How do I overcome the complications of dating and avoid drama?

[Gebidozo]

6 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

I agree with you, but this new generation of dating, being keen is looked down upon. Not my rules. 

I’m not from this generation, but I hang with younger people quite a lot and I assure you, being keen is always good. Not being keen, on the other hand, is a real letdown for most women. You can’t imagine how many younger guys I’ve seen who got eternally friendzoned or some such thing because they weren’t keen enough. Believe me, doubts and hesitation are the worst.

[Gebidozo]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

If you show that you're keen and it doesn't work out, it means that they are not keen.  It doesn't mean that your honest keenness was a faux par.  Just don't blow up her phone 😅

Yes, I think that some (especially younger) men don’t have a clear understanding of the difference between “keen”, “active”, “persistent”, “passionate”, “straightforward”, on one hand, and “clingy”, “needy”, “cloying”, “controlling”, and “smothering”, on the other.

I don’t even think this difference manifests itself necessarily in the amount of messages and meetings and such, but rather in the vibe that those guys are sending, which women can pick and discern very well. 

[NuevoYorko]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lamron300 said:

 I'm not going to persuade, coax or pursue someone into intimacy. 

Will you initiate a kiss or any physical contact, or is it 100% up to them to make all first moves?  

This is your choice of course but your pool of women will be pretty narrow, as a typical societal norm in most cultures is that the man does the "chasing," courting, wooing and initiating.   

The fact that you are completely passive, indirect, yet make really embarrassing sexual innuendos and jokes with women you date but with whom you are not intimate is a problem.   Very awkward and I would venture to say, even creepy.

[Gebidozo]

58 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Will you initiate a kiss or any physical contact, or is it 100% up to them to make all first moves?  

This is your choice of course but your pool of women will be pretty narrow, as a typical societal norm in most cultures is that the man does the "chasing," courting, wooing and initiating.   

The fact that you are completely passive, indirect, yet make really embarrassing sexual innuendos and jokes with women you date but with whom you are not intimate is a problem.   Very awkward and I would venture to say, even creepy.

I agree completely.

OP, please understand that your oblique interaction is perceived by most women as a sign of insecurity and something like cowardice. Lack of confidence and lack of courage are among the most unattractive traits in a man. The moment you begin to doubt yourself, overthink, stop daring, and become overly careful and passive, the woman will perceive you as a friend, at best. This kind of thinking kills romance.

Sincere, direct romantic gestures, on the other hand, are always good. If anything, they will help you understand with whom you have chemistry and with whom not, pretty much right away. If a woman isn’t passionately kissing you in return, then something is off and you probably should move on. If she is, then chemistry has been brought forth, and you can begin working on the next stage of the relationship without worrying about physical compatibility.

 

[Lamron300]

20 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Could you please be more specific? What exactly do you have to offer, and what are you hoping to get from your partner?

Not really sure how to answer this question as it’s not for me to decide what I have to offer. It’s for someone to make their mind up on me and vice versa. 

In terms of what I’m looking for, I want to see emotional maturity, need someone laidback. The women I’ve ended things with was very nice and had a good personality, probably the most intelligent person I know, however, she is too aloof. E.g I said wow you’ve been to so many weddings recently. Then she went on a melancholic rant about how all her friends are settled and married and not her and she’s really disappointed and past relationships have destroyed her etc. I had to tell her life isn’t a race and just because people are married doesn’t mean things still can’t go wrong etc. Things happen in time. I said things between us are going good and she said yeah more than good. So I was like relax and I said I’m 30 and you’re 34 not like we don’t have time on our side. She said I’m not going to wait till you’re 65 to propose. She wanted to book a holiday etc and we haven’t been intimate despite me trying. And even still, with every woman things have ‘worked out’ with, it just happens naturally. I shouldn’t have to overthink etc. She just isn’t for me. I’m trying to not make same mistakes. 

[Lamron300]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:53 AM, basil67 said:

Chemistry is a feeling, a sense of electricity connecting the two of you, drawing you together.  Getting along is what friends do.

I also disagree on being keen.  My daughter is gen Z and when a guy she's really liked says "could we meet?", if she's keen, she's been known to say "I'm not doing anything tonight" and they've met that same day and kept seeing each other.  When she first met her now long term boyfriend, they saw each other VERY regularly in the first couple of weeks and she's now talking about marriage and babies.   

If you show that you're keen and it doesn't work out, it means that they are not keen.  It doesn't mean that your honest keenness was a faux par.  Just don't blow up her phone 😅

  

I’m glad it worked out for her. That hasn’t been my experience of online dating. I’m very straight to the point and I ask people out within 2 days of dating, if we get along. As you said if they aren’t keen they will say no and you’ve lost nothing. My issue is I think everything is linear and don’t expect curveballs. I let things go on for too long. In this case I felt uncomfortable after 7/8 dates. Been to everywhere for dinner in London, which is fine, but doesn’t let me know the important things to find out about someone. 

[Lamron300]

19 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Will you initiate a kiss or any physical contact, or is it 100% up to them to make all first moves?  

This is your choice of course but your pool of women will be pretty narrow, as a typical societal norm in most cultures is that the man does the "chasing," courting, wooing and initiating.   

The fact that you are completely passive, indirect, yet make really embarrassing sexual innuendos and jokes with women you date but with whom you are not intimate is a problem.   Very awkward and I would venture to say, even creepy.

I know you’re trying to help me, but it’s kind of offensive that you categorize my comment as ‘creepy’ with disregard for the context. We were talking about bull riding and months earlier she had made the comments her horse riding skills do indeed translate in the bedroom * wink face* I basically just put another spin on her comment from weeks earlier. 

[basil67]

14 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

My issue is I think everything is linear and don’t expect curveballs. I let things go on for too long. In this case I felt uncomfortable after 7/8 dates. Been to everywhere for dinner in London, which is fine, but doesn’t let me know the important things to find out about someone. 

Yep, this goes back to being passive, going with the flow and avoiding communication.  You need to be alert and observant.  If you aren't sure, you need to ask questions.     And if their actions don't match their words, this is a red flag.

With regards to the jokes about horse riding, why did you not invite her home straight after she told you that her horse riding skills translate to the bedroom?   She couldn't have been more obvious as being up for it.   By the time you made the returning joke a few weeks later, she would have been getting turned off by your lack of initiation.

Edited May 4 by basil67

[Lamron300]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yep, this goes back to being passive, going with the flow and avoiding communication.  You need to be alert and observant.  If you aren't sure, you need to ask questions.     And if their actions don't match their words, this is a red flag.

With regards to the jokes about horse riding, why did you not invite her home straight after she told you that her horse riding skills translate to the bedroom?   She couldn't have been more obvious as being up for it.   By the time you made the returning joke a few weeks later, she would have been getting turned off by your lack of initiation.

Because she was all talk, when I did invite her and when we were in the bedroom she just wanted to sleep. And with past experience I don’t have patience enough to figure out why. Why not just find someone matched with my intentions. 

[basil67]

14 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

Because she was all talk, when I did invite her and when we were in the bedroom she just wanted to sleep. And with past experience I don’t have patience enough to figure out why. Why not just find someone matched with my intentions. 

When she wanted to just sleep, was that when she had the chest infection?  Or did she stay at your place regularly?  
 

You’ve really only mentioned dating out and about so far. 
I totally understand not being bothered to try and figure things out, but letting it go on for three months without either breaking up or having a conversation is something you would be wise to unpack

Edited May 4 by basil67

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, Lamron300 said:

Not really sure how to answer this question as it’s not for me to decide what I have to offer. It’s for someone to make their mind up on me and vice versa. 

In terms of what I’m looking for, I want to see emotional maturity, need someone laidback. The women I’ve ended things with was very nice and had a good personality, probably the most intelligent person I know, however, she is too aloof. E.g I said wow you’ve been to so many weddings recently. Then she went on a melancholic rant about how all her friends are settled and married and not her and she’s really disappointed and past relationships have destroyed her etc. I had to tell her life isn’t a race and just because people are married doesn’t mean things still can’t go wrong etc. Things happen in time. I said things between us are going good and she said yeah more than good. So I was like relax and I said I’m 30 and you’re 34 not like we don’t have time on our side. She said I’m not going to wait till you’re 65 to propose. She wanted to book a holiday etc and we haven’t been intimate despite me trying. And even still, with every woman things have ‘worked out’ with, it just happens naturally. I shouldn’t have to overthink etc. She just isn’t for me. I’m trying to not make same mistakes. 

Ok, first of all, dating someone who feels “destroyed” by previous relationships is a risky endeavor. Such a negative mindset invariably carries itself over into the next relationship.

Second, discussing marriages and proposals without even having been physically intimate is very strange. She isn’t a 15-year old virgin waiting for a prince, she’s a grown up, experienced woman. Sexual chemistry is normally the first thing to test in a romantic relationship.

Third, it’s hard to understand why you let that relationship drag on. If you guys didn’t immediately experience a strong physical attraction and went to bed instead of talking about marriages and making sexual jokes, it’s obvious that romance was missing from the relationship.

You should be with someone who you are passionate about, and who is passionate about you.

[NuevoYorko]

I am still interested in knowing whether you always expect a woman to make the first move towards physical affection.   

Going from "no intimacy" to "ride me like a bull" is a huge leap.

Was there any making out or anything during all this time?  

 

[Lamron300]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:10 PM, Gebidozo said:

Ok, first of all, dating someone who feels “destroyed” by previous relationships is a risky endeavor. Such a negative mindset invariably carries itself over into the next relationship.

Second, discussing marriages and proposals without even having been physically intimate is very strange. She isn’t a 15-year old virgin waiting for a prince, she’s a grown up, experienced woman. Sexual chemistry is normally the first thing to test in a romantic relationship.

Third, it’s hard to understand why you let that relationship drag on. If you guys didn’t immediately experience a strong physical attraction and went to bed instead of talking about marriages and making sexual jokes, it’s obvious that romance was missing from the relationship.

You should be with someone who you are passionate about, and who is passionate about you.

I’ve learnt a lot from it. Actions are louder than words. A lot of things were said on her part, which I didn’t question and I didn’t communicate things the best myself. She always brought up being in a committed serious relationship and wanting ‘ her person for life’ and expecting me to sort of commit/stay with her when there was no intimacy.

Ive got a few dates this week and I'm going to be more straightforward. 

[Lamron300]

On 5/4/2024 at 4:30 PM, NuevoYorko said:

I am still interested in knowing whether you always expect a woman to make the first move towards physical affection.   

Going from "no intimacy" to "ride me like a bull" is a huge leap.

Was there any making out or anything during all this time?  

 

The bull comment is actually what decided I was done with her. She had made the comment first weeks ago regarding her riding skills as she is a horse rider. I thought I’d return the comment, but not sure why I did it after we had the opportunity to actually have intimacy rather than talk about it. To be honest, I thought it was a nicer way of addressing the lack of sex the day before, but then I realised it was my part of the problem and not being direct. I was at a loss anyway, I wasn’t happy with it and telling her might make her feel pressured or defensive. She could easily just say I didn’t want to and then that would be awkward. I’ve got other people I’m dating and even if it doesn’t work out I guess I just keep dating till I find someone I click with. 
 

I never expect anything from anyone. I can tell a lot even from mundane things. How a woman reacts to me touching her hands etc, eye contact. I’ve not really had to think about this a lot in the past, to be honest. It either happens or it doesn’t, the moves have been mutual. 

[FredEire]

So I think you've learned some lessons here.

1. Be as straightforward as you can about your intentions as early as you can

2. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. If you think the relationship is worth it, be honest about your feelings and see how she responds. If you're just not feeling it, break things off.

3. As much as you seem to be worried about getting cancelled, directness and bravery is an attractive quality. Be more direct and make the first move in future.

Edited May 6 by FredEire

[NuevoYorko]

I am still hoping you will answer my question:

Do you ever initiate any moves towards physical intimacy (like kissing)?  Or is this 100% up to the women you date?

[Lamron300]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

I am still hoping you will answer my question:

Do you ever initiate any moves towards physical intimacy (like kissing)?  Or is this 100% up to the women you date?

I always make first move, I thought I answered when I said it’s mutual. Date on Tuesday I went in for the kiss but I knew it was okay beforehand due to how things went.

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

I always make first move, I thought I answered when I said it’s mutual. Date on Tuesday I went in for the kiss but I knew it was okay beforehand due to how things went.

I'm glad to know that you can do it.  On reading your thread, it was not so clear

Edited May 6 by basil67

[Lamron300]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm glad to know that you can do it.  On reading your thread, it was not so clear

It’s my fault I mixed loads of topics into one. I always make a move, but by that I can see when it’s welcome or not. It’s not unnatural sort of thing, that’s why this situation confused me for a while. Like in isolation the bull comment sounded weird when I put it on here but obviously it was rhetorical humour etc. 

I’ve got a second date and a first date this week, still feel pretty unsettled as things aren’t clear. I’m very paranoid about OLD. 

[FredEire]

8 hours ago, Lamron300 said:

It’s my fault I mixed loads of topics into one. I always make a move, but by that I can see when it’s welcome or not. It’s not unnatural sort of thing, that’s why this situation confused me for a while. Like in isolation the bull comment sounded weird when I put it on here but obviously it was rhetorical humour etc. 

I’ve got a second date and a first date this week, still feel pretty unsettled as things aren’t clear. I’m very paranoid about OLD. 

Tbh speaking as someone in the same situation it's not a great mentality to go into something with, unless you're just looking for a pure hookup and don't care about navigating the choppy waters of OLD.

It brings to mind the people with bios that read "any good men/women left out there? 🙄" It gives off the message that they're so jaded by past experience that they're not really open to new ones. Even if they do meet someone good they'll shape it to their past experiences and it'll eventually go downhill.

[Lamron300]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:16 AM, FredEire said:

Tbh speaking as someone in the same situation it's not a great mentality to go into something with, unless you're just looking for a pure hookup and don't care about navigating the choppy waters of OLD.

It brings to mind the people with bios that read "any good men/women left out there? 🙄" It gives off the message that they're so jaded by past experience that they're not really open to new ones. Even if they do meet someone good they'll shape it to their past experiences and it'll eventually go downhill.

This is my current situation laid out. Speaking to 3 women. One I am due for a third date with on Monday, another one a second date was supposed to happen yesterday (but I’m sick) and a first date on Saturday (but I’m sick). 
 

First woman we get along well, kissed on second date but can’t really get excited about someone till I know more about them. Second Lady I find her very attractive and we get along but she has a repressed/controlling parents at 31 and before being inexperienced would seem endearing, now I realise it’s a waste of time. I don’t think I’ll be going forward with her, I’ve learnt my lesson from the 3 month situationship. 
 

What I’m trying to say, is I can almost see why some of the people I’m dating are single, which probably means we aren’t compatible. I’m not a naturally judgemental person but I guess in dating you have to be. Otherwise, you end up wasting time. That’s why I’m thinking to give up OLD, so many variables which don’t exist in real life. 

[FredEire]

20 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

This is my current situation laid out. Speaking to 3 women. One I am due for a third date with on Monday, another one a second date was supposed to happen yesterday (but I’m sick) and a first date on Saturday (but I’m sick). 
 

First woman we get along well, kissed on second date but can’t really get excited about someone till I know more about them. Second Lady I find her very attractive and we get along but she has a repressed/controlling parents at 31 and before being inexperienced would seem endearing, now I realise it’s a waste of time. I don’t think I’ll be going forward with her, I’ve learnt my lesson from the 3 month situationship. 
 

What I’m trying to say, is I can almost see why some of the people I’m dating are single, which probably means we aren’t compatible. I’m not a naturally judgemental person but I guess in dating you have to be. Otherwise, you end up wasting time. That’s why I’m thinking to give up OLD, so many variables which don’t exist in real life. 

Not that they don't exist, but maybe OLD attracts more serial daters with serious personal issues.

I think the key is to be firm, direct, but fair. Explain honestly what you want, don't play games and if something feels like a waste of time or a potential toxic mess drop it ASAP, but with polite and honest conversation rather than ghosting or blame games.

[Lamron300]

12 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Not that they don't exist, but maybe OLD attracts more serial daters with serious personal issues.

I think the key is to be firm, direct, but fair. Explain honestly what you want, don't play games and if something feels like a waste of time or a potential toxic mess drop it ASAP, but with polite and honest conversation rather than ghosting or blame games.

For example, the second date I was supposed to go on yesterday , she offered to come to my house yesterday to cook for me and help me walk my dogs as I’m off sick. She has a bit of a cold too, I said  let’s cuddle and she said sorry I don’t know how to respond to this. She is very socially awkward and aloof. At first I felt really positive that although things arent working out, it’s positive so many people want to go on dates with me. But when I look deeper, there are personal issues that I don’t want to get involved in. 
 

1 in 3 people meet online and I’m very busy so I thought OLD would be good, but it hasn’t turned out that way. I’m very upfront with people but I’ve given up trying to ‘change people’. When I first started talking to her she said her housemates recommended she goes dating but she’s ok on her own. I’ve seen that there is deeper issues with her and it would lead to resentment. However, no one is forcing me to date her so she isn’t to blame. 

[basil67]

54 minutes ago, Lamron300 said:

I’m very upfront with people but I’ve given up trying to ‘change people’.

This is a great epiphany on your end. 

We can't change people, and not should we try.  All we can do is either accept them as they are or move on.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Lamron300 said:

For example, the second date I was supposed to go on yesterday , she offered to come to my house yesterday to cook for me and help me walk my dogs as I’m off sick. She has a bit of a cold too, I said  let’s cuddle and she said sorry I don’t know how to respond to this. She is very socially awkward and aloof. At first I felt really positive that although things arent working out, it’s positive so many people want to go on dates with me. But when I look deeper, there are personal issues that I don’t want to get involved in. 
 

1 in 3 people meet online and I’m very busy so I thought OLD would be good, but it hasn’t turned out that way. I’m very upfront with people but I’ve given up trying to ‘change people’. When I first started talking to her she said her housemates recommended she goes dating but she’s ok on her own. I’ve seen that there is deeper issues with her and it would lead to resentment. However, no one is forcing me to date her so she isn’t to blame. 

I think that's nice of her to offer. I don't know obviously though how you feel about your in person chemistry so it's important to listen to your gut.

Dating in riddled with people who are indecisive, flaky, just looking for attention after a recent breakup etc. you have to decide what you want at the moment and just go in that direction, but upfront and if you think it's a waste of time just break things off politely.

Whether that's just friends with benefits or a relationship that's up to you, but you need to be direct and go for it and make sure others aren't just taking you along for a ride.