who is assertive.  You've really got to get your act together

Edited April 29 by basil67

[basil67]

29 minutes ago, mb2024 said:

Sorry, but I’m a bit confused…

Did she explicitly turn you down (repeatedly) when you tried to make the move?

Have you had the “dating exclusively” conversation already?

I also agree you should cut your loss if she did explicitly turn you down for physical intimacy!

He hasn't initiated......

[FredEire]

28 minutes ago, basil67 said:

That is a joke reserved for someone who you're already intimate with, who enjoys dirty humour and would love nothing more than to mount you when you get home.  It's actually weird and awkward with someone where the attraction is unknown

It's becoming very clear why you're so single for so long.  Your behaviour is super passive and highly risk averse.   If she is the kind who will have sex because she know you want it, then this is more of the conversation.  If she says "OK, we can have sex" then call it off.   If she says "It's about time! I've been waiting three months for this" then all is good. 

Yes, it is enough time, but you're not comfortable either...otherwise you would have talked about it.  Again, passive passive passive.  

Do you know what a lot of woman want?  A guy who is assertive.  You've really got to get your act together

I agree. It's one thing being pushy, but she may be actually waiting for you to make a confident move. There's no sense being coy just for the sake of it.

Either it's that or she's just not that into you. Only one way to find out.

Edited April 29 by FredEire

[mb2024]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

He hasn't initiated......

In that case, shouldn’t he be escalating their physical intimacy organically instead of telling crass jokes?

[basil67]

24 minutes ago, mb2024 said:

In that case, shouldn’t he be escalating their physical intimacy organically instead of telling crass jokes?

That was my point

[Lamron300]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

That is a joke reserved for someone who you're already intimate with, who enjoys dirty humour and would love nothing more than to mount you when you get home.  It's actually weird and awkward with someone where the attraction is unknown

Yes, it is enough time, but you're not comfortable either...otherwise you would have talked about it.  Again, passive passive passive.  

Do you know what a lot of woman want?  A guy who is assertive.  You've really got to get your act together

100% understand and agree. But I do feel I’m assertive. I’m going on a second date with someone today and have set the scene. I always try and do it through humour (hence the bull joke). To the woman I’m dating today, when discussing second date; we were talking about going on a  slide after drinks. I said probably not too many drinks if I want a chance to kiss you. She responded haha not much you could do not to get the kiss. Even though she is receptive, I understand that if the date goes bad or changes mind, it happens. I’m very much keen on ENTHUSIASTIC consent.  I want someone to want something as much as I do or I don’t want it anymore.

Not sure if you read my last thread but my ex partner had a low libido. What happened is she would avoid sex in anyway and even say you didn’t do dishes or lie and say I didn’t shower. Then after the millionth argument she said she has a low libido and only gets horny naturally twice a year. This majorly put me off sex and sexuality for a long while as the thought of someone doing anything to avoid it made me very uncomfortable and I’m not one to insist. Obviously she had many other issues but that was a key one. Can you see how it ties into this situation? I don’t want to keep inviting someone over to my house when I’m not sure about them. 

She said last week she has deleted her dating account and isn’t seeing anyone else. I’m sure she wanted me to have the exclusivity talk with her, but I won’t get into a relationship when there is no intimate connection. In the past, mostly, intimacy has naturally happened, I haven’t had to think this much or dive through hoops. 

 

 

[basil67]

25 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

She said last week she has deleted her dating account and isn’t seeing anyone else. I’m sure she wanted me to have the exclusivity talk with her, but I won’t get into a relationship when there is no intimate connection. In the past, mostly, intimacy has naturally happened, I haven’t had to think this much or dive through hoops. 

I can see how your last girlfriend ties into the situation, but you're the one who chose to stay with her for so long.  So don't let your bad choices affect your new relationships.  And it certainly doesn't excuse your lack of communication with the woman you're with now.  If you can't talk about these basics, you have no business even dating.   

Meanwhile, I think it's selfish of you to be dating someone new while you've been seeing this other woman for three (!)months and she's wanting to get more involved.  Give the existing woman the courtesy of either having a discussion around sex and exclusivity... or if you can't bear to talk with her, just end it before you date the new girl again.   

Further, I would wager that after the amount of time you've spent dating the current woman, she would probably think you were already exclusive.... so if you go sleeping with the other woman, she will see it as cheating.

Edited April 30 by basil67

[Lamron300]

45 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I can see how your last girlfriend ties into the situation, but you're the one who chose to stay with her for so long.  So don't let your bad choices affect your new relationships.  And it certainly doesn't excuse your lack of communication with the woman you're with now.  If you can't talk about these basics, you have no business even dating.   

Meanwhile, I think it's selfish of you to be dating someone new while you've been seeing this other woman for three (!)months and she's wanting to get more involved.  Give the existing woman the courtesy of either having a discussion around sex and exclusivity... or if you can't bear to talk with her, just end it before you date the new girl again.   

Further, I would wager that after the amount of time you've spent dating the current woman, she would probably think you were already exclusive.... so if you go sleeping with the other woman, she will see it as cheating.

I didn’t choose to stay with her for that long, I was manipulated. I started my business in 2020 and at the time I was so focused on work. The dodgy things and sex avoidance she always had a reason. She even said well what’s stopping you from initiating things. Only after many arguments would she admit she has a low libido and vaginal dryness. With the current woman, even though crass (it’s about the humour; even bad humour is humour) I have hinted at it. 

I cherish your opinion from a woman’s perspective! But I’m tired of being on the defensive. My reason for dating multiple women isn’t because I’m a womanizer or I’m bored etc, it’s for reasons like this. In the past, I’ve focused on one person and realised they weren’t right after a while and by that time I’ve been burnt out and fed up of dating. Or I’ve always thought ahh what if she’s dating people behind my back. No one is putting a gun to my head to stop me. I’m not sleeping with anyone, so I don’t feel bad. She can’t expect for me to commit to her (wants to book a holiday, do all couple stuff and haven’t been intimate). It’s not a swap or I’m not saying if we were intimate then I’ll give into her way of thinking. It would just help establish things. 
 

She has her horse riding hobbies on the weekends, so a lot of dates are in the week and is a restaurant. I’m not going on anymore dates, been enough. She said to me in the past men have wanted to rush her into bed, but now I’m doubting that’s true, from my experience with her. 
 

apologies I sound resentful of her or people in general, I’m not! I’m 30 and I just want to do what’s right for me. There’s tons of women I get along with; but I have to accept that doesn’t mean passion is there. 

[FredEire]

43 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

I didn’t choose to stay with her for that long, I was manipulated. I started my business in 2020 and at the time I was so focused on work. The dodgy things and sex avoidance she always had a reason. She even said well what’s stopping you from initiating things. Only after many arguments would she admit she has a low libido and vaginal dryness. With the current woman, even though crass (it’s about the humour; even bad humour is humour) I have hinted at it. 

I cherish your opinion from a woman’s perspective! But I’m tired of being on the defensive. My reason for dating multiple women isn’t because I’m a womanizer or I’m bored etc, it’s for reasons like this. In the past, I’ve focused on one person and realised they weren’t right after a while and by that time I’ve been burnt out and fed up of dating. Or I’ve always thought ahh what if she’s dating people behind my back. No one is putting a gun to my head to stop me. I’m not sleeping with anyone, so I don’t feel bad. She can’t expect for me to commit to her (wants to book a holiday, do all couple stuff and haven’t been intimate). It’s not a swap or I’m not saying if we were intimate then I’ll give into her way of thinking. It would just help establish things. 
 

She has her horse riding hobbies on the weekends, so a lot of dates are in the week and is a restaurant. I’m not going on anymore dates, been enough. She said to me in the past men have wanted to rush her into bed, but now I’m doubting that’s true, from my experience with her. 
 

apologies I sound resentful of her or people in general, I’m not! I’m 30 and I just want to do what’s right for me. There’s tons of women I get along with; but I have to accept that doesn’t mean passion is there. 

Humour is often used as a veil or a defence mechanism because we are afraid to be vulnerable and say what you really think.

I have no doubt your ex and quite possibly this current woman also have their mental issues, but people who tend to gravitate towards people with the same kind of mental issues over and over again often do so because it dovetails well with their own mental issues. It's something worth exploring, ideally in therapy.

As for this situation yeah I think if she's talked about exclusivity it's better to at least be honest with her and say you are seeing other people. If you would potentially see yourself being exclusive with her you need to have a talk about sex (addressing it directly not as a joke). But it sounds to me it's a bit too far gone and has turned into resentment with you drawing parallels with your ex. Better to just leave it and move on.

[mb2024]

Serious question:  What prevented you from making the move when she was at your place?

[mb2024]

2 hours ago, mb2024 said:

Serious question:  What prevented you from making the move when she was at your place?

To add, I agree with Basil.  Women find men who have the confidence to lead sexy.  You’re worried that she may not like to have physical intimacy with you (and may just go along with it for opportunistic reasons).  That’s the behavior of someone utterly lacking confidence.  A confident man knows there’re plenty of others lined up for him even if this particular woman turns him down.  Her loss.  Next!

How did physical intimacy first happen in your past relationships?  Did you rely on the woman to make the first move?

[Lamron300]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

Humour is often used as a veil or a defence mechanism because we are afraid to be vulnerable and say what you really think.

I have no doubt your ex and quite possibly this current woman also have their mental issues, but people who tend to gravitate towards people with the same kind of mental issues over and over again often do so because it dovetails well with their own mental issues. It's something worth exploring, ideally in therapy.

As for this situation yeah I think if she's talked about exclusivity it's better to at least be honest with her and say you are seeing other people. If you would potentially see yourself being exclusive with her you need to have a talk about sex (addressing it directly not as a joke). But it sounds to me it's a bit too far gone and has turned into resentment with you drawing parallels with your ex. Better to just leave it and move on.

I’m not someone who usually dates more than one person at once. In fact, the word date is too strong as no sex or intimacy or romantic feelings are involved. 
 

My situation is this. I went on 3 dates last week (one with her when she done over). I met a woman who I’ve been speaking to for a while, I find her very attractive and her personality is great in person. She is from a different culture though and her parents are very strict (even though she’s 31) and she doesn’t get out much. I’m not surprised if she is virgin from what she tells me. She also disappears for days on end as she likes time to herself. I like her, but seems more trouble than what it’s worth. 
 

The second woman I’m meeting again today for the second date. We got along great and she is a lot of fun. Talk all day, very humorous conversations. Again, I don’t know how intimacy will pan out. She told me she’s bad at flirting. I’ve ratcheted up and she’s basically said she wants to kiss. 
 

Then obviously the third situation is what we are discussing. In my head, it’s done. I dont want to go on anymore dates be it restaurants or move nights or other things she has planned. I don’t want to be exclusive when there is no intimacy. Im the only one raising it or being suggestive in chats. I’m not 17 anymore so I don’t ‘sext’ but I think I’ve been as open as possible. She is also going on holiday for 2 weeks from this evening. I did try and caress her and kiss her passionately on Saturday morning but she seemed standoffish. It just seems intimacy isn’t important to her and the actual company and doing things together is. So we don’t match. 
 

The problem is situations like this make OLD feel dreadful. It’s more like trying to find things to rule people out as opposed to finding common ground. I know what I don’t want, but do I know what I do want??

[Lamron300]

34 minutes ago, mb2024 said:

To add, I agree with Basil.  Women find men who have the confidence to lead sexy.  You’re worried that she may not like to have physical intimacy with you (and may just go along with it for opportunistic reasons).  That’s the behavior of someone utterly lacking confidence.  A confident man knows there’re plenty of others lined up for him even if this particular woman turns him down.  Her loss.  Next!

How did physical intimacy first happen in your past relationships?  Did you rely on the woman to make the first move?

It’s actually the opposite. I have other dates lined up and have been on many dates since meeting her. What attracted me to her and let me be patient with her is she has a lot of the same values/traits as me (career focused, enjoys hobbies, loves pets etc and open to kids). So in my head I said I’ll get to know her for as long as it takes and the intimacy will come. I think it was only after maybe 9 dates she came round mine and she had a chest infection so I didn’t think much of it. However, since then she hasn’t talked about it (once in the context of going on holiday together she said we can have steamy shower sex); yet in person none of that has come across. I tried caressing her and kissing her passionately on Saturday morning, but she didn’t seem interested. I don’t want to put myself in an uncomfortable position where someone removes my hand or something. 
 

Apart from my ex partner and someone I went on 6 dates with in 2017, I have never had to think about intimacy. Hence why I am posting and asking for advice. It just happens. 
 

I haven’t spoken to her since yesterday when I said I’m getting my dog groomed and she said yay. I didn’t know what to reply and left it. Maybe she’s of the same opinion things should end or either she is aloof.