A Love Story of Two Worlds

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, MBar said:

so why the social classes? We should share love and help each other.

Actually the conversation is about your being interested in a woman from a religion/culture that you can't accept or comprehend and this bothers you.

It seems you would like to rearrange the world to your way of thinking specifically so you aren't faced with the dilemma of falling for a woman whose culture does not accept outsiders as far as marriage. 

Unfortunately you'll have to respect other's cultures and views including those you disagree with or don't understand such as castes, marriage culture and religious beliefs..

[MBar]

25 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Actually the conversation is about your being interested in a woman from a religion/culture that you can't accept or comprehend and this bothers you.

It seems you would like to rearrange the world to your way of thinking specifically so you aren't faced with the dilemma of falling for a woman whose culture does not accept outsiders as far as marriage. 

Unfortunately you'll have to respect other's cultures and views including those you disagree with or don't understand such as castes, marriage culture and religious beliefs..

You requested me to invest some time in explaining the purpose of our discussion. Please consult page one to verify! The narrative I shared (My Story) serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals. However, due to the feedback received, which I appreciated, the focus shifted. It was perceived that I sought advice, but my intention was to foster a positive and loving exchange. Unfortunately, it appears that many participants in this conversation have succumbed to the negative beliefs I previously mentioned. 

Thank you, 

Edited October 31, 2023 by MBar

[basil67]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

Unfortunately, it appears that many participants in this conversation have succumbed to the negative beliefs I previously mentioned. 

Your thread has made confusing comparisons.   You opened by talking in a general way about how humans in general don't support cross cultural mixes.  Now, I know many cross cultural relationships (my daughter and her partner included) who are welcomed by the greater society - so the broad description is untrue.

However, it is true that certain groups within human society do reject their children marrying outside of their own culture/religion/race.  But it's not society in general.  And honestly, there's nothing which can be done about it.   Change can only come from inside that specific group

[Gaeta]

16 hours ago, MBar said:

serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals

Individuals are part of a culture & religion. You are not fighting individuals here, you are trying to fight thousands of years of cultural & religious beliefs. You can't change these people's views with freedom speeches, this is bigger than you. You think you can just show up at the Vatican and convince the Pope to drop his religious convictions? Religious beliefs are THAT big and THAT deep in some people.

When you speak of freedom you are missing a big important part of this, the part where you are supposed to respect other people's beliefs. And I'd like to add to that it's not because it's different than YOUR belief that it's a wrong belief, it's just different.  

I don't know where you're from but I am Canadian and I am surrounded with mixed couples, and I am in a mixed relationship as well. I have the freedom to date or not my boyfriend. If one of his beliefs bothers me, limits my happiness, jeopardize my security, then I am free to exit that relationship, but don't have the right to tell him his beliefs are wrong. 

Let me give you an example. My bf does not eat pork because of religious beliefs. At 50 years old, being very liberal,  he knows logically nothing is wrong with eating pork but it's been ingrained in him since his birth so a small part of him still keeps him from eating pork. One day he was eating a stew when he realized there was bits of bacon in it, he instantly felt sick and he threw up!  Religious belief are *that strong!!!* 

I suggest you find a different battle. 

[MBar]

15 hours ago, basil67 said:

Your thread has made confusing comparisons.   You opened by talking in a general way about how humans in general don't support cross cultural mixes.  Now, I know many cross cultural relationships (my daughter and her partner included) who are welcomed by the greater society - so the broad description is untrue.

However, it is true that certain groups within human society do reject their children marrying outside of their own culture/religion/race.  But it's not society in general.  And honestly, there's nothing which can be done about it.   Change can only come from inside that specific group

Of course, I've never claimed that everyone WORLDWIDE shares that pessimistic perspective!

[MBar]

15 hours ago, S2B said:

Her “culture” excludes many. Huge judgement on their part - designed to make sure no one penetrates what their beliefs are.

she’s made it clear that is designed to exclude you. Why would you be interested in fighting that battle?

She has not opted to leave me, and her lack of interest in her cultural beliefs is the reason for that.

[MBar]

20 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Individuals are part of a culture & religion. You are not fighting individuals here, you are trying to fight thousands of years of cultural & religious beliefs. You can't change these people's views with freedom speeches, this is bigger than you. You think you can just show up at the Vatican and convince the Pope to drop his religious convictions? Religious beliefs are THAT big and THAT deep in some people.

When you speak of freedom you are missing a big important part of this, the part where you are supposed to respect other people's beliefs. And I'd like to add to that it's not because it's different than YOUR belief that it's a wrong belief, it's just different.  

I don't know where you're from but I am Canadian and I am surrounded with mixed couples, and I am in a mixed relationship as well. I have the freedom to date or not my boyfriend. If one of his beliefs bothers me, limits my happiness, jeopardize my security, then I am free to exit that relationship, but don't have the right to tell him his beliefs are wrong. 

Let me give you an example. My bf does not eat pork because of religious beliefs. At 50 years old, being very liberal,  he knows logically nothing is wrong with eating pork but it's been ingrained in him since his birth so a small part of him still keeps him from eating pork. One day he was eating a stew when he realized there was bits of bacon in it, he instantly felt sick and he threw up!  Religious belief are *that strong!!!* 

I suggest you find a different battle. 

I agree that just talking about freedom is not enough. Personally, I feel free to share my opinions, even if they might not have a big impact, maybe not here but somewhere else in the future. While I acknowledge there are many limitations, I haven't said I want to change everything. The difference in our perspectives is that you think some things in the world are impossible, but I believe in possibilities, not impossibilities.

To me, respect means expressing thoughts in a logical and respectful manner, not staying silent.

So, do you think everything that has happened is right from your point of view?

Also, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

Thank you for your example.

 

[Gaeta]

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

The difference in our perspectives is that you think some things in the world are impossible, but I believe in possibilities, not impossibilities.

I am not saying changes are not possible, these changes are possible but over hundreds of years. Only in 1983 the Catholic Church decided that women did not have to cover their hair in Church, Catholicism is 2000 years old, it took that long to make that small change. Religious changes and beliefs are slow. I was raised very Catholic and I was in my 40s when I abandoned some of our practices. It took that long. 

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

To me, respect means expressing thoughts in a logical and respectful manner, not staying silent.

Respect is knowing to express your opinion once and not imposing your beliefs on people again and again. The again and again is disrespectful to them.

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

So, do you think everything that has happened is right from your point of view?

I don't think her beliefs are wrong or yours are wrong. Of course a religious behavior that involves hurting someone is wrong! The behavior is wrong - not the entire religion. Plenty of people follow their religion without hurting others. If her father thinks it's justified to physically hurt her then he's wrong and if he acts on those beliefs then he should be reported to the authorities. It's a *him* problem.

4 minutes ago, MBar said:

Also, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

Then she is stuck in a bad place. She doesn't believe some part of her religion but does not want to lose the love of her family. She had to make a decision, renounce to them to be with you OR renounce to you to keep her family and community. She picked her family/community. There is no purpose continually telling her she's wrong or her religion and her father are wrong or the world is a bad place. She has made her decision, respect it. 

Maybe one day she will free herself from it all but it won't happen soon. She may need another 20-30 years to stand up to them. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

If this is the case, why is your friendship/relationship hidden from her male relatives? 

[Wiseman2]

19 hours ago, MBar said:

 Please consult page one to verify! The narrative I shared (My Story) serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals. 

Your sentiments are not new. 

""Imagine" is a song by British rock musician John Lennon from his 1971 album. The  lyrics encourage listeners to imagine a world of peace, without materialism, without borders separating nations and without religion"

Edited November 1, 2023 by Wiseman2

[MBar]

5 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I am not saying changes are not possible, these changes are possible but over hundreds of years. Only in 1983 the Catholic Church decided that women did not have to cover their hair in Church, Catholicism is 2000 years old, it took that long to make that small change. Religious changes and beliefs are slow. I was raised very Catholic and I was in my 40s when I abandoned some of our practices. It took that long. 

Respect is knowing to express your opinion once and not imposing your beliefs on people again and again. The again and again is disrespectful to them.

I don't think her beliefs are wrong or yours are wrong. Of course a religious behavior that involves hurting someone is wrong! The behavior is wrong - not the entire religion. Plenty of people follow their religion without hurting others. If her father thinks it's justified to physically hurt her then he's wrong and if he acts on those beliefs then he should be reported to the authorities. It's a *him* problem.

Then she is stuck in a bad place. She doesn't believe some part of her religion but does not want to lose the love of her family. She had to make a decision, renounce to them to be with you OR renounce to you to keep her family and community. She picked her family/community. There is no purpose continually telling her she's wrong or her religion and her father are wrong or the world is a bad place. She has made her decision, respect it. 

Maybe one day she will free herself from it all but it won't happen soon. She may need another 20-30 years to stand up to them. 

Thank you once more for explaining! I want to make it clear that I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone repeatedly. I'm just expressing my beliefs, and I won't stay silent about them.

I believe in a universal understanding of religion that serves all of humanity, not just a specific group in a particular place. Authorities, I have a simple definition in mind, although I won't go into detail right now.

Can you please show me where I mentioned that she chose her family over me? Also, point out where I said that she is wrong, or her religion and her father are wrongor that the world is a bad place. 

 

I don't deal with uncertainties or maybes.

Thanks again.

[MBar]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If this is the case, why is your friendship/relationship hidden from her male relatives? 

Only a few of them, because men are considered kings, and women are not considered queens over there! 

Only men make decisions!!! again over there...

[MBar]

1 hour ago, S2B said:

It really doesn’t matter what she “says” she believes.

she IS living as if she does believe what she’s been taught. Providing for her family and staying with them is the action on HER part that supports that she will likely stay with them.

those are HER actions - her upbringing and likely the way she will continue to live.

so you can only expect more of the same for her future - the actions (or inaction) support what she intends to do.

mainly, you need to accept that this is what’s real.

 

I acknowledge and accept the reality that is before me.

[MBar]

58 minutes ago, S2B said:

Yet - she isn’t WITH you… correct?

all of her family and friends don’t know openly about your union… so there is a BIG divide in your perspective - especially in saying that she isn’t “leaving you”.

technically - she isn’t WITH you. She is WITH her family - some of which no nothing about your ‘union’. So YOU are the secret.

she may say she has ‘a lack of interest in her culture/beliefs’ but she isn’t being real. Because she hasn’t changed one thing if she is still THERE and supporting her family. Leaving you here… under the guise of changing her life. She hasn’t really changed a thing.

Perhaps you could express these sentiments if you've known her for more than five years; then, I would truly believe them. Secrets hold significant meaning.

Once again, thank you for sharing your perspective.
 

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, MBar said:

Perhaps you could express these sentiments if you've known her for more than five years; then, I would truly believe them. Secrets hold significant meaning.
 

Yes, you may stay as a little star in her heart as she goes on to marry a man of her own faith. 

[MBar]

Just now, basil67 said:

Yes, you may stay as a little star in her heart as she goes on to marry a man of her own faith. 

You don't hold the authority over the decision; I rely on God.

[basil67]

15 minutes ago, MBar said:

You don't hold the authority over the decision; I rely on God.

Given that only her family have authority over her, I don't understand your comment.  And what has God got to do with it?

 

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

into detail right now.

Can you please show me where I mentioned that she chose her family over me? Also, point out where I said that she is wrong, or her religion and her father are wrongor that the world is a bad place. 

Actions speak louder than words. Her actions indicate she is chosing her family. After 5 years if she had chosen you she would have packed her stuff and leave her family.

In your introduction it's clear that you find people having very conservative religious belief are wrong to not view the world the way you do.

[MBar]

51 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Given that only her family have authority over her, I don't understand your comment.  And what has God got to do with it?

 

God is involved in everything that is happening! I'm simply stating that wrong will not continue. Breaking hearts is one of the biggest crimes that have still remained without any judgments or punishments. In here, the role of God comes into play when one day He delivers His judgments.

[Wiseman2]

21 minutes ago, MBar said:

. Breaking hearts is one of the biggest crimes that have still remained without any judgments or punishments. 

Who is commiting the "crime" of breaking your heart? Her, her family? Her culture/religion?  Heartbreak is painful but it's not a crime someone inflicted on you. You decided to fall for a woman from a religion/culture that you disagree with, distain and obstructs your personal efforts to be with this woman. Therefore you broke your own heart by not accepting, having respect for or understanding her culture and religion. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Wiseman2]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:50 AM, MBar said:

 We've been in a relationship for nearly 5 years. She is 25, and I'm 26. This is mainly connected to religion; she follows the Yazidi faith. 

"The Romeo and Juliet effect" describes the intensification of romantic feelings in relationship when met by parental opposition,  referencing the protagonists of the William Shakespeare play Romeo and Juliet, whose families were opposed to their union.

[Gaeta]

[ ] 

You are an adult male, you've loved this woman for 5 years! What are you waiting for acting like an adult man!? [ ] Ask her to marry you, set up a life together, protect her and protect your marriage! Other men will respect you when you act like a *man* and don't hide!!

I am the mother of 2 adult daughters, l would not respect a man that hides to talk to my daughter like he's 14 years old! Even if l don't like him l'd respect him more if he acted like a man with integrity and he'd show up at my door to tell me he loves my daughter and his intention is to love her and honor her!

Maybe it's not just about religion! Maybe they want better for their daughter then a man that hides!

In your introduction you accuse people of lacking courage to change, where is your courage? When did you show up at their door to introduce yourself! 

Edited November 2, 2023 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
response to removed content/civility

[mark clemson]

People can fall in love with the wrong person. In fact, it happens all the time, in a variety of ways.

The depth and sincerity of your current emotion, despite how genuine it may be, doesn't necessarily mean you are actually right for each other (in the long term) and doesn't guarantee success.