Met someone great

[FredEire]

I think you're so stuck in analysis of every little tiny detail that you're forgetting it's supposed to be about having fun and getting to know someone. Ditch the pickup vids and manuals and just do what feels natural. It ain't a game of chess.

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think you're so stuck in analysis of every little tiny detail that you're forgetting it's supposed to be about having fun and getting to know someone. Ditch the pickup vids and manuals and just do what feels natural. It ain't a game of chess.

That approach has never ever worked for me. Hence trying to learn rather than trying to guess. Problem is nothing about dating feels natural to me so I need all the help I can get! 

Essentially though almost all the contact she has with me is about wanting to network with people I know, sure she is friendly but friendly is never an indication of anything more, add to the fact she can pretty much get any guy she likes and it becomes very tough for a guy who hardly ever got attractive matches on OLD to believe she would actually be interested.

 

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

 nothing about dating feels natural to me. Essentially though almost all the contact she has with me is about wanting to network with people 

No harm no foul. You didn't lose anything. She was polite, even though you seemed a bit aloof.

Perhaps networking is a good idea. But please don't use it as a test field for trying out pickup artist and dating gurus rhetoric and rubbish. 

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

That approach has never ever worked for me. Hence trying to learn rather than trying to guess. Problem is nothing about dating feels natural to me so I need all the help I can get! 

Essentially though almost all the contact she has with me is about wanting to network with people I know, sure she is friendly but friendly is never an indication of anything more, add to the fact she can pretty much get any guy she likes and it becomes very tough for a guy who hardly ever got attractive matches on OLD to believe she would actually be interested.

 

Sure, it doesn't come as naturally to some as others.

I agree with Wiseman though that "high-value/low-value beta/alpha" pickup stuff which scripts every interaction and obsesses over tiny body language signals is not only a waste of time it's counter productive.

If you feel it's something you need to study rather than it coming naturally I think you'd be better off studying general social skills stuff and just applying to dating.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Sure, it doesn't come as naturally to some as others.

I agree with Wiseman though that "high-value/low-value beta/alpha" pickup stuff which scripts every interaction and obsesses over tiny body language signals is not only a waste of time it's counter productive.

If you feel it's something you need to study rather than it coming naturally I think you'd be better off studying general social skills stuff and just applying to dating.

I do not have a problem with general social skills whereas I have a massive problem with dating. Which I suppose illustrates that perhaps for me at least some specific skills are needed in this regard. Make no mistake my interactions are no scripted but as has been proven my normal approach does not work at all, assuming of course I can even get a date/coffee meet up.

 

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

No harm no foul. You didn't lose anything. She was polite, even though you seemed a bit aloof.

Perhaps networking is a good idea. But please don't use it as a test field for trying out pickup artist and dating gurus rhetoric and rubbish. 

Well I disagree, if what they peddle was rubbish it would not work but seeing as it does seemingly work for some people there must be some merit in it. Way I see it there is not harm in trying some of it out with no expectations at all, frankly I do not really need this networking because its heavily one sided, slanted to her benefit rather than mine. Just about the only benefit I can derive is having an attractive, smart, outgoing "friend" to go to events with me, events that benefit her. Glass half full.

I am not unconvinced there is not something more to this but seeing as she is just out a long term relationship maybe its better I just do nothing.

 

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not have a problem with general social skills whereas I have a massive problem with dating. Which I suppose illustrates that perhaps for me at least some specific skills are needed in this regard. Make no mistake my interactions are no scripted but as has been proven my normal approach does not work at all, assuming of course I can even get a date/coffee meet up.

 

But the two are not separate, dating is a social skill, maybe that's where the problem lies. You can't be casual and relaxed with your friends and treat dating like it's some sort of hostage negotiation where every little comment and body language tic lowers or increases your perceived "value".

Take being an attractive guy who women will find attractive as a given, improve your physical attributes with gym, healthy diet, skincare etc and treat women the same as you would treat your friends, obviously while keeping in mind there's potential for something beyond friendship.

I say this from experience because I was into pickup stuff as a rather insecure teenager and my dating life only improved once I threw it in the bin.

[FredEire]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I disagree, if what they peddle was rubbish it would not work but seeing as it does seemingly work for some people there must be some merit in it. Way I see it there is not harm in trying some of it out with no expectations at all, frankly I do not really need this networking because its heavily one sided, slanted to her benefit rather than mine. Just about the only benefit I can derive is having an attractive, smart, outgoing "friend" to go to events with me, events that benefit her. Glass half full.

I am not unconvinced there is not something more to this but seeing as she is just out a long term relationship maybe its better I just do nothing.

 

It does work, but only for manipulating women into sex, it's not going to work for any sort of healthy longer term relationship because the way you charmed the woman into being with you was by putting on an act and not being yourself.

The way I view it, some people will have chemistry others just won't hit it off. The only way you'll have chemistry with everyone is to manipulate and change your personality as a lot of pickup artists do, but it's not an honest or a healthy way to live your life.

Edited November 27, 2023 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

But the two are not separate, dating is a social skill, maybe that's where the problem lies. You can't be casual and relaxed with your friends and treat dating like it's some sort of hostage negotiation where every little comment and body language tic lowers or increases your perceived "value".

Take being an attractive guy who women will find attractive as a given, improve your physical attributes with gym, healthy diet, skincare etc and treat women the same as you would treat your friends, obviously while keeping in mind there's potential for something beyond friendship.

I say this from experience because I was into pickup stuff as a rather insecure teenager and my dating life only improved once I threw it in the bin.

With respect I have done the work out and I mostly have the body I want but its a constant work in progress, while this has given me a bit more confidence there is always someone fitter, better looking etc. You are right casual and relaxed is generally not me at all, hence you will see the exchange I quoted earlier was me trying to be less intense and more casual.

There are many attractive ladies I simply would not want to date,  which is probably just as well as I am sure none of them wanted to date me either lol.

Ok so I throw everything I have been reading and watching into the metaphorical bin, then what? Go back to Dating sites where the only likes I get are from people I will never date? 

I'd rather read about the so called "rubbish" because if nothing I can relate to a lot of what things have not worked for me. For me I'd rathe read/listen to things I can relate to.

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

With respect I have done the work out and I mostly have the body I want but its a constant work in progress, while this has given me a bit more confidence there is always someone fitter, better looking etc. You are right casual and relaxed is generally not me at all, hence you will see the exchange I quoted earlier was me trying to be less intense and more casual.

There are many attractive ladies I simply would not want to date,  which is probably just as well as I am sure none of them wanted to date me either lol.

Ok so I throw everything I have been reading and watching into the metaphorical bin, then what? Go back to Dating sites where the only likes I get are from people I will never date? 

I'd rather read about the so called "rubbish" because if nothing I can relate to a lot of what things have not worked for me. For me I'd rathe read/listen to things I can relate to.

Well you just said it yourself. Casual and relaxed is not you at all, therefore you need to work out why this is the case and work on it. You can't divorce your dating experience from how you relate to people in general. Women are people, this is what pickup stuff disregards, they're not some magical sex robot you have to feed "correct" answers to to get what you want.

It might be hard if you've invested a lot of time in it but yeah I think the answer is to put it away and look elsewhere, you're still here asking these questions so why keep beating a dead horse? I think people might find it hard to advise you because you're looking at it through a lens of pickup lingo, like a maths equation, when it's far more about where you and the girl you're into are in life and the energy/goals you're bringing to the table.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

It does work, but only for manipulating women into sex, it's not going to work for any sort of healthy longer term relationship because the way you charmed the woman into being with you was by putting on an act and not being yourself.

The way I view it, some people will have chemistry others just won't hit it off. The only way you'll have chemistry with everyone is to manipulate and change your personality as a lot of pickup artists do, but it's not an honest or a healthy way to live your life.

Well I do not intend to change my personality but I need to be able to read body language and I absolutely need to find fake confidence because I generally have very little of it. The best thing for me was to get off all dating apps. Sure, I have no tangible way to meet people now but seeing as I was not meeting anyone anyway it seems I have not lost out on much and I can hopefully stop wondering why nobody remotely slim likes me but I got tons of likes from the opposite.

I have hardly ever had chemistry, I am pretty stupid in this respect.

 

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Well you just said it yourself. Casual and relaxed is not you at all, therefore you need to work out why this is the case and work on it. You can't divorce your dating experience from how you relate to people in general. Women are people, this is what pickup stuff disregards, they're not some magical sex robot you have to feed "correct" answers to to get what you want.

It might be hard if you've invested a lot of time in it but yeah I think the answer is to put it away and look elsewhere, you're still here asking these questions so why keep beating a dead horse? I think people might find it hard to advise you because you're looking at it through a lens of pickup lingo, like a maths equation, when it's far more about where you and the girl you're into are in life and the energy/goals you're bringing to the table.

This is absolutely agree with. The big reason I find her attractive is there is quite a lot of common ground here in the sense that I think in some respect it would work, I have been stupid enough in the past to find people attractive who simply would simply not align with my life and me theirs, for example I had a great conversation once with someone very nice but here idea of fun was trance parties and everything that goes with them. 

Do you agree that its pointless trying to date someone where there is no real common ground on what I call life viewpoints? 

I am quite receptive to tangible ideas but salsa dancing and the like will be pushing it, likewise meet up. One stupid example of this was a fitness model who tried to charm me on IG despite there not being one picture of me on IG, I do post pictures of some parts of my life which appear glamorous (they are not really) and she was all over this. Needless to say I passed on this because I found this very unattractive whereas I am sure some other guys may have made the most of this mostly false perception.

A "player" I am not.

[FredEire]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I do not intend to change my personality but I need to be able to read body language and I absolutely need to find fake confidence because I generally have very little of it. The best thing for me was to get off all dating apps. Sure, I have no tangible way to meet people now but seeing as I was not meeting anyone anyway it seems I have not lost out on much and I can hopefully stop wondering why nobody remotely slim likes me but I got tons of likes from the opposite.

I have hardly ever had chemistry, I am pretty stupid in this respect.

 

Well there you go, again you said it yourself. Reading body language is a very general social skill. It affects friendships, family, business, etc. You can't just look at it through the lens of dating.

If you struggle with it you need to learn it as it applies to your life as a whole. There's a lot of good stuff out there but a lot of pickup material is some mumbo jumbo about the direction someone's feet are pointing and it's presented as an absolute rule. It doesn't work like that unfortunately.

Success breeds confidence so yeah maybe you need to just accept you are not confident at the moment but you are working on it.

And chemistry comes from being natural and having fun with the other person. You're not allowing that therefore you can't have chemistry. Paralysis through analysis.

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

This is absolutely agree with. The big reason I find her attractive is there is quite a lot of common ground here in the sense that I think in some respect it would work, I have been stupid enough in the past to find people attractive who simply would simply not align with my life and me theirs, for example I had a great conversation once with someone very nice but here idea of fun was trance parties and everything that goes with them. 

Do you agree that its pointless trying to date someone where there is no real common ground on what I call life viewpoints? 

I am quite receptive to tangible ideas but salsa dancing and the like will be pushing it, likewise meet up. One stupid example of this was a fitness model who tried to charm me on IG despite there not being one picture of me on IG, I do post pictures of some parts of my life which appear glamorous (they are not really) and she was all over this. Needless to say I passed on this because I found this very unattractive whereas I am sure some other guys may have made the most of this mostly false perception.

A "player" I am not.

It depends, if someone just wants to sleep around and have fun then common ground doesn't really matter but sexual chemistry and a sense of fun still does.

If you're more after a serious relationship as you seem to be then sure, it definitely helps to be on the same page on as many things as possible. If two people get on incredibly well they can always try and work around it but its difficult, for sure.

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It depends, if someone just wants to sleep around and have fun then common ground doesn't really matter but sexual chemistry and a sense of fun still does.

If you're more after a serious relationship as you seem to be then sure, it definitely helps to be on the same page on as many things as possible. If two people get on incredibly well they can always try and work around it but its difficult, for sure.

My view on this is, sure, I'd love to be one of those "fun' guys who can sleep around with their choice of lady with all the great confidence which no doubt arises from that unfortunately I am not attractive or fun. 

 

[semble]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That approach has never ever worked for me. 

In all fairness, nothing has ever worked for you.

Why is it so difficult to ask a girl if she'd like to go on a date with you?

What's the worst that can possibly happen?

 

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, semble said:

In all fairness, nothing has ever worked for you.

Why is it so difficult to ask a girl if she'd like to go on a date with you?

What's the worst that can possibly happen?

 

No problem asking people if I can determine they are single and interested, it's pretty clear she is only interested in networking.

You right nothing does work for me, must be my ☀️ personality. As people we can't choose our circumstances most of the time but we can choose how to react to them.

 

[semble]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No problem asking people if I can determine they are single and interested, it's pretty clear she is only interested in networking.

You right nothing does work for me, must be my ☀️ personality. As people we can't choose our circumstances most of the time but we can choose how to react to them.

 

You don't need to determine a damn thing.

You ask, and they say yes, or they say no.

Or you continue to do as you have always done, which is nothing, and blame factors supposedly beyond your control, and wonder why nothing ever changes.

 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, semble said:

You don't need to determine a damn thing.

You ask, and they say yes, or they say no.

Or you continue to do as you have always done, which is nothing, and blame factors supposedly beyond your control, and wonder why nothing ever changes.

 

It's always no so I stopped asking. She has made it pretty clear I am good for networking and nothing else so why even ask?

All I do there is look foolish for not taking a very obvious hint. If she were interested she would not take 5 days to respond to a text. Am I wrong?

I can deal with me and only me. How people view me I have limited control over. How attractive I am, well I know that already based on matches. This time I tried being more clever showing more personality, trying to carry more faked confidence because I actually liked the person in front of me and didn't have to force myself to find them attractive.

All I can do is read more, listen more and keep finding some confidence. I see nothing wrong with doing those things.

I think confidence and belief are two very different concepts.

[semble]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

All I do there is look foolish for not taking a very obvious hint. If she were interested she would not take 5 days to respond to a text. Am I wrong?

Guys don't look foolish when they ask out a girl and are rejected.

That's totally in your head and reflects your flawed way of thinking.

As to the rest of it, her intentions aren't fully clear. She could have given up since, you didn't ASK.

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, semble said:

Guys don't look foolish when they ask out a girl and are rejected.

That's totally in your head and reflects your flawed way of thinking.

As to the rest of it, her intentions aren't fully clear. She could have given up since, you didn't ASK.

Someone who has interest does not take 5 days to respond to a msg. I prefer not to be rejected, have had quite enough of that thanks. 

You tell me how you would continue with any form of relationship after being rejected? Do you not think that would be awkward?

I think the difference in our thinking is I work with probability and you work with "well who cares I'll try", neither is wrong but the latter is never going to work with someone who thinks analytically most of the time.  I have already thrown a lot of the latter thinking at this and every interaction I have had, what I will not do is take a total shot in the dark, especially because every single time I have tried it , its never ever worked. Of course you could argue you never know unless you do not try and I'd agree to a point but again probability? If this were someone with limited options sure then it might be worth it because the probability would be better.

Again its probably down to perceived self worth and mine is probably not as high as it should be but try as I might its difficult to reconcile getting NOT one attractive match on OLD platform in 10 years and suddenly I think someone attractive and dynamic is going to find me attractive, would seem highly unlikely and improbable. 

I am working on both confidence and self worth for no other reason than working on both makes me feel good, still does not make me feel attractive but there is some feel good.

[semble]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Someone who has interest does not take 5 days to respond to a msg. I prefer not to be rejected, have had quite enough of that thanks. 

You tell me how you would continue with any form of relationship after being rejected? Do you not think that would be awkward?

I think the difference in our thinking is I work with probability and you work with "well who cares I'll try", neither is wrong but the latter is never going to work

You "prefer not to be rejected" so you don't even try. If you don't try you will fail 100% of the time.

If you do try you might enjoy some successes even if you have yourself convinced the odds are extremely low.

Yes if I like a girl I will ask her out because I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain and I don't try to protect my feelings of possible hurt to such an extent that it limits my possibilities.

It's admittedly difficult to "continue with any form of relationship after being rejected". So what,  when I'm single I don't need nor want platonic women friends that probably wouldn't stick around anyway. And the woman that is the subject of this thread is not anything close to a "relationship" you barely have any contact with her.

[ZA Dater]

45 minutes ago, semble said:

You "prefer not to be rejected" so you don't even try. If you don't try you will fail 100% of the time.

If you do try you might enjoy some successes even if you have yourself convinced the odds are extremely low.

Yes if I like a girl I will ask her out because I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain and I don't try to protect my feelings of possible hurt to such an extent that it limits my possibilities.

It's admittedly difficult to "continue with any form of relationship after being rejected". So what,  when I'm single I don't need nor want platonic women friends that probably wouldn't stick around anyway. And the woman that is the subject of this thread is not anything close to a "relationship" you barely have any contact with her.

There is a possible business tie up which might be mutually beneficial so I am not going to throw that away taking a shot in the dark. When I look at it, there is no interest here at all from her side and I am once again getting the feeling of being "handled/manipulated" so she can derive a particular outcome, the exact feeling I have had in the past and walked straight into like a deer in the headlights. I am not prepared to repeat that mistake this time.

Attractive dynamic people figure me out very quickly, shy low on confidence with some useful short term attributes, unsuitable for dating but suitable to use for whatever purpose, take advantage of the agreeable personality and give just enough attention to keep said person on the hook.  Rinse repeat, have the T shirt.

If I could say OK I have been able to attract physically attractive people on dating sites then sure I'd back myself but that has never been the case, that is where my odds come from and its how I play them. Sure, I can sit at dinner and dazzle in my own way, usually because my general knowledge is better than everyone else at the table and I can engage on topics but this is largely rendered irrelevant. 

I am happy with how I attempted to build up some sort of conversation with her, she can clearly see I am not stupid (the forum may disagree) who can talk about many different things, has an enquiring mind and takes some interest. Are these things enough to make up for a lack of physical attraction, absolutely not. I was able to project a lot more confidence than even before and I could be me. 

Remember I cant flirt, I cant seduce, heck I cant even show interest most of the time so the bar is very low here in terms of my ability so I need just go out to do what I do well and keep doing that well.

The entire point of looking at these online talks was to understand why I fail, understand why others are more successful and understand why agreeable guys seldom succeed at dating, people can rubbish all this stuff but there is enough evidence to suggest many of these people are correct. Of course the other purpose was to get better and I think I managed that to some degree.

If nothing else I managed to reduce awkwardness to a very low level and increase confidence and I felt pretty good about finally having a possibility but on reflection there is no possibility its just enough one of those BS fantasy situations I seem to find myself in.

[Wiseman2]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am once again getting the feeling of being "handled/manipulated" so she can derive a particular outcome, the exact feeling I have had in the past and walked straight into like a deer in the headlights 

Networking is not manipulative. She had no idea of your inner musings. She was polite, appropriate, friendly and is just doing what people do at events (since you wouldn't ask her on a date).

She has no idea you follow dating gurus and were trying to put that into practice. You're not a victim because you found someone attractive. 

[Weezy1973]

Have to agree with @semble on this one. You just needed to ask her out. You’ve lost the window at this point. But as soon as you knew you were attracted to her and you were having a good conversation- even if it was just work related - that’s when you ask her on a date.

 

Confidence is an attractive quality in and amongst itself. Asking a woman out that you find attractive shows confidence, and she’ll find you more attractive because of it. Strangely, it would be an indicator of extreme confidence especially if you’re not conventionally attractive which women find very appealing.