A Love Story of Two Worlds

[MBar]

11 hours ago, S2B said:

So why don’t her dad and uncle know about you when other family members know?

are any of her siblings married?

They believe we're only friends.

No, they are kids! 

[Gaeta]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:38 AM, MBar said:

 I choose to focus on the present and value the time we have together. If the day comes when she finds someone else

If you love her and her happiness matters you will stop all communication and allow her to move on. No, she is not moving on emotionally until you remain in her life even under the form of phone communication. You are simply slowing the process for her. She is 25, she needs to find a suitable partner before her community/religion consider her too old to be a good wife material.

Although you don't see it, you are still standing in the way. You need to let her go for her but also for yourself. 

[MBar]

13 hours ago, Gaeta said:

If you love her and her happiness matters you will stop all communication and allow her to move on. No, she is not moving on emotionally until you remain in her life even under the form of phone communication. You are simply slowing the process for her. She is 25, she needs to find a suitable partner before her community/religion consider her too old to be a good wife material.

Although you don't see it, you are still standing in the way. You need to let her go for her but also for yourself. 

Does being otherwise imply that I lack love for her and that her happiness is of no concern to me?!

 

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

Does being otherwise imply that I lack love for her and that her happiness is of no concern to me?!

There are all kinds of love. 

There is selfless love and selfish love. 

Selfless love is letting go of any reward for yourself, like her friendship, so she can fully move on and embrace a new man/new relationship without any emotional hold back 'like your friendship'. Because this friendship is just a way of not fully letting go.  Selfless love means I love you so much I will completely free you of me so you can live/love with someone else without any hold back because of me.

Selfish love is how can you keep her in your life because you cannot imagine a life without her so you keep her under the disguise of a friend so you still talk to her, still know what's going on in her life, and still have an input in what is happening in her life. That's selfish, it's not meant to be kind to her, it's meant to serve you and your feelings and still getting a dosage of her. As long as you're 'friends' she will have a hard time moving on, that 'hard time' is caused by you not cutting your link. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Gaeta

[S2B]

10 hours ago, MBar said:

Does being otherwise imply that I lack love for her and that her happiness is of no concern to me?!

 

[ ] 

if you really loved her - you would end it and allow her to be safe for her future.

date women in your area- close to home. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility

[MBar]

3 hours ago, Gaeta said:

There are all kinds of love. 

There is selfless love and selfish love. 

Selfless love is letting go of any reward for yourself, like her friendship, so she can fully move on and embrace a new man/new relationship without any emotional hold back 'like your friendship'. Because this friendship is just a way of not fully letting go.  Selfless love means I love you so much I will completely free you of me so you can live/love with someone else without any hold back because of me.

Selfish love is how can you keep her in your life because you cannot imagine a life without her so you keep her under the disguise of a friend so you still talk to her, still know what's going on in her life, and still have an input in what is happening in her life. That's selfish, it's not meant to be kind to her, it's meant to serve you and your feelings and still getting a dosage of her. As long as you're 'friends' she will have a hard time moving on, that 'hard time' is caused by you not cutting your link. 

Thanks for explaining. I want to hear your thoughts on what real love means to you. Also, what do you think about the idea that letting her go means I'm just giving up? I'm usually optimistic, so I don't see it as a situation where we have to completely cut ties.

Thanks.

[MBar]

6 hours ago, S2B said:

[ ] 

if you really loved her - you would end it and allow her to be safe for her future.

date women in your area- close to home. 

[ ] 

I'm not in a hurry or set on being with a woman. I know there are plenty of other opportunities, as someone mentioned earlier in the conversation. But the main point of our talk is to understand why there's so much negativity in the world. "We often think small, like the frog at the bottom of the well. It believes the sky is only as big as the top of the well. If it came out, it would see a completely different view." We're all human, and there's no real difference between us, so why the social classes? We should share love and help each other.

Edited October 31, 2023 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
response to removed content

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, MBar said:

so why the social classes? We should share love and help each other.

Actually the conversation is about your being interested in a woman from a religion/culture that you can't accept or comprehend and this bothers you.

It seems you would like to rearrange the world to your way of thinking specifically so you aren't faced with the dilemma of falling for a woman whose culture does not accept outsiders as far as marriage. 

Unfortunately you'll have to respect other's cultures and views including those you disagree with or don't understand such as castes, marriage culture and religious beliefs..

[MBar]

25 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Actually the conversation is about your being interested in a woman from a religion/culture that you can't accept or comprehend and this bothers you.

It seems you would like to rearrange the world to your way of thinking specifically so you aren't faced with the dilemma of falling for a woman whose culture does not accept outsiders as far as marriage. 

Unfortunately you'll have to respect other's cultures and views including those you disagree with or don't understand such as castes, marriage culture and religious beliefs..

You requested me to invest some time in explaining the purpose of our discussion. Please consult page one to verify! The narrative I shared (My Story) serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals. However, due to the feedback received, which I appreciated, the focus shifted. It was perceived that I sought advice, but my intention was to foster a positive and loving exchange. Unfortunately, it appears that many participants in this conversation have succumbed to the negative beliefs I previously mentioned. 

Thank you, 

Edited October 31, 2023 by MBar

[basil67]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

Unfortunately, it appears that many participants in this conversation have succumbed to the negative beliefs I previously mentioned. 

Your thread has made confusing comparisons.   You opened by talking in a general way about how humans in general don't support cross cultural mixes.  Now, I know many cross cultural relationships (my daughter and her partner included) who are welcomed by the greater society - so the broad description is untrue.

However, it is true that certain groups within human society do reject their children marrying outside of their own culture/religion/race.  But it's not society in general.  And honestly, there's nothing which can be done about it.   Change can only come from inside that specific group

[S2B]

Her “culture” excludes many. Huge judgement on their part - designed to make sure no one penetrates what their beliefs are.

she’s made it clear that is designed to exclude you. Why would you be interested in fighting that battle?

[Gaeta]

16 hours ago, MBar said:

serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals

Individuals are part of a culture & religion. You are not fighting individuals here, you are trying to fight thousands of years of cultural & religious beliefs. You can't change these people's views with freedom speeches, this is bigger than you. You think you can just show up at the Vatican and convince the Pope to drop his religious convictions? Religious beliefs are THAT big and THAT deep in some people.

When you speak of freedom you are missing a big important part of this, the part where you are supposed to respect other people's beliefs. And I'd like to add to that it's not because it's different than YOUR belief that it's a wrong belief, it's just different.  

I don't know where you're from but I am Canadian and I am surrounded with mixed couples, and I am in a mixed relationship as well. I have the freedom to date or not my boyfriend. If one of his beliefs bothers me, limits my happiness, jeopardize my security, then I am free to exit that relationship, but don't have the right to tell him his beliefs are wrong. 

Let me give you an example. My bf does not eat pork because of religious beliefs. At 50 years old, being very liberal,  he knows logically nothing is wrong with eating pork but it's been ingrained in him since his birth so a small part of him still keeps him from eating pork. One day he was eating a stew when he realized there was bits of bacon in it, he instantly felt sick and he threw up!  Religious belief are *that strong!!!* 

I suggest you find a different battle. 

[MBar]

15 hours ago, basil67 said:

Your thread has made confusing comparisons.   You opened by talking in a general way about how humans in general don't support cross cultural mixes.  Now, I know many cross cultural relationships (my daughter and her partner included) who are welcomed by the greater society - so the broad description is untrue.

However, it is true that certain groups within human society do reject their children marrying outside of their own culture/religion/race.  But it's not society in general.  And honestly, there's nothing which can be done about it.   Change can only come from inside that specific group

Of course, I've never claimed that everyone WORLDWIDE shares that pessimistic perspective!

[MBar]

15 hours ago, S2B said:

Her “culture” excludes many. Huge judgement on their part - designed to make sure no one penetrates what their beliefs are.

she’s made it clear that is designed to exclude you. Why would you be interested in fighting that battle?

She has not opted to leave me, and her lack of interest in her cultural beliefs is the reason for that.

[MBar]

20 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Individuals are part of a culture & religion. You are not fighting individuals here, you are trying to fight thousands of years of cultural & religious beliefs. You can't change these people's views with freedom speeches, this is bigger than you. You think you can just show up at the Vatican and convince the Pope to drop his religious convictions? Religious beliefs are THAT big and THAT deep in some people.

When you speak of freedom you are missing a big important part of this, the part where you are supposed to respect other people's beliefs. And I'd like to add to that it's not because it's different than YOUR belief that it's a wrong belief, it's just different.  

I don't know where you're from but I am Canadian and I am surrounded with mixed couples, and I am in a mixed relationship as well. I have the freedom to date or not my boyfriend. If one of his beliefs bothers me, limits my happiness, jeopardize my security, then I am free to exit that relationship, but don't have the right to tell him his beliefs are wrong. 

Let me give you an example. My bf does not eat pork because of religious beliefs. At 50 years old, being very liberal,  he knows logically nothing is wrong with eating pork but it's been ingrained in him since his birth so a small part of him still keeps him from eating pork. One day he was eating a stew when he realized there was bits of bacon in it, he instantly felt sick and he threw up!  Religious belief are *that strong!!!* 

I suggest you find a different battle. 

I agree that just talking about freedom is not enough. Personally, I feel free to share my opinions, even if they might not have a big impact, maybe not here but somewhere else in the future. While I acknowledge there are many limitations, I haven't said I want to change everything. The difference in our perspectives is that you think some things in the world are impossible, but I believe in possibilities, not impossibilities.

To me, respect means expressing thoughts in a logical and respectful manner, not staying silent.

So, do you think everything that has happened is right from your point of view?

Also, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

Thank you for your example.

 

[Gaeta]

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

The difference in our perspectives is that you think some things in the world are impossible, but I believe in possibilities, not impossibilities.

I am not saying changes are not possible, these changes are possible but over hundreds of years. Only in 1983 the Catholic Church decided that women did not have to cover their hair in Church, Catholicism is 2000 years old, it took that long to make that small change. Religious changes and beliefs are slow. I was raised very Catholic and I was in my 40s when I abandoned some of our practices. It took that long. 

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

To me, respect means expressing thoughts in a logical and respectful manner, not staying silent.

Respect is knowing to express your opinion once and not imposing your beliefs on people again and again. The again and again is disrespectful to them.

3 minutes ago, MBar said:

So, do you think everything that has happened is right from your point of view?

I don't think her beliefs are wrong or yours are wrong. Of course a religious behavior that involves hurting someone is wrong! The behavior is wrong - not the entire religion. Plenty of people follow their religion without hurting others. If her father thinks it's justified to physically hurt her then he's wrong and if he acts on those beliefs then he should be reported to the authorities. It's a *him* problem.

4 minutes ago, MBar said:

Also, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

Then she is stuck in a bad place. She doesn't believe some part of her religion but does not want to lose the love of her family. She had to make a decision, renounce to them to be with you OR renounce to you to keep her family and community. She picked her family/community. There is no purpose continually telling her she's wrong or her religion and her father are wrong or the world is a bad place. She has made her decision, respect it. 

Maybe one day she will free herself from it all but it won't happen soon. She may need another 20-30 years to stand up to them. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, MBar said:

, what if, as I mentioned before, she doesn't believe in all this either?

If this is the case, why is your friendship/relationship hidden from her male relatives? 

[Wiseman2]

19 hours ago, MBar said:

 Please consult page one to verify! The narrative I shared (My Story) serves as a point of reference to illustrate the mindsets of certain individuals. 

Your sentiments are not new. 

""Imagine" is a song by British rock musician John Lennon from his 1971 album. The  lyrics encourage listeners to imagine a world of peace, without materialism, without borders separating nations and without religion"

Edited November 1, 2023 by Wiseman2

[S2B]

It really doesn’t matter what she “says” she believes.

she IS living as if she does believe what she’s been taught. Providing for her family and staying with them is the action on HER part that supports that she will likely stay with them.

those are HER actions - her upbringing and likely the way she will continue to live.

so you can only expect more of the same for her future - the actions (or inaction) support what she intends to do.

mainly, you need to accept that this is what’s real.

[S2B]

5 hours ago, MBar said:

She has not opted to leave me, and her lack of interest in her cultural beliefs is the reason for that.

Yet - she isn’t WITH you… correct?

all of her family and friends don’t know openly about your union… so there is a BIG divide in your perspective - especially in saying that she isn’t “leaving you”.

technically - she isn’t WITH you. She is WITH her family - some of which no nothing about your ‘union’. So YOU are the secret.

she may say she has ‘a lack of interest in her culture/beliefs’ but she isn’t being real. Because she hasn’t changed one thing if she is still THERE and supporting her family. Leaving you here… under the guise of changing her life. She hasn’t really changed a thing.

[MBar]

5 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I am not saying changes are not possible, these changes are possible but over hundreds of years. Only in 1983 the Catholic Church decided that women did not have to cover their hair in Church, Catholicism is 2000 years old, it took that long to make that small change. Religious changes and beliefs are slow. I was raised very Catholic and I was in my 40s when I abandoned some of our practices. It took that long. 

Respect is knowing to express your opinion once and not imposing your beliefs on people again and again. The again and again is disrespectful to them.

I don't think her beliefs are wrong or yours are wrong. Of course a religious behavior that involves hurting someone is wrong! The behavior is wrong - not the entire religion. Plenty of people follow their religion without hurting others. If her father thinks it's justified to physically hurt her then he's wrong and if he acts on those beliefs then he should be reported to the authorities. It's a *him* problem.

Then she is stuck in a bad place. She doesn't believe some part of her religion but does not want to lose the love of her family. She had to make a decision, renounce to them to be with you OR renounce to you to keep her family and community. She picked her family/community. There is no purpose continually telling her she's wrong or her religion and her father are wrong or the world is a bad place. She has made her decision, respect it. 

Maybe one day she will free herself from it all but it won't happen soon. She may need another 20-30 years to stand up to them. 

Thank you once more for explaining! I want to make it clear that I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone repeatedly. I'm just expressing my beliefs, and I won't stay silent about them.

I believe in a universal understanding of religion that serves all of humanity, not just a specific group in a particular place. Authorities, I have a simple definition in mind, although I won't go into detail right now.

Can you please show me where I mentioned that she chose her family over me? Also, point out where I said that she is wrong, or her religion and her father are wrongor that the world is a bad place. 

 

I don't deal with uncertainties or maybes.

Thanks again.

[MBar]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If this is the case, why is your friendship/relationship hidden from her male relatives? 

Only a few of them, because men are considered kings, and women are not considered queens over there! 

Only men make decisions!!! again over there...

[MBar]

1 hour ago, S2B said:

It really doesn’t matter what she “says” she believes.

she IS living as if she does believe what she’s been taught. Providing for her family and staying with them is the action on HER part that supports that she will likely stay with them.

those are HER actions - her upbringing and likely the way she will continue to live.

so you can only expect more of the same for her future - the actions (or inaction) support what she intends to do.

mainly, you need to accept that this is what’s real.

 

I acknowledge and accept the reality that is before me.

[MBar]

58 minutes ago, S2B said:

Yet - she isn’t WITH you… correct?

all of her family and friends don’t know openly about your union… so there is a BIG divide in your perspective - especially in saying that she isn’t “leaving you”.

technically - she isn’t WITH you. She is WITH her family - some of which no nothing about your ‘union’. So YOU are the secret.

she may say she has ‘a lack of interest in her culture/beliefs’ but she isn’t being real. Because she hasn’t changed one thing if she is still THERE and supporting her family. Leaving you here… under the guise of changing her life. She hasn’t really changed a thing.

Perhaps you could express these sentiments if you've known her for more than five years; then, I would truly believe them. Secrets hold significant meaning.

Once again, thank you for sharing your perspective.
 

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, MBar said:

Perhaps you could express these sentiments if you've known her for more than five years; then, I would truly believe them. Secrets hold significant meaning.
 

Yes, you may stay as a little star in her heart as she goes on to marry a man of her own faith.