Date seems keen but wanted to split the check?

[Mercedes7]

My Mom used to tell me that men will be insulted and / or think  I am not interested if I offer to pay when they have asked me out.  But, I do think there is a generational aspect to this.  Gen X and Boomers did not grow up with the internet or dating apps - so generally we were raised in a more formal / traditional dating culture.   I remember seeing a clip from Steve Harvey (who is in his 60s) saying that men do not appreciate it when women offer to pay, basically they feel insulted - that is kind of how I was brought up. It is just more old school.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Mercedes7

[smackie9]

Like I said everyone's expectations are different...so if you are the type that likes it when a man pays, then you date that type of man. If you have a man that sees women to be more liberated in these types of scenarios, then you avoid said type of man. That's why we date...to see if they fulfill our expectations, especially when it comes to core values, and finances. None of the expectations from either perspectives are good or bad, just different. 

I still believe this guy has financial strains due to his circumstances being newly divorced. So OP I believe what you see is what you get with this single dad. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by smackie9

[Gaeta]

5 hours ago, Mercedes7 said:

My Mom used to tell me that men will be insulted and / or think  I am not interested if I offer to pay when they have asked me out.  But, I do think there is a generational aspect to this.  Gen X and Boomers did not grow up with the internet or dating apps 

I am gen x as well and l expect the man will pick up the bill if he invites me on our first meal but l do make a point of paying our date when we go out for our 3rd date and l warn him ahead that the date is my treat.

I have a daughter who's millenial and another one that is gen Z. Both their boyfriends paid their first few dates as well. I am always surprised at how the younger generations aren't that different than us in the dating department. 

[Gaeta]

5 hours ago, smackie9 said:

so if you are the type that likes it when a man pays, then you date that type of man

I think she wants a man that pays if he makes the invitation especially a first meal out as a 2nd or 3rd date. It's the gentlaman thing to do. I don't think she wants a man that pays all the time....@babybrowns can confirm.

[Alpacalia]

I'm not a fan of the idea that a guy should pay just because it's seen as the gentlemanly thing to do. What if he's not even interested in her romantically? Is he supposed to pay for her time just because she's a woman?

It's messed up that straight guys are expected to foot the bill on dates, and it's even tougher for women. It keeps this idea of nice-guy sexism going, painting women as awesome but fragile and always needing a guy's help to get by. Guys who are romantically inclined want to be the ones to impress a woman, taking charge by asking her out, planning the date, and covering the expenses. If he doesn't, it might just mean he’s not super into it. When he covers the tab for entertainment, dinner, or drinks, it's a clear signal of his intentions...

That it's not about just hanging out as friends or attending a networking event—it's a romantic D-A-T-E.

I can't say how I would feel in the OP's shoes, I have not been asked or taken up on the offer to split a bill, like ever, so I have to withhold judgement on the situation. I do agree BB that if you didn't want to split the bill don't offer. I do think it is nice when someone offers to pay for a meal, but I don't think it should be expected or upheld as a "gentlemanly" behavior that is a must.

But, like has been said, different perspectives and different personalities might work differently and for some people it might be very important.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Gaeta]

21 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

What if he's not even interested in her romantically? Is he supposed to pay

This is a dating context. It's also not the first time they meet, l think it's the 3rd time. In a dating context, if he's not romantically interested he should not be making dinner invitation. 

[Alpacalia]

I wouldn't base your decision on him agreeing to split the bill when you offered BB.

Base it on the fact that his current lifestyle, his early offer of inviting you over to his house, and saying he wants to be in a relationship with you after two dates. That tells me that he is looking for something very casual and possibly just a Netflix and chill type of relationship. If that is not something you are looking for, then I would suggest being upfront with him and explaining that you are looking for something more serious and that his lifestyle and behavior on the dates do not align with that. 

But instead, you're looking at him agreeing to split the check as some sort of test or way to manipulate the situation. Don't do that. Decide if he's right for you objectively, based on his intentions and actions.

You seem to think that a man paying for you equates to your value as a woman, and that's just not true. Your value as a person is not based on who pays for dinner. So focus less on what he does or doesn't do for you, and focus more on if he is looking for the same kind of relationship that you are and if he treats you with respect and kindness. That is much more important than who pulls out their wallet on a date.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Alpacalia

[babybrowns]

Hello all,

Thanks a lot for your further replies and inputs.

Just to clarify that yes with the title of this thread I am not referring to a lifestyle of ‘the man always pays’- I am talking about the first 1-3 dates. If a man asks a woman to dinner for their second date, it would be the right thing for him to pay. 

Having said that, I decided to meet this man again for a third date which was a drinks date. Granted, he did hesitate for a couple of moments when the bar man asked him if we are paying separately for our 2 drinks or together, but then he finally said “uh, together”. Despite the moment of him thinking about it, I thanked him for this decision and showed him I appreciate it.

Not only that, but he came to our third date bringing a very nice gift for me which he bought very thoughtfully, based on his good listening on our previous dates as to the kinds of things I like and don’t like. He spent some of this third date trying to convince me further, that he really wants to put his past behind him and build something new with someone again, and that he is very keen on me.

I did say to him that I can’t jump into a relationship until some more time has passed, since his ex of 7 years left him just 4 months ago. He understands fully and said he doesn’t want to push me into anything I don’t feel comfortable with, but that he would love to continue seeing me. I said I feel the same and would love to continue seeing him too.

What is slightly worrying though is that, when I asked him if he still has feelings for his ex, he said “I love her, as the mother of my child.” Not sure whether to take this literally or whether to run for the hills at this comment? He said to me that he and his ex hadn’t been intimate for about a year before they broke up, and that they were staying together just for their son. He said he wanted his son to still have the sensation of a family unit with mother and father.  So lingering romantic feelings I guess are not a concern.

I did ask him if he’d still be up for going out with his ex and their son during the holidays if she asked him to go out, to which he said “I don’t think she likes me very much” in oppose to the other way round, which is yet another worry. From what he says, his ex was quite nasty and abusive towards him despite him tolerating it and putting up with it purely for the sake of their son, as he says.

This man and I are starting to get a little closer but I am so far managing to keep emotions at bay as to not get attached. But I don’t want to end up sleeping with a man who still says he “loves his ex”, regardless of all his vocalisation about carrying the torch for new beginnings. At the same time, he ticks a lot of boxes, more than most men whom I have dated, that I don’t want to lose him yet.

Tricky as to what to do!

[Wiseman2]

51 minutes ago, babybrowns said:

 I said I feel the same and would love to continue seeing him too.  he ticks a lot of boxes, more than most men whom I have dated, that I don’t want to lose him yet.

It's good you gave him another chance. What kind of boxes does he tick? All you can do is what you're doing and pace yourself. It's good he loves the mother of his child as a person and tries to have a coparenting relationship for the sake of his child.  Is he legally divorced? Do they still live together? 

[glows]

Maybe take all you know and do a bit of thinking if you’d still be uncomfortable with his background and circumstances weeks or months from now. He seems eager to move on but I’d also be hesitant getting involved with someone like this, not certain if he’s battling loneliness and desperation filling a void or if he’s truly with you for you. 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, babybrowns said:

This man and I are starting to get a little closer but I am so far managing to keep emotions at bay as to not get attached. But I don’t want to end up sleeping with a man who still says he “loves his ex”, regardless of all his vocalisation about carrying the torch for new beginnings.

Well if you want to keep your emotions at bay and dont' want to end up having sex with a guy who may still love his ex, then don't.  Don't have sex with him until you are secure about the things you feared.  If he truly cares for you he will wait.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, babybrowns said:

’- I am talking about the first 1-3 dates. If a man asks a woman to dinner for their second date, it would be the right thing for him to pay.

So now that you’ve been on 3 dates is the next one your treat? Or will you insist on paying your share and mean it (as opposed to it being a test)?

[Gaeta]

6 hours ago, babybrowns said:

since his ex of 7 years left him just 4 months ago

Oh god....

Why do you get in these situations?

Going through a divorce is hard even if the last year was difficult. It's a long process of figuring out what we want next.

I would never have gone on a first date with a man 4 months out of a marriage of 7 years. It's like offering yourself on a silver platter to be used as a rebound.

I also don't see the point of dating a man you'll have to guard your feelings because you already know he's a huge risk.

I congrats you for giving him another chance but you're giving a second chance to the wrong man.

I could write the next chapter of this relationship my eyes close. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Gaeta

[BaileyB]

6 hours ago, babybrowns said:

So lingering romantic feelings I guess are not a concern.

I would not be so sure about that. 

It does not seem like a wise decision to be dating a man who shares a child with another woman four months after the mother of his child left him. Regardless of who pays for the drinks…

Edited November 20, 2023 by BaileyB

[Alpacalia]

An explicit expectation was set by yourself purposely and then when he didn't fit your expectation you judged him (and his character) harshly based on that non-conformance as not being a gentlemen.

Worse, you foregone the expectation setting up a win-lose scenario -- "the potentiality of a romantic outcome" versus dating someone who obviously wasn't moving in the right circles relative to your expectation.

I mention this last one because you're setting yourself up for failure.

Clearly there was no agreement of any kind between you relating to who pays -- you just unilaterally seem to feel the man should and that there's something wrong with him if he doesn't. If he knew about your expectation and then stiffed you, that's different but it sounds like this is more about your expectation than it is about any actual conversation or understanding between the two of you.

Should chivalry be important? Well, sure, provided we all know what chivalry is and in this context, it seems as though you have opted for chivalry in the form of your expectation rather than someone doing something a bit noble which, arguably, is what they were supposed to do.

If you really feel that the person you dated is deficient and a deal breaker, end it now.

However, I don't think you were looking for a date so you could write about their deficits and would appreciate half the benefits of chivalry -- you wanted a person to date who you respect and who respects you. Think about this for a moment. Did HE respect YOU, here? The answer is probably more "but of course" rather than a definite "no", given he picked up the tab for the drink. 

Back up now, because you're already asking questions related not to how your dating has progressed but when (or if) he might be reconciled with his ex. So, he loves his ex -- how refreshing that he respects the mother of his child, enough to hold her in high regard. How on earth does this comment end up on par with someone having lingering romantic feelings when he was carrying a torch?

He's an ex, not Abraham, and the comment about the ex and him not getting along didn’t sound like he was worried about losing his rose colored glasses about what she isn't like. 

Instead, he's reasonably stating that there is a possibility they might not be getting along, anymore, but might still have to spend time together for their child.

At this point, based on everything I've read, you know next to nothing about this person. I'm not saying that information isn't forthcoming, or that you shouldn't ask questions, but there's a couple silver warnings here that you want to address.

The first is simply to recover and back away from your judgmental position about who pays -- that topic is entirely off the table now.

Secondly, it sounds like you've never had a conversation with him where he wasn't setting himself up for failure. There is a way to have an honest and sincere conversation that really does dig into "the truth" about a custody issue, the level of respect he has for his ex rather than about whom he'd prefer to spend time with his son if he had to pick between his girlfriend and his ex.

I know this might not sound right, but have you ever thought that part of your distress isn't over the man you're dating because he couldn't care enough that, when you announced your expectations, he must have been lucky to get out at that point? The thing is, men often don't respond well (or at all) to the expectation thing, and there are some hard reasons related to this.

One reason is that that kind of woman is making the dating process all about them so he's likely going to get used to paddling no matter where he is in the dating arrangement. Having said that, the second reason (which is the real problem here) is that putting all the emphasis on expectation is likely to ruin the relationship. It sets up as a one-sided deal where everything is win-lose.

If a man paying for your date is an expectation for you, fine. As you note, your need for this is far less emotional and far more about something you really are clear about when you make an invitation.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Giovane]

If you offer to pay but do not actually wish to pay, then you are not a "woman of your word". You don't mean what you say and don't say what you mean.

[NuevoYorko]

I agree that it's your prerogative to only be interested in men who pay for your food and drinks.   

I do not agree that this is an appropriate area for any types of manipulative testing.   Please do NOT offer to split the check if you are going to hold it against a man who accepts.  

On this recent date you seem to still be testing and  judging him primarily on his readiness to pay for what you consume:

Quote

Granted, he did hesitate for a couple of moments when the bar man asked him if we are paying separately for our 2 drinks or together, but then he finally said “uh, together”. Despite the moment of him thinking about it, I thanked him for this decision and showed him I appreciate it. 

He barely passed this "test" but evidently did.

Now you are hung up on his use of the word "love" when referring to the mother of his child.

This would be highly appropriate, in my opinion.

BUT.  All the real red flags that he has been up front about and that are already part of the conversation here?  You are just ignoring them.  

You remain focussed on superficial things that, from my perspective, are just about how INTO you a man appears to be in the first moments of meeting you.  When he does not know you and you don't know him.

If he performs certain behaviors that feed that part of your ego, you are all in.  Typically, this is followed by severe disappointment when the men reliably disappear because they weren't that "into" you as time went on.   

So getting all the strokes on a first or second meet from a dating app don't really add up to meaning much besides a good feeling that lasts for a little while.  

This includes a guy being what you call "chivalrous" and paying for what you eat or drink.

[Kassieee]

Because who has time be like " I'll pay" "no I'll pay " " noo let me", back and forth with the other person. 

He seems like a catch to me, ... doesnt play that "let me pay" game...he's not a sucker that feels like he should always have to pay for a person who's not even his girlfriend.

Edited November 20, 2023 by SlimShadysWife

[introverted1]

BB, it seems to me that you continue to value the wrong things.  Whether or not a man pays for dates 1-3 is far less important than so many other things.

In this case, you have a man who:

1. Is almost definitely emotionally unavailable, due to the recency at which his ex left him (no matter what he tells you, it is completely unlikely anyone is ready for a new relationship just 4 months after the end of a 7 year relationship). In fact, his insistence that he wants to "put his past behind him" is practically proof of his lack of readiness: he is drowning ad grasping at the first life preserver that comes along.
2. Has a small child - have you thought about the long-term implications of this?  Are you prepared to share time with a 4yo? To be introduced to and in the life of this child?  Could you be a step-parent should things get to that (very unlikely) point?
3. Is less educated than you are (something you raised as a concern in your OP)
4. Is less ambitious/prestigious in terms of career (something else you raised in your OP)

In light of the above, the fact that he paid for your drinks is completely meaningless!  Ditto that he brought you a small present. Your eagerness to hook a guy who is "keen on" you is palpable but I fear it may be clouding your judgement. 

[basil67]

BB, there's a general rule of thumb that whoever earns more in a relationship shoulders more of the cost.  Now that we have the play acting of chivalry out of the way, are you fine to cover more than half of the costs of dating him?   Because if you're not, why are you messing about with a guy who's as poor as a church mouse?

[Alpacalia]

I find it telling that you create posts, vanish for days, and then return to act in complete contrast to your initial intentions.

Are you just at this point, posting, to post? 

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

I find it telling that you create posts, vanish for days, and then return to act in complete contrast to your initial intentions.

Are you just at this point, posting, to post? 

I was thinking the exact same thing?

[BrinnM]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:20 PM, babybrowns said:

did ask him if he’d still be up for going out with his ex and their son during the holidays if she asked him to go out, to which he said “I don’t think she likes me very much”

First of all - I’m glad you gave him another “chance”, because the splitting the check thing was obviously initiated by you. So it wasn’t his “fault”. You asked. In his mind, he complied with your wishes. He can’t mind-read, and if you offer, he would be foolish to assume you don’t mean it, or you just want to “test” him (although that’s exactly what you did). 
 

What bothers me more is what I quoted above. You asked a question, and his answer would be way too passive for my personal taste. [also - what does “going out for the holidays” mean? Visiting Santa in the mall with the child? That would be fine, even though you don’t need both parents for this, but I honestly don’t understand what you were asking there; and I’d be surprised if he didn’t ask you what you exactly meant by this]

Either way: Not sure how you see it, but I’d expect something along the lines of “No, we’re done. We’re just coparenting, and there is no relationship between us as individuals anymore. We broke up because [we have different values, we don’t love one another any longer, things have happened, we argued too much …… whatever]. And that’s it. We’re both moving on.”

His actual answer sounds like he was broken up with, and he would be open to reconcile. I don’t like it. 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by BrinnM

[helloladies21]

As someone with plenty of recent dating experience, this is a very difficult situation for a guy to be in and not something I've found an easy way to read. Obviously, there are women, such as yourself, who value these traditional dating roles and would prefer for the man to pay. You made a token offer to pay your share. But I have encountered some women who will get offended if a guy doesn't allow a woman to pay her share, or even pay for the entire meal/round/cover charge. They don't want to be infantilized or made to feel inferior, like they can't pay their own way.

You say he is a gentleman is every other respect, so, based on your description, that indicates he knows these roles. I suspect he wanted to respect your desire to not have to rely on him.

[babybrowns]

Hello all,

Thank you all so much for your further replies. Sorry that I cannot log on here that frequently; my job is very busy with long hours sometimes. I’ve been on LS for 10 years for anyone here who is assuming that I’m just casually on here when I feel like it and then disappear for no reason.

This guy was increasing the intensity of his eagerness a lot, texting me multiple times a day, showering me with his keenness and expressing how he was counting down the days until he saw me next. Being a busy career woman I couldn’t always reply to his messages on the spot, sometimes not for hours due to not having my phone on me at work, to which he seemed very patient and said no problem, he understands my long hours. Even on the day of our next scheduled date itself, he expressed a lot of excitement that morning about seeing me that evening.

However, he did a complete 180 just 2 hours before our long-awaited date. Said we have different lifestyles which might not match and wished me well.

This was very much unexpected and didn’t match all the enthusiastic buildup he was enforcing.  There was literally no sign of this coming. I am glad that thanks to all of you for drawing my attention to the bigger red flags than the one I wrote about, I half expected it to not proceed. Despite all his ‘I wanna relationship with you’ garbage.

I’ve asked him to never contact me again! Will definitely help to look at the more appropriate and bigger red flags in future.