Met someone great

[basil67]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure if she does not want to date me, honestly a probable outcome I can live with more so because she is "high value" whereas I am not at face value anyway of very high value. 

It sounds like you've made tremendous progress and I'm so happy for you.  But I think this "value" stuff is another habit you need to let go of.  It's all very incel in tone and will only hold you back.

All people have value, and the make or break is simply about how well the two connect and if there's chemistry between them.  Over many years, I've seen wealthy people who have fallen in love with people of limited means.  I've seen objectively attractive with not so attractive.  A dear friend is fun and interesting and adores her partner who is...well...not so fun and interesting.  Or perhaps shy?  I can't say because he didn't engage.   All in all, I don't consider anyone to be either high value or low value.  They are just people and we either connect romantically (or in casual discussion) or we don't

I hope that your new books have something about how nobody is really that special, that we are all human and we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I did not tell you to do that. I told you use your energy in searching someone else you find attractive. There is no point playing orbiter to a woman that friendzone you.

Little women you find attractive? That's an even bigger reason to not waste time on those who don't want to date you.

I think its the same issue I have always had, where to find people I do find attractive? Again I suppose it does not help being fairly particular and I tried to think about what I find attractive and why. 

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

It sounds like you've made tremendous progress and I'm so happy for you.  But I think this "value" stuff is another habit you need to let go of.  It's all very incel in tone and will only hold you back.

All people have value, and the make or break is simply about how well the two connect and if there's chemistry between them.  Over many years, I've seen wealthy people who have fallen in love with people of limited means.  I've seen objectively attractive with not so attractive.  A dear friend is fun and interesting and adores her partner who is...well...not so fun and interesting.  Or perhaps shy?  I can't say because he didn't engage.   All in all, I don't consider anyone to be either high value or low value.  They are just people and we either connect romantically (or in casual discussion) or we don't

I hope that your new books have something about how nobody is really that special, that we are all human and we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I think inherently to date someone needs to have qualities someone else desires, perhaps simplistic but maybe true to a point. Be it is a nice smile, a warm personality, a positive outlook on life, motivation in life etc.

I'll never be the life of a party but I can have good conversation, apathetic I am not, my general knowledge is pretty good, I live a fairly interesting life in some respects and an unconventional one in others. 

What I have opened my eyes to is the fact I simply will not appeal to everyone and not everyone will appeal to me. Dating aps will never work for me and I'd argue for some they do more damage than good but equally its challenging for me to meet people any other way. I have now been very specific in my profile what I like and what I do not like.

Hope is also a strong motivator when used in the correct manner. 

 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think inherently to date someone needs to have qualities someone else desires, perhaps simplistic but maybe true to a point. Be it is a nice smile, a warm personality, a positive outlook on life, motivation in life etc.

I think that semantics are possibly at play here.  If I hear the term "high value' I automatically think of investments, or future monetary returns.  For instance, a waterfront $5,000,000 house is high value where as a $300,000 house in a bad area is low value.   Conversely, if I was to describe a person, I think terms which describe their personality not only makes more sense, but are also more personal.  So while I'd never describe a person as "high value" but I would certainly say that he's warm, positive and motivated.   

You're dead right that we don't appeal to everyone. Nobody will appeal to everyone.   But we only need to find a mutual connection with one person to make it work.  

What options are you looking at as an alternative to OLD?

Lastly, I think you've got a chance with the lady in this discussion.  Colleagues don't generally hug, let alone give a close hug  

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I think that semantics are possibly at play here.  If I hear the term "high value' I automatically think of investments, or future monetary returns.  For instance, a waterfront $5,000,000 house is high value where as a $300,000 house in a bad area is low value.   Conversely, if I was to describe a person, I think terms which describe their personality not only makes more sense, but are also more personal.  So while I'd never describe a person as "high value" but I would certainly say that he's warm, positive and motivated.   

You're dead right that we don't appeal to everyone. Nobody will appeal to everyone.   But we only need to find a mutual connection with one person to make it work.  

What options are you looking at as an alternative to OLD?

Lastly, I think you've got a chance with the lady in this discussion.  Colleagues don't generally hug, let alone give a close hug  

Agree. It's often a defense mechanism against uncertainty to use this high-value/low-value stuff. You have to feel not intellectualise, and consider the actual person not some abstract ideas about game and pickup.

The people you judge as high-value are that way because they are interesting people who lead and take responsibility, and are open to others. It's not that they've cracked some Da Vinci maths code of dating. It doesn't work like that as much as so many pick up guys would want you to believe so that they buy your course. I think most women once they find you're giving rigid a/b responses to get her to sleep with/fall in love with your rather than just treating her as a person are going to find it highly unattractive.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

I think that semantics are possibly at play here.  If I hear the term "high value' I automatically think of investments, or future monetary returns.  For instance, a waterfront $5,000,000 house is high value where as a $300,000 house in a bad area is low value.   Conversely, if I was to describe a person, I think terms which describe their personality not only makes more sense, but are also more personal.  So while I'd never describe a person as "high value" but I would certainly say that he's warm, positive and motivated.   

You're dead right that we don't appeal to everyone. Nobody will appeal to everyone.   But we only need to find a mutual connection with one person to make it work.  

What options are you looking at as an alternative to OLD?

Lastly, I think you've got a chance with the lady in this discussion.  Colleagues don't generally hug, let alone give a close hug  

There are not any really. The alternative I had in mind and this is going to sound odd is to work on my approach to things and the way I think about them. I do really want companionship, I'd like to have someone to take to dinner and converse with and enjoy the more sensual things in life BUT again being pragmatic nobody is entitled to any of those things and they are not really basic human needs either. 

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

I think most women once they find you're giving rigid a/b responses to get her to sleep with/fall in love with your rather than just treating her as a person are going to find it highly unattractive.

Exactly this is my approach. However lets also be honest in certain setting this can work for guys. In the case of this particular lady, I suspect this would never work because she is seriously career minded and there is like me a big overlap between work and social. The perhaps inherent problem here is she is very outgoing and very people centric so friendliness and interest are difficult to discern but I am just going to have a conversation, let her steer it as much as possible.

One interesting take I had "by having someone agree to meet you, there is something about you that makes them want to meet you so already that is a good thing". I suspect she is going to want to steer things toward business which could be problematic but lets see.

Its odd really I actually thought even trying to go on a date with her would be a bad idea, a friend of mine who has know her longer than me has suggested actually its a good idea...though I suppose I should be aware of the "rebound" possibility. 

My approach is going to be to just be me but the best version of me.

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly this is my approach. However lets also be honest in certain setting this can work for guys. In the case of this particular lady, I suspect this would never work because she is seriously career minded and there is like me a big overlap between work and social. The perhaps inherent problem here is she is very outgoing and very people centric so friendliness and interest are difficult to discern but I am just going to have a conversation, let her steer it as much as possible.

One interesting take I had "by having someone agree to meet you, there is something about you that makes them want to meet you so already that is a good thing". I suspect she is going to want to steer things toward business which could be problematic but lets see.

Its odd really I actually thought even trying to go on a date with her would be a bad idea, a friend of mine who has know her longer than me has suggested actually its a good idea...though I suppose I should be aware of the "rebound" possibility. 

My approach is going to be to just be me but the best version of me.

I think in some cases faking it and putting on a front as some kind of pick up guru can get you one night of sex. But in terms of a partner or even friends with benefits it doesn't work.

And in any case my personal opinion having been around the block enough is that serial promiscuity, while the fun element of it draws men and women in, is something that does far more harm than good in the long run. Better off getting to know yourself and getting to know other people honestly and with an open mind.

Edited November 20, 2023 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think in some cases faking it and putting on a front as some kind of pick up guru can get you one night of sex. But in terms of a partner or even friends with benefits it doesn't work.

And in any case my personal opinion having been around the block enough is that serial promiscuity, while the fun element of it draws men and women in, is something that does far more harm than good in the long run. Better off getting to know yourself and getting to know other people honestly and with an open mind.

I have pretty much always struggled to date never mind intimacy, how much of that is my own doing, well some of it for sure. Poor confidence, shyness and not being very outgoing have done me no favors.

Socially I have a very limited social life and looks wise not enough to draw people I find physically attractive.

My view with this is to go and just be me like I was last time we met up, randomly at an event. I do think had the evening continued a bit longer things may have become interesting.

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have pretty much always struggled to date never mind intimacy, how much of that is my own doing, well some of it for sure. Poor confidence, shyness and not being very outgoing have done me no favors.

Socially I have a very limited social life and looks wise not enough to draw people I find physically attractive.

My view with this is to go and just be me like I was last time we met up, randomly at an event. I do think had the evening continued a bit longer things may have become interesting.

Yeah, I've been there in terms of shyness, lacking confidence etc.

When I was younger and had very little dating experience I was quite into PUA stuff but once I'd been on a few dates and had a few experiences I realised it's a rabbit hole and a red herring and frankly pretty dehumanising.

The truth is if you're shy and awkward you have to accept that and lean into it, if a girl is.attracted to you she'll find you embracing who you are a lot more attractive than if you're trying to fake some sort of alpha male image.

In the long run keeping active, building strength and socialising more will make you naturally more confident and assertive and you won't even really need to think about it to the same extent, but it takes time and you never really finish learning. The important thing is to start, and not pay too much attention to all these internet alphas throwing out buzzwords and trying to sign you up to their courses.

Edited November 20, 2023 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Yeah, I've been there in terms of shyness, lacking confidence etc.

When I was younger and had very little dating experience I was quite into PUA stuff but once I'd been on a few dates and had a few experiences I realised it's a rabbit hole and a red herring and frankly pretty dehumanising.

The truth is if you're shy and awkward you have to accept that and lean into it, if a girl is.attracted to you she'll find you embracing who you are a lot more attractive than if you're trying to fake some sort of alpha male image.

In the long run keeping active, building strength and socialising more will make you naturally more confident and assertive and you won't even really need to think about it to the same extent, but it takes time and you never really finish learning. The important thing is to start, and not pay too much attention to all these internet alphas throwing out buzzwords and trying to sign you up to their courses.

Yeah I think its a task for each day and my view is to try improve each day no matter how small that improvement may be. One of the things I have absolutely realised is at 39 y.o its pointless trying to date 25 y.o's as lovely as that may seem in theory I simply cannot connect that well, however equally people with kids have little appeal either. 

The bold I think is absolutely true, thank you. Being shy is challenging and lacking confidence does not help but I think these obstacles can be overcome to some extent with positive thinking.

What is particularly nice in this instance is she is fairly familiar with me but does not know me in much detail because well she was not single at the time and talking in groups was challenging, mystery is apparently a good quality to have. One of my very weak points is flirting which is a bit of a problem, though I did surprise myself last time by projecting confidence because flirting I knew would not work for me, this got her standing next to me with her hand on my shoulder which I thought was positive.

What I am absolutely trying to do each day is keep projecting confidence in everything I do, my major life problem is severe self doubt but I am finding the more confidence I can try project the less self doubt I have.

Basically I am going to suggest a dinner tomorrow in the frame of "well I went to this lovely Italian restaurant called xyz, it was really superb, proper authentic Italian good, have you been?" If the answer is no I will then suggest maybe giving it a try. 

Is that too subtle?

Of course she may not find me attractive in which case its just a lovely conversation.

[Gaeta]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Basically I am going to suggest a dinner tomorrow in the frame of "well I went to this lovely Italian restaurant called xyz, it was really superb, proper authentic Italian good, have you been?" If the answer is no I will then suggest maybe giving it a try. 

Is that too subtle?

Take maybe out of the wording. You want to take her out to dinner, not maybe you want to take her out, right. 

[ZA Dater]

24 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Take maybe out of the wording. You want to take her out to dinner, not maybe you want to take her out, right. 

I fall into that indecisive trap often! Thanks I will leave the "maybe" out and see! 

[Trail Blazer]

All the best with this lady moving forward.  This is the most positive/exciting thing you've ever posted.  I look forward to hearing the updates.

[ZA Dater]

Just had an informal coffee with her, which actually went very well. It was bit of business bit of life and quite a bit of chat in between. Again the conversation flowed very well, the body language was good. What also helped was going to a coffee shop I know so well the staff know me by name and vice versa so it was a space I was very comfortable in.

One of the interesting questions was "What is your philosophy about life".

My Italian restaurant idea did not go that well, however she started talking about pizza and my response was

"I know the best pizza place"

Her: "yes, where is that, tell me more"

Me: "sure I'll show you sometime soon"

Her reaction was to laugh and smile, it was right at the end of the meeting and a very nice embrace followed.

I managed to muster up as much confidence as I could, which today was challenging but I think I managed it. It can be so hard as a shy person lacking confidence to find it but I am really, really trying and it does feel good when I manage it. In short I left feeling good about myself, rather than cursing I had made a mess as I have done in the past.

She has also agreed to come to an event with me. I will send a text later saying how nice it was to see her.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

She has also agreed to come to an event with me. I will send a text later saying how nice it was to see her.

That's great it went well. Is this event a date? 

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's great it went well. Is this event a date? 

More of a social event, I made it fairly obvious she is coming as my plus 1. I think actions need to try and match words, if one does not align with the other there is terrible communication issues.

I am attempting to be smart about this and fighting a big internal fight with my own shyness and trying to project confidence,  I did not feel like I would be able to do that today but somehow I did manage to project confidence.

Possibly it helps that the conversation can cover many topics, holiday plans, have worked out she is very family centric which from my point of view is good. 

I really do enjoy her company a lot and her body language was again good.

[ZA Dater]

It would seem my sense of like of this situation has faded a little but to be upfront I am going to continue working on me

Seems really all she is actually after is my ability to expand her network hence the friendliness. The function she had had two glasses of wine, which perhaps changed the dynamic, I suspect a third glass would have changed the dynamic further.

Questions

1: I text she takes days to respond. No problem but also odd?

2: I might have enough confidence to ask her out on a date but baring on mind point 1 seems fruitless, very unsure.

3: Really enjoy her company and I so find her attractive, yes I know friend zone isn't a good idea but she likes some of the social circles I have more because of networking, worth going into friend zone or am I going to take a lot of pain

4: her recently broken up from very long term relationship, would 3 above not be a bad idea in that context? Again I am not sure?

5: I definately feel a really strong intellectual and intelligence physical attraction which is rare for me and extremely difficult to find.

There are a lot of creative places we could go for a date, to give longer standing members an idea, this is someone I'd have a glass of wine with. I do think it would lower inhibitions somewhat. 

Irrespective on all this she is affectively accompany me to a breakfast in Dec. 

I want to see positive here and break my own habits but based on this am I actually seeing anything positive?

There is an energy about her I find extremely attractive.

 

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The function she had had two glasses of wine, which perhaps changed the dynamic.

What type of event did you invite her to? If you would like to see where this goes, you could try asking her out for a one-on-one real date.  If you just want a networking buddy you could keep inviting her to events instead of dates. 

[basil67]

To be honest, I'm seeing a mixed bag:  Giving you full hugs suggests something other than professional interest.   But being tardy with returning text messages is very much a problem as it shows you're not a priority to her.  And I'm sure you realise that her networking is an essential part of getting ahead in business.

If it doesn't work out romantically, I notice you're talking about the 'friend zone'.  I would suggest you not think in that way.  What about looking at her as a friendly colleague who you get on well with.  And given that birds of a feather flock together, you never know who you may meet through her....professionally, socially or romantically   

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

  text she takes days to respond. No problem but also odd?

Don't worry about text times after a cup of coffee and one social event.  It's not odd after 2 meetings. What type of things are you texting? Ask her out again so you don't inadvertently develop a texting buddy rather than a potential dating interest. 

[Gaeta]

I think you misinterpeted the situation from the beginning.

She is not romantically interested, interested women don't wait days to reply.

You counting on alcohol as a tool to assist you in winning the girl over is really really creppy!!

Let go of the idea you can win this one over. You're wasting your time on the wrong woman.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Gaeta

[Foxhall]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

There is an energy about her I find extremely attractive.

 

Good to see your still in the game my friend,

On the highlighted basis alone its worth still pursuing,

You can opt out on the basis of the lack of texting interest but sometimes a person can give up too easily ,

Women are complicated- this phrase that came up in conversation recently - its certainly true,

Also it appears easier to find a relationship when your already in a relationship (something like a job)-  (should that be the case?)

Anyways I think your own ideas on perspective dates here are pretty good- I even like the glass of wine suggestion although that got some criticism, helping you relax will always be key 

 Id hang in there a while yet.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Don't worry about text times after a cup of coffee and one social event.  It's not odd after 2 meetings. What type of things are you texting? Ask her out again so you don't inadvertently develop a texting buddy rather than a potential dating interest. 

Oddly the text's are a mix of networking and banter. However it did take 5 days for her to respond and have coffee with me so maybe this is fairly normal.

If I am going to ask her out I think it's better to do it in person rather than by text.

 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

To be honest, I'm seeing a mixed bag:  Giving you full hugs suggests something other than professional interest.   But being tardy with returning text messages is very much a problem as it shows you're not a priority to her.  And I'm sure you realise that her networking is an essential part of getting ahead in business.

If it doesn't work out romantically, I notice you're talking about the 'friend zone'.  I would suggest you not think in that way.  What about looking at her as a friendly colleague who you get on well with.  And given that birds of a feather flock together, you never know who you may meet through her....professionally, socially or romantically   

I'd agree with most of this! Yeah look one of the things I do have is a good business network and decent access to financially successful people. I won't lie I am leveraging that to an extent here.

Thing is though I am unlikely to meet anyone via her because I think this is going to be very one sided. Also bear in mind I have known her for 3 years and yes even though she was not single she was overtly friendly but then again her job requires it.

I won't give up quite yet but I do feel less confident of this going where I would like and I feel that impending disappointment is not far away. Like a friend keeps saying which actually irritates me " just be their friend", has this ever been a viable option for anyone here? As you know it's never worked for me.