USA marital traditions vs ex ?

[Els]

On 10/25/2023 at 2:30 AM, Lover_1 said:

But if we decide to marry one day, I would like her to have my name.

Wow, so you want her to go through the immense hassle of changing her name TWICE: once to go back to her maiden name, and one more time after you and her are (hypothetically) married???

That sounds like absolute insanity, and is a big part of why I personally feel like the "women must change their names" tradition is extremely archaic and senseless in 2023. The world has gotten so bureaucratic that it will take countless hours and literal months of your life to make such a change, you will have to carry your name change documents with you everywhere you go (for EACH name change), plus women aren't considered property of their husband any longer (which was historically the reason for the change to begin with).

IMO the person who wants both people to have the same name should be the one to change theirs. There's no harm in having separate names, but if it's really that important to you that you both have the same last name, you have every opportunity to make the change yourself.

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, Lover_1 said:

No she didn't say that. I'm just scared that this will be happening because her family including the ex, are very entitled toward her.

In other words, you are creating problems where none exist. Honestly. Both with the rigidity re: the fact that you want her to take your name and by projecting what you fear will happen at future family holiday gatherings.

I’m not saying, blindly accept her ex-husband’s presence in your life. I think you would be wise to give it more time and see how things play out.

And, if I may, at “our” age, life is too short not to enjoy it. If you have feelings for the woman and things are working now, just enjoy it. Later in life, if you are lucky enough to find someone with whom you are compatible and love - hold onto it! Appreciate it! Do you want to bring it together someday and maybe get married or build more of a relationship with her children - sure. But, one way to guarantee that it’s not going to happen the way you hope it will is to rush things and make rigid demands like - she must take my name, she can not keep her ex husband’s name. That’s not going to go over well at all…

I do wish you luck! Take care. 

[Lover_1]

1 hour ago, Els said:

Wow, so you want her to go through the immense hassle of changing her name TWICE: once to go back to her maiden name, and one more time after you and her are (hypothetically) married???

That sounds like absolute insanity, and is a big part of why I personally feel like the "women must change their names" tradition is extremely archaic and senseless in 2023. The world has gotten so bureaucratic that it will take countless hours and literal months of your life to make such a change, you will have to carry your name change documents with you everywhere you go (for EACH name change), plus women aren't considered property of their husband any longer (which was historically the reason for the change to begin with).

IMO the person who wants both people to have the same name should be the one to change theirs. There's no harm in having separate names, but if it's really that important to you that you both have the same last name, you have every opportunity to make the change yourself.

Just to correct what you say.

First, she was also married before this ex. So, when she was in her 20s, she changed her name to the first husband. In her 30s, she changed her name again for the 2nd husband, which is the ex I'm referring to. Now, SHE is the one who proposed me to take my name if we marry. Yes, it was after a discussion when I was asking her if she was still emotionally attached to her ex husband by wearing his name and wedding band.

I'm in Canada, and here, since the 80s, no women take the name of their husband anymore. It is archaic like you said. Even more, here, we don't marry anymore, at least the big majority of couples. There are legal ways to protect each other without marrying, like a will, or having both names on the mortgage, each other names on the pension plan, on life insurance etc.

I was 26 years with the mother of my child and was not married with her. So, to me it is not that important, it seems to be for her. So, if she changed her name twice already for two husbands, I think it is natural for her to change it a third time if she wants to marry me. Unless she is emotionally attached to her ex's name, which I will question the reason. I have no problem if she keeps her ex-husband name if we don't marry. It was simply a question I was asking on this forum to know if it was a 'US thing' because here it is not. That's all.

For the extra documents required to carry with her, like you said, she is divorced since 10 years and she never carry other documents other than her driver license, anywhere she goes, life insurance, gouv. businesses, her work etc. So I don't think anybody request other papers as long as the changes are made at the government.

And why are you asking me to change my name to her ex-husband name? It makes sense to you? If she had her real name it could be an option, but I never saw a man take the woman's name when they get married. Did you?

I know in the US, wedding is a big thing. That's why we see so many videos of men proposing by spending money on airplanes with banners, fireworks etc. So, I think if people like that tradition, they should embrace it 100%, which include changing name.

[Lover_1]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

In other words, you are creating problems where none exist. Honestly. Both with the rigidity re: the fact that you want her to take your name and by projecting what you fear will happen at future family holiday gatherings.

I’m not saying, blindly accept her ex-husband’s presence in your life. I think you would be wise to give it more time and see how things play out.

And, if I may, at “our” age, life is too short not to enjoy it. If you have feelings for the woman and things are working now, just enjoy it. Later in life, if you are lucky enough to find someone with whom you are compatible and love - hold onto it! Appreciate it! Do you want to bring it together someday and maybe get married or build more of a relationship with her children - sure. But, one way to guarantee that it’s not going to happen the way you hope it will is to rush things and make rigid demands like - she must take my name, she can not keep her ex husband’s name. That’s not going to go over well at all…

I do wish you luck! Take care. 

I'm not creating problems that do not exist. If you look at my last reply to you, the family AND the ex-husband are VERY entitled to her. And my GF, not to upset anyone and keep the family harmony, says nothing and absorbs. Then she talks to me for hours about that, but she has difficulties to set boundaries.

If I am in my new house, and I am the one who needs to set THE boundaries, I don't know what will happened. May be nothing. May be she will be upset that her family will not talk to her anymore because of me. So, if I invest in a home, I would like to clear those problems before loosing money. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

Like you said, at our age, no time for BS. I want to have fun, travel, and being in love. I lost time with some GF after my divorce, but learned a lot, like solve the problems right away, not loosing time hoping that things will set by themselves. 

Thanks.

[Wiseman2]

Please slow down. You have a very valid point about them going on family vacations together. That they are going sailing together on a boat with the adult kids and expect you to tag along is absurd.

Please pick your battles. When you make a fuss over nonsense like maiden names and jewelry, it minimizes your valid points about all of you (her ex and kids and you) going on vacation or spending holidays together. Perhaps she's just inviting you as an excuse or courtesy but going on a several day sailing trip with her ex and adult kids is weird.

[basil67]

56 minutes ago, Lover_1 said:

I know in the US, wedding is a big thing. That's why we see so many videos of men proposing by spending money on airplanes with banners, fireworks etc. So, I think if people like that tradition, they should embrace it 100%, which include changing name.

I would argue that this is a decision to be made by each couple on an individual basis.  Who are we to tell anyone else what they should do when it affects nobody outside the relationship?   

44 minutes ago, Lover_1 said:

If I am in my new house, and I am the one who needs to set THE boundaries, I don't know what will happened. May be nothing. May be she will be upset that her family will not talk to her anymore because of me. So, if I invest in a home, I would like to clear those problems before loosing money. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

If it's your house and you don't have a live in partner, yes, you set the boundaries.  When you invite a partner to live with you, then you both work as a team in how things work. If it can't be resolved, then they don't move in.   Honestly, if you have to say to a partner "this is my house and my rules" then the relationship is too stuffed to continue with.

Edited October 25, 2023 by basil67

[Lover_1]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

 Honestly, if you have to say to a partner "this is my house and my rules" then the relationship is too stuffed to continue with.

Well, right now this is what she said to me. I'm having Thanksgiving with my family in MY house including the ex. She invited me. At first, the ex was supposed to sleep in her house for 7 days/nights. I said no way, I'm not going. Then, she asked a neighbor/friend to offer him a room for the nights, and it worked out like that,  but he will still be there 7 days. I had nothing to says about the event. Like someone said before, it's her house, her choices. So, since he's not sleeping in the bedroom next to us, I accepted to go. 

But yes, a couple should make decisions together. I always did that in my couples.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lover_1

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Lover_1 said:

Well, right now this is what she said to me. I'm having Thanksgiving with my family in MY house including the ex.

 I'd walk away from someone who said that to me.   As I said above, if this is the behaviour, then the relationship is stuffed.

I don't agree with your assessment that she's scared of upsetting people - I mean, she doesn't care about upsetting you.  From where I sit, she sounds stubborn and quite willing to dig her heels in to get her own way.  It's just that the direction she chooses is not one which favours you

 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Lover_1 said:

May be she will be upset that her family will not talk to her anymore because of me.

I don’t think that you want to make this woman choose between you and her family - meaning children and possibly even her ex-husband. I don’t know many women who would chose their boyfriend over their children.

As for the ex-husband, she clearly needs to have better boundaries. I don’t know many men who would tolerate the woman they are dating spending the holidays with their children and their ex-husband - and vice versa. Not man women would be happy with their boyfriend’s ex-wife coming for the holidays either…

That said, she has made her thoughts and feelings on the subject very clear - her family, including her ex-husband, are very important to her. Plan your decisions accordingly. 

Do you have your own children or other family you could visit? I understand that you’ve accepted her invitation, but maybe the relationship that you share doesn’t include holidays - maybe you see your own families on the holidays and enjoy your time together otherwise. That’s what my father and his girlfriend do, they quite often go to their own children’s homes for the holidays and otherwise live a very happy life together… there are other solutions if you are flexible. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by BaileyB

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Lover_1 said:

  I said no way, I'm not going.  since he's not sleeping in the bedroom next to us, I accepted to go. 

It's a shame that a budding new relationship of only 32 weeks already has so many power struggles, incompatibilities and conflicts. All you can do is visit and see how it goes. Perhaps you just want to be in a warm climate over the winter but that may not be enough reason to try to make things work. 

[glows]

8 hours ago, Lover_1 said:

May be it's not for the image for the kids as you say.

So, that means that it is for him, she really bonds to her ex?

Why wouldn't be possible that the kid s to see mommy and her new life partner for an event, then daddy and his new life partner (that he doesn't have) another day?

Why I have to witness my new love laughing with her ex remembering nice thinks?

You say: she wants to spend quality time with her family.

I think there is no more family. The parents are divorced. There is mom and the kids, daddy and the kids, but the family is exploded. 

The thing is, we are a compatible couple. 99% of how we think, what we do, we think the same, all goes well, except that part. We love each other.

To add a bit to it, her older daughter wants to go sailing like 10 days with the family. My girlfriend wants me to go with them. I'm not comfortable being with her ex for such a long time on a tiny boat. And letting my GF go alone, well, I question myself to what my GF is ready to do to please her kids? And if it is not to please the kids, if she really enjoys being with him that much for such a long period of time, well, that scares me even more. I start thinking that she loved him very much during 20 years, then s*** happened, they divorced, but she wants to keep the 'good' of him in her new life. She had a BF after her divorce, during 9 years of on-off relationship, and she told me that him also had a problem with her being so close to her ex. So, to me, my GF will need to reduce her contacts with him if she wants me to feel well in that new relationship.

And also, her daughter needs to stop to see mommy and daddy as a couple, that she can ask to go on a vacation with them. Mom and dad have a new life, new partners.

I was married 26 years. I had good time with my wife. I then divorced and on several years, I had 4 GF, that I also had fun and lovely time with them.

So, in theory, I could call back all these women and ask my GF to accept them in our new life?

I think when someone really wants to start a new life, he/she has to start on a clean slate.

Oh well. My GF often tells me: 'let it unroll'. So, I will tell her what hurts me, then we'll see.

 

Thank you all for the comments.

 

Hm 

there are very well intentioned thoughts here and I agree with you sailing with the family can seem awkward but it doesn’t have to be. 

This is where the incompatibilities are between the two of you so while I do agree with you that there are certain things such as sailing with them that can seem inappropriate to a good many people I also think there are a good number of individuals who wouldn’t have a problem with that.

You’re just not seeing eye to eye and she senses that, I’m sure. She gets more exasperated with you for being one way and you get frustrated with her for being who she is. 

I’m puzzled why you distrust her going sailing with her daughter or faulting her daughter for wanting both parents on her boat or the boat. It’s up to one of them to decline if they’re not comfortable but clearly they are comfortable with each other as exes so it’s really you who keeps having a problem with their dynamic. You don’t fit in.

The main underlying problem is you just don’t trust her

You don’t trust her judgment or her decisions and you don’t trust her ability to have boundaries with her ex H, father of her kids. I don’t think you even trust her parenting.

these are fundamental massive incompatibilities. And I don’t say this lightly either. You’re both not compatible. You may be on other things but not in these core areas which matter a lot which are on issues of parenting, boundaries and family dynamics. You may work as a couple in a vacuum with no outside influence but in reality with family and people around you this doesn’t work.

Being in Canada I disagree that marriage is outdated. I think to each their own but a very large majority still believe in marriage. This is a very mixed up country with many traditions and peoples of all walks of life all carrying their own traditions, some of the old ways. 

I think changing names and taking her ring off is cart before the horse. In English it’s a phrase that means getting ahead of one’s self. I don’t see this moving forward to marriage so no point discussing her changing her name to yours or talking if taking off her old ring. There are so many differences. A marriage would be disastrous and heartbreaking for you.

I was under the impression you already discussed this and she got upset and wanted to break up?

[Lover_1]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t think that you want to make this woman choose between you and her family - meaning children and possibly even her ex-husband. I don’t know many women who would chose their boyfriend over their children.

As for the ex-husband, she clearly needs to have better boundaries. I don’t know many men who would tolerate the woman they are dating spending the holidays with their children and their ex-husband - and vice versa. Not man women would be happy with their boyfriend’s ex-wife coming for the holidays either…

That said, she has made her thoughts and feelings on the subject very clear - her family, including her ex-husband, are very important to her. Plan your decisions accordingly. 

Do you have your own children or other family you could visit? I understand that you’ve accepted her invitation, but maybe the relationship that you share doesn’t include holidays - maybe you see your own families on the holidays and enjoy your time together otherwise. That’s what my father and his girlfriend do, they quite often go to their own children’s homes for the holidays and otherwise live a very happy life together… there are other solutions if you are flexible. 

I don't ask her to choose between her children or me, but between her ex and me. Like someone just said, I could spend the holiday with her and the children. But the children don't want to make to different events, they want to see their parents at the same time. And my GF being very social wants all of us together, she even said to me to invite my daughter. Of course it is impossible for her she is still at school. But maybe I should propose my GF to invite my ex wife LOL.

I do have one daughter. Thanksgiving in Canada is in October, in the US, in November, so no holiday for us end of November.

Your father and his girlfriend go to see their children without bringing their ex. How would you like if your father and mother and your father's girlfriend to come visit you? Do you think that his GF would appreciate?

[Lover_1]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's a shame that a budding new relationship of only 32 weeks already has so many power struggles, incompatibilities and conflicts. All you can do is visit and see how it goes. Perhaps you just want to be in a warm climate over the winter but that may not be enough reason to try to make things work. 

That's what I will do. I'll see.

Don't worry. I'm not using her to be in a hot climate for free. Last winter, I was there with my boat. I was living in my boat and it was costing me near $2000 per month for the marina in a touristic area. Also, my GF loves to travel Europe. We are talking about a trip there next spring, so several thousands of dollars from my pocket. So, no economy there.

[Lover_1]

1 hour ago, glows said:

Hm 

there are very well intentioned thoughts here and I agree with you sailing with the family can seem awkward but it doesn’t have to be. 

This is where the incompatibilities are between the two of you so while I do agree with you that there are certain things such as sailing with them that can seem inappropriate to a good many people I also think there are a good number of individuals who wouldn’t have a problem with that.

You’re just not seeing eye to eye and she senses that, I’m sure. She gets more exasperated with you for being one way and you get frustrated with her for being who she is. 

I’m puzzled why you distrust her going sailing with her daughter or faulting her daughter for wanting both parents on her boat or the boat. It’s up to one of them to decline if they’re not comfortable but clearly they are comfortable with each other as exes so it’s really you who keeps having a problem with their dynamic. You don’t fit in.

The main underlying problem is you just don’t trust her

You don’t trust her judgment or her decisions and you don’t trust her ability to have boundaries with her ex H, father of her kids. I don’t think you even trust her parenting.

these are fundamental massive incompatibilities. And I don’t say this lightly either. You’re both not compatible. You may be on other things but not in these core areas which matter a lot which are on issues of parenting, boundaries and family dynamics. You may work as a couple in a vacuum with no outside influence but in reality with family and people around you this doesn’t work.

Being in Canada I disagree that marriage is outdated. I think to each their own but a very large majority still believe in marriage. This is a very mixed up country with many traditions and peoples of all walks of life all carrying their own traditions, some of the old ways. 

I think changing names and taking her ring off is cart before the horse. In English it’s a phrase that means getting ahead of one’s self. I don’t see this moving forward to marriage so no point discussing her changing her name to yours or talking if taking off her old ring. There are so many differences. A marriage would be disastrous and heartbreaking for you.

I was under the impression you already discussed this and she got upset and wanted to break up?

I do trust her for the sentimental/love/sex side of it. I know she is not interested in having an affair with him. She tells me she sees him as her brother or father (he's 68). What bothers me is I'm dating a woman, not a couple. I want to live the most experiences with her or her children as possible. But many vacations, she includes the 'family'. Of course I am invited, but do I want that knowing he's there?  We are together for only 8 months. We did many things together. BUT at this date, my GF already setup 4 event including her ex. 1: we already did it, we went visit the children and went swimming and the ex was there. It was ok because my GF wanted me so much to meet her ex. The second one will be end of November at thanksgiving, the third is the famous boat trip, that will happen when the older daughter feels she wants to go, and the 4th event, my GF want us to go to California to visit, and why not living in her ex's house for free since he lives there. Nice, free lodging, but I have to live with him again. The more she tries to include him in our couple, or me being friend with him, the more I resist. Too much too soon I guess. 

 

[glows]

21 minutes ago, Lover_1 said:

I do trust her for the sentimental/love/sex side of it. I know she is not interested in having an affair with him. She tells me she sees him as her brother or father (he's 68). What bothers me is I'm dating a woman, not a couple. I want to live the most experiences with her or her children as possible. But many vacations, she includes the 'family'. Of course I am invited, but do I want that knowing he's there?  We are together for only 8 months. We did many things together. BUT at this date, my GF already setup 4 event including her ex. 1: we already did it, we went visit the children and went swimming and the ex was there. It was ok because my GF wanted me so much to meet her ex. The second one will be end of November at thanksgiving, the third is the famous boat trip, that will happen when the older daughter feels she wants to go, and the 4th event, my GF want us to go to California to visit, and why not living in her ex's house for free since he lives there. Nice, free lodging, but I have to live with him again. The more she tries to include him in our couple, or me being friend with him, the more I resist. Too much too soon I guess. 

 

If you’re not comfortable with this you must be honest sooner rather than later. Yes, do have that conversation but I asked earlier - didn’t she already threaten to break up because she disagrees with you?  

Be prepared to go your separate ways and do it respectfully. There’s no sense in fighting over this. You both will become hostile and get more and more frustrated arguing over the same topics.

If this has gone on where she has expected you to join in the family vacations with her ex husband then she also deserves to know you don’t want to do it. Don’t tell her that she’s wrong. That is terrible communication and will create hostility. Instead start with “I” statements. “I am feeling hurt…” or “I am concerned…” Stay away from broad generalizations and anything cultural/US vs Canada related. That is not the point. Keep focused on your feelings and thoughts and frame these respectfully without imposing on her or anyone else/her family. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Lover_1 said:

How would you like if your father and mother and your father's girlfriend to come visit you? Do you think that his GF would appreciate?

My mother is dead.

I have said all along that this is not a normal thing for a woman to expect and that there is a lack of boundaries here. I do not generally disagree with you. I just don’t think that you are going to change this family dynamic. 
 

Edited October 26, 2023 by BaileyB

[basil67]

What you want from a relationship is very reasonable.  However I don't think you're going to get it from this woman  

[Els]

13 hours ago, Lover_1 said:

Now, SHE is the one who proposed me to take my name if we marry. Yes, it was after a discussion when I was asking her if she was still emotionally attached to her ex husband by wearing his name and wedding band.

I'm in Canada, and here, since the 80s, no women take the name of their husband anymore. It is archaic like you said. Even more, here, we don't marry anymore, at least the big majority of couples. There are legal ways to protect each other without marrying, like a will, or having both names on the mortgage, each other names on the pension plan, on life insurance etc.

I was 26 years with the mother of my child and was not married with her. So, to me it is not that important, it seems to be for her. So, if she changed her name twice already for two husbands, I think it is natural for her to change it a third time if she wants to marry me. Unless she is emotionally attached to her ex's name, which I will question the reason. I have no problem if she keeps her ex-husband name if we don't marry. It was simply a question I was asking on this forum to know if it was a 'US thing' because here it is not. That's all.

You're all over the place here. Your initial comment was "But if we decide to marry one day, I would like her to have my name." Now you're saying that she is the one who wants to take your name (and if that is the case, what is the problem..?), and that it's not done in your culture anymore, and that it's not important to you (but also you think it is "natural" for her to do it???). Which is it?

Quote

If she had her real name it could be an option, but I never saw a man take the woman's name when they get married. Did you?

Yes, I know a few who did. It was important to them to share a name, but they also believed in equality, so they made the change themselves.

As for the rest of your concerns, I think that the involvement of the ex in her life - the CONCRETE involvement, like vacations etc, not silly stuff like names - is excessive and would be a problem to many people. It's a valid concern and I think you would do yourself a favour by letting go of your other inflexibilities and focusing on this instead.

[Lover_1]

To conclude this topic, we had a long discussion yesterday where I told her my concerns.

Of course, she has that relationship with him since 10 years, so she won't stop it just because I ask, like someone said.

The ring and name thing was already discussed with her and we had an agreement, so this is a closed topic.

She promised me that she will be more cautious about certain things. Like, when I'm in her home, treat me as 'the man of the house' over him, and not be intimidated by him.

Either he understands what is happening, or we gonna have two roosters in the house LOL.

Also, she always asked me to be reserved in front of her children or family about affection signs. She didn't want to create an embarrassing situation. So, she told me that she will change that, and will show more that we are a real couple, not just GF/BF. She says she might sit on my lap, kiss me, hug me, just regular affection signs  that are normal between lovers. May be the family will understand more where my GF has her interest, and that them, are only guests. IDK.

And about the vacation with the ex, she agreed that the boat thing was a bit extreme and will try to include him only in bigger or more important events.

That's the best I could have from her.