The woman I love and who loves me is not leaving her boyfriend

[Alpacalia]

4 hours ago, Tagasok said:

PS: I am totally aware that I am acting immaturely but it's tough to fight these feelings, it's the first time this is so strong for me 

Feelings are feelings. Sure. But you do know that if we gave in to our feelings all of the time we'd be in big trouble! Being in love with someone who is in love with someone else is not a recipe for happiness. Man, that must be painful. But pain is a message and sometimes a good teacher.

I feel really bad that you're in this limbo of hope and pain, but the reality is that K is not giving you clear signals or actions that she wants to be with you.

My take is that you're a stand-up guy, not a "relentless pursuer." I read your message to be preoccupied and hurt. That makes sense. K keeps you dangling. Do you really want a partner who is "unavailable?"

I did not mean to imply for you to be "flush with some alternative prospects," to quote that message. I meant that your goal is realistic IF you let go of K. She's having what is commonly called a "consciousness problem." Your feelings of being "totally drained/ emotionally exhausted/ emotionally bruised/lovelorn are intense. I have seen so many encounters and conversations along the years with people who "sell themselves down the river" with people who give them crumbs, some of them hot and sexy crumbs, in return for devotion and dreams.

Some people do this once. Some people do this over and over and over. That's how therapy was invented.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Wiseman2]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:04 AM, Tagasok said:

she pulled back and that became too much to me, and I accepted a job back in my country of origin. Since I moved back in my country of origin, mid-September, we exchange 50/60 messages a day. 

How far apart are you now? Are there any local single available women in your area you could date? 

Unfortunately you don't seem ready to settle down. You seem to keep breaking up with women on whims and chasing daydreams. If anything, this woman is just a muse and a way to avoid relationships. 

Keep in mind unavailable people choose other unavailable people. So in that sense a woman in a relationship living with her BF is "safe", because between the fact that you worked together, she lives with her BF and now you're in different countries, this extended fantasy will keep you from having serious relationships, which you seem to be avoiding.

[BaileyB]

I think it’s an unrealistic expectation that you would be excited about another woman when you are clearly preoccupied and waiting for this “married” woman. 

I also wonder how good these friends are who are encouraging her to dump her partner and encouraging you to wait around for her to do that. Those don’t seem like particularly wise or supportive friends to me. I would kindly suggest that this romance is most likely creating drama for the office rumour mill… I would say that your friends at home have a much more realistic take on the situation.

Unless, and until, she leaves her current partner, I think you would be wise to take a step back. And, when she comes back to you… rather than taking that as a sign that she loves you more, I would restate my expectation - unless, and until, she is unattached, I would not be interested.

As glows said above, feels are just feelings - if we acted on every feeling that we had, we would find ourselves in some difficult situations. In love, as in life, we must think with our heart AND our head. Your head is telling you that there are serious concerns here - you’ve spelled them out in your post… I wouldn’t ignore that. 

[NuevoYorko]

Feelings are feelings, yes indeed.  But feelings are not responsible for you engaging in messaging 50-60 times per day with this woman.  That's BEHAVIOR.  

You both know how you feel.   All of this extravagant dramatic behavior is not going to progress your relationship in any way, as you already know.  If there is any prospect for a future - I do not happen to believe it's possible - way way too much dysfunction in multiple ways coming from all parties, but what do I really know - it's not going to suddenly blossom out of this behavior.  

If you stop it, if anything will happen, you will be giving it the space to happen.  That would be her relationship ending, and then her reaching out to you to get together.

As long as you are so enmeshed in this drama, please do not keep trying to date other women unless they are ONLY interested in casual flings.  It's not fair to women who are looking for a relationship to date men who are emotionally completely unavailable.  

[Tagasok]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I think it’s an unrealistic expectation that you would be excited about another woman when you are clearly preoccupied and waiting for this “married” woman. 

I also wonder how good these friends are who are encouraging her to dump her partner and encouraging you to wait around for her to do that. Those don’t seem like particularly wise or supportive friends to me. I would kindly suggest that this romance is most likely creating drama for the office rumour mill… I would say that your friends at home have a much more realistic take on the situation.

Unless, and until, she leaves her current partner, I think you would be wise to take a step back. And, when she comes back to you… rather than taking that as a sign that she loves you more, I would restate my expectation - unless, and until, she is unattached, I would not be interested.

As glows said above, feels are just feelings - if we acted on every feeling that we had, we would find ourselves in some difficult situations. In love, as in life, we must think with our heart AND our head. Your head is telling you that there are serious concerns here - you’ve spelled them out in your post… I wouldn’t ignore that. 

They don't encourage her to dump her boyfriend, it is a topic they don't discuss. You could be true, but in general, that topic is not discussed in the office, at least within the group of people hanging around. I am taking the step back now, we stopped communicating since Thursday, wait and see...

[Tagasok]

42 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Feelings are feelings, yes indeed.  But feelings are not responsible for you engaging in messaging 50-60 times per day with this woman.  That's BEHAVIOR.  

You both know how you feel.   All of this extravagant dramatic behavior is not going to progress your relationship in any way, as you already know.  If there is any prospect for a future - I do not happen to believe it's possible - way way too much dysfunction in multiple ways coming from all parties, but what do I really know - it's not going to suddenly blossom out of this behavior.  

If you stop it, if anything will happen, you will be giving it the space to happen.  That would be her relationship ending, and then her reaching out to you to get together.

As long as you are so enmeshed in this drama, please do not keep trying to date other women unless they are ONLY interested in casual flings.  It's not fair to women who are looking for a relationship to date men who are emotionally completely unavailable.  

I am quite honest about the fact that I am in a situationship with the women I meet. She is kind of passive with every aspect of her life, I am taking a step back now and let's see if she lets the situation drowing...

What really strikes me in her attitude, is that it looks she would like her boyfriend to initiate the breakup, not her. I have no idea why is not doing it, given what I know he knows.

[Tagasok]

3 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Feelings are feelings. Sure. But you do know that if we gave in to our feelings all of the time we'd be in big trouble! Being in love with someone who is in love with someone else is not a recipe for happiness. Man, that must be painful. But pain is a message and sometimes a good teacher.

I feel really bad that you're in this limbo of hope and pain, but the reality is that K is not giving you clear signals or actions that she wants to be with you.

My take is that you're a stand-up guy, not a "relentless pursuer." I read your message to be preoccupied and hurt. That makes sense. K keeps you dangling. Do you really want a partner who is "unavailable?"

I did not mean to imply for you to be "flush with some alternative prospects," to quote that message. I meant that your goal is realistic IF you let go of K. She's having what is commonly called a "consciousness problem." Your feelings of being "totally drained/ emotionally exhausted/ emotionally bruised/lovelorn are intense. I have seen so many encounters and conversations along the years with people who "sell themselves down the river" with people who give them crumbs, some of them hot and sexy crumbs, in return for devotion and dreams.

Some people do this once. Some people do this over and over and over. That's how therapy was invented.

Can you develop what you mean by "I did not mean to imply for you to be "flush with some alternative prospects," to quote that message. I meant that your goal is realistic IF you let go of K." ?

[Tagasok]

18 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

How far apart are you now? Are there any local single available women in your area you could date? 

Unfortunately you don't seem ready to settle down. You seem to keep breaking up with women on whims and chasing daydreams. If anything, this woman is just a muse and a way to avoid relationships. 

Keep in mind unavailable people choose other unavailable people. So in that sense a woman in a relationship living with her BF is "safe", because between the fact that you worked together, she lives with her BF and now you're in different countries, this extended fantasy will keep you from having serious relationships, which you seem to be avoiding.

We are 2-hours flight apart. I guess there are women here, but I am not in the mood to chase around for ONS and not really keen to settle down if I don't feel a connection like I feel with K...

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Tagasok said:

 not really keen to settle down if I don't feel a connection like I feel with K...

Exactly. By having this unavailable woman as your muse and fantasy "relationship", you can avoid real relationships. 

[NuevoYorko]

21 hours ago, Tagasok said:

 

What really strikes me in her attitude, is that it looks she would like her boyfriend to initiate the breakup, not her. I have no idea why is not doing it, given what I know he knows.

Well ... what really matters is what she DOES.  Not what it "looks like" to you, or why you think she might be making the choices she is.

I can almost guarantee you that if they broke up, the two of you would have little to no chance of some type of fairytale ending as you seem to believe you would.  She is very messed up and if she were to ever get herself and her life together it would take some concentrated effort on her part.  An immediate leap into another relationship, especially one she started while in the current one, is not going to set her up for success and definitely not set the new relationship up for it either.

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, Tagasok said:

…not really keen to settle down if I don't feel a connection like I feel with K...

But you don’t have a connection to K. You’re not together. Any connection you feel is a product of your imagination. 
 

The fact that you gave up a stable relationship, for the toxic drama that you’re describing says more about you than anything else. Time to book an appointment with a therapist. 

[ExpatInItaly]

12 hours ago, Tagasok said:

feel a connection like I feel with K..

Your connection with her isn't a healthy one, though. 

It doesn't exist in the reality of an actual relationship between you two. A lot of the time, these lightning-hot connections burn brightly because they are only affairs and not subjected to the day-to-day events of a real relationship. They're exciting and fun and intense, but they often don't actually have the legs to take it further. I can't tell you how many times I have seen affairs crumble as soon as the couple really starts a relationship. Suddenly that person who was your drink of water in the desert (so to speak) isn't that appealing once water is available in abundance. 

There is a reason most affairs don't survive the transition to relationship. Be very careful what you wish for here. 

[Acacia98]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:45 PM, Tagasok said:

She told me she is unhappy in her relationship since she met me. Indeed, she might be lying but I still believe her. If she is lying to me and has no intention to leave him since day 1, then the other contributor is right saying that the situation is sordid and I would have frankly some difficulties understanding why a human being would inflict that to someone who declare his feelings in the most honest way possible.

She's not you. Don't make the mistake of assuming she thinks like you do and sees the world as you do. Don't assume she shares your values and desire for honesty. Don't even assume she knows what she wants. Maybe she's just trying out this adventure with you because it's different from her regular life, and when she gets bored, she'll drop you.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:56 PM, Tagasok said:

They don't have kids. They are together for 7 years, engaged for 5 but not married ("she does not believe in it", unclear why she got engaged then). It's unclear to me if why they don't have kids, if they are not really trying or if there are fertility problems involved.

You realize you're basically saying you don't know this woman, right? If you don't know what she feels about kids, and what obstacles she may have faced, what else might you not know? How can you claim to love her when you don't know this stuff about her?

On 11/7/2023 at 11:44 AM, Tagasok said:

What is  worries me is that it's not like I stayed passive and just kept pursuing her during all this time. We had multiple episodes where I pulled back for some time but at the end we always get back in touch.

(...)

The thing that worries me the most is that I can not get interested by other women, and especially this kind of second relationship with a very beautiful and attractive girl, I could not find the strength to establish the connection and let go K. The paradox is that it did not boost my confidence at all but quite the opposite. 

(...)

It's difficult to just ignore the opinion of our common friends to keep pushing or her "we will be together one day but for now I need space/a bit of time" messages...

1. And that is unfortunate. You see, your situation illustrates why, when we break up with someone, we are typically best off blocking them everywhere. Completely cutting ties gives you the chance to get over her and to heal, it prevents her from taking advantage of a moment of weakness on your part to pull you back in.

2. IMO, this is the elephant in the room. There must be something in your psychological makeup that makes an unavailable woman whom you will never truly be with appeal to you. What were your early experiences, OP? Was one of your parents emotionally inaccessible to you or absent and beyond your reach during your formative years?

3. I hope you will one day come to the realization that when it comes to relationships, even friends whom we hold in high regard can be fools who don't know what they're talking about. And the woman you think you love clearly doesn't know the first thing about how to be in a healthy relationship; so you really shouldn't be listening to her claims/promises about being together one day. 

Edited to add:

OP, do yourself a favor and do a Google search for "hoovering and breadcrumbs". Read through the articles that pop up and see whether they give you any insight into your situation.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Acacia98

[Tagasok]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:32 PM, NuevoYorko said:

Well ... what really matters is what she DOES.  Not what it "looks like" to you, or why you think she might be making the choices she is.

I can almost guarantee you that if they broke up, the two of you would have little to no chance of some type of fairytale ending as you seem to believe you would.  She is very messed up and if she were to ever get herself and her life together it would take some concentrated effort on her part.  An immediate leap into another relationship, especially one she started while in the current one, is not going to set her up for success and definitely not set the new relationship up for it either.

You have a point, I do agree that she would need time for herself if she eventually breaks up.

[Tagasok]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:11 PM, Weezy1973 said:

But you don’t have a connection to K. You’re not together. Any connection you feel is a product of your imagination. 
 

The fact that you gave up a stable relationship, for the toxic drama that you’re describing says more about you than anything else. Time to book an appointment with a therapist. 

I guess a therapist would be indeed a good idea.

For context, we were having difficult time in my previous relationship, I could have tried more to fix more the situation but I am unsure it would have worked. We are still in good speaking terms with my ex and she understands the situation. 

[Tagasok]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:11 PM, ExpatInItaly said:

Your connection with her isn't a healthy one, though. 

It doesn't exist in the reality of an actual relationship between you two. A lot of the time, these lightning-hot connections burn brightly because they are only affairs and not subjected to the day-to-day events of a real relationship. They're exciting and fun and intense, but they often don't actually have the legs to take it further. I can't tell you how many times I have seen affairs crumble as soon as the couple really starts a relationship. Suddenly that person who was your drink of water in the desert (so to speak) isn't that appealing once water is available in abundance. 

There is a reason most affairs don't survive the transition to relationship. Be very careful what you wish for here. 

I agree the connection is not healthy. But I don't know, the time spent is already quite long, I would have expected the excitement to fade away already...

[Tagasok]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:30 PM, Acacia98 said:

She's not you. Don't make the mistake of assuming she thinks like you do and sees the world as you do. Don't assume she shares your values and desire for honesty. Don't even assume she knows what she wants. Maybe she's just trying out this adventure with you because it's different from her regular life, and when she gets bored, she'll drop you.

You realize you're basically saying you don't know this woman, right? If you don't know what she feels about kids, and what obstacles she may have faced, what else might you not know? How can you claim to love her when you don't know this stuff about her?

1. And that is unfortunate. You see, your situation illustrates why, when we break up with someone, we are typically best off blocking them everywhere. Completely cutting ties gives you the chance to get over her and to heal, it prevents her from taking advantage of a moment of weakness on your part to pull you back in.

2. IMO, this is the elephant in the room. There must be something in your psychological makeup that makes an unavailable woman whom you will never truly be with appeal to you. What were your early experiences, OP? Was one of your parents emotionally inaccessible to you or absent and beyond your reach during your formative years?

3. I hope you will one day come to the realization that when it comes to relationships, even friends whom we hold in high regard can be fools who don't know what they're talking about. And the woman you think you love clearly doesn't know the first thing about how to be in a healthy relationship; so you really shouldn't be listening to her claims/promises about being together one day. 

Edited to add:

OP, do yourself a favor and do a Google search for "hoovering and breadcrumbs". Read through the articles that pop up and see whether they give you any insight into your situation.

 

1. When we have period of no-contact, I have anyway news from her through whatsapp groups or common friends. I don't understand why she posts on these groups while we are supposed to take a break but looks like we can't help it... She was at a wedding on Saturday and was posting messages every 20 minutes...

2. I understand why you wonder this but my parents were a happy couple and great parents. Most of people around me are in long-term relationships and that is something I vouch for.

3. I realize that but it's also the only people seeing us interacting together, on the contrary of my other friends. I totally agree that I can't trust her when she says that we will be together on day.

I checked the terms, it could indeed apply to my situation but she is not giving me "crumbs" of attention but actually a lot. She claims that the personal stuff she is sharing with me, she doesn't share with anybody else.  

[BaileyB]

31 minutes ago, Tagasok said:

But I don't know, the time spent is already quite long, I would have expected the excitement to fade away already...

The excitement of an affair does not fade away… It’s thrilling to have a secretive affair with another person. Emotions are heightened because your time together is limited and you have this shared secret. Not only that, what you don’t experience is the day to day stress and annoyances of a long term relationship. You aren’t arguing over bills, or household chores, or the fact that she snores and you can’t sleep! You are chasing a high, enjoying every contact, in much the same way that people in a new romantic relationship do - but it does not progress in the same way a romantic relationship does because the very nature of the relationship is different.

31 minutes ago, Tagasok said:

the time spent is already quite long

Beware of the sunk cost fallacy. 

And remember, she has spent more time with her current partner than she has spent with you. She has a lot invested in her current relationship and unless/until she actually leaves her current partner, you would be wise not to underestimate this…
 

Edited November 13, 2023 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

13 minutes ago, Tagasok said:

She claims that the personal stuff she is sharing with me, she doesn't share with anybody else.

That may be true, but it doesn’t mean that she doesn’t go home to crawl into bed with her boyfriend. 

You do realize that this is classic manipulation, right? Most people who are otherwise committed and having and having an affair say this kind of stuff - because if she didn’t, you wouldn’t be willing to invest in the affair. If she told you that she had an active sex life with her partner, that she had no intention of ever leaving him and she was trying to have his baby… you wouldn’t be texting and hanging on her every move. She is building trust, creating a feeling of intimacy, when she says these things… the problem is, her actions don’t match her words. Because the truth is, she shares all these things and more with her current partner. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t be choosing to stay in that relationship. 

[glows]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:44 AM, Tagasok said:

Thank you very much for your answers that I really take into consideration, even if of course it's not what I wanted to hear ahah.

As for my previous relationship, we had some struggles before K appeared, mostly logistics (paperwork and so on) and end of honeymoon phase. So maybe it would have finished anyway. Somehow we faced the same situation with K (my relationship was 4 years old and hers 6 and more unbalanced I would say but still). It looks like we are making different choices about it... 

What is  worries me is that it's not like I stayed passive and just kept pursuing her during all this time. We had multiple episodes where I pulled back for some time but at the end we always get back in touch. The thing that worries me the most is that I can not get interested by other women, and especially this kind of second relationship with a very beautiful and attractive girl, I could not find the strength to establish the connection and let go K. The paradox is that it did not boost my confidence at all but quite the opposite. At the end, this period with someone was not way more fulfilling that the ones where I was trying to give up, single.

It's difficult to just ignore the opinion of our common friends to keep pushing or her "we will be together one day but for now I need space/a bit of time" messages...

Thank you for all the answers !

It’s not realistic to expect to “feel” anything for anyone else when you’re still communicating with your crush/this woman. This is a self fulfilling prophecy. “I can’t feel for anyone else” yet still keeping doors open for this woman. 

It seems this is your main problem. You lack the ability/discipline to cut off completely and yet expect miracles like feeling romantic for someone else/new. That’s not going to happen, my friend. You pick one and you stick with it. Pick moving forward, cut off communication and move on. Don’t expect to have your cake and eat it too then complain that it’s too hard. That’s not how it works. 
 

Edited November 13, 2023 by glows

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Tagasok said:

When we have period of no-contact, I have anyway news from her through whatsapp groups or common friends. I don't understand why she posts on these groups while we are supposed to take a break but looks like we can't help it...

Indeed, it’s not “no contact” if you continue to read her posts in shared social media apps. It sounds like she is living her life, something you should be doing as well. I’m not sure why you would expect that she wouldn’t communicate in this chat group of friends because you have both decided to take a break from your affair. 

If you can’t cope with occasional contact as you are both part of this group, you may need to find a new group of  friends. It shouldn’t be too hard to do considering that you literally live in a different country! 

Edited November 13, 2023 by BaileyB

[ExpatInItaly]

2 hours ago, Tagasok said:

I agree the connection is not healthy. But I don't know, the time spent is already quite long, I would have expected the excitement to fade away already...

This is where you are being rather naive, if I may be blunt. 

Of course the exctiment is still there. You two have never actually dated and had a real relationship. Still being excited an about an affair partner means little. The real test is when a couple dates each other and deal with the daily challenges and doldrums. You two haven't even scratched the surface of that. 

2 hours ago, Tagasok said:

don't understand why she posts on these groups while we are supposed to take a break

I don't understand why you though she wouldn't continue posting there. They aren't private chats with you, so they have nothing do with you two taking a break. I think you are reaching (and hoping) for hidden meaning there when there likely isn't any. 

2 hours ago, Tagasok said:

She claims that the personal stuff she is sharing with me, she doesn't share with anybody else.

Exactly - she claims. And you already know she isn't an honest person. You would be foolish to believe much of what she says. 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, Tagasok said:

 I have anyway news from her through whatsapp groups or common friends. I don't understand why she posts on these groups while we are supposed to take a break but looks like we can't help it... 

Why wouldn't she?  They're her friend group. She's not contacting you directly, is she? 

[Tagasok]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:08 PM, Wiseman2 said:

Why wouldn't she?  They're her friend group. She's not contacting you directly, is she? 

She has other groups where the same people are but not me. I frankly don't believe it's coincidence

[Tagasok]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:50 PM, ExpatInItaly said:

This is where you are being rather naive, if I may be blunt. 

Of course the exctiment is still there. You two have never actually dated and had a real relationship. Still being excited an about an affair partner means little. The real test is when a couple dates each other and deal with the daily challenges and doldrums. You two haven't even scratched the surface of that. 

I don't understand why you though she wouldn't continue posting there. They aren't private chats with you, so they have nothing do with you two taking a break. I think you are reaching (and hoping) for hidden meaning there when there likely isn't any. 

Exactly - she claims. And you already know she isn't an honest person. You would be foolish to believe much of what she says. 

Kind of get your point. Only, as per previous message, she created that group after we decided to have a pause in our communications while she is sitting in the same room every day than the people in the group and has other groups with them where I am not included.

You are correct when you say that I can't take her word. What can I say ? it would be tough to realize that for the first time my instinct/gut feelings were wrong... And I would rather be certain of it. At this stage, the only stuff i would hope is to get a "Sorry I don't pick you / it was a game"