Input needed

[MsJayne]

I have a long-time friend who I'm quite close to despite living in different states. We communicate regularly and I'm aware that she suffers from serious depression, I don't know if her family or other friends are aware of that but given how negative she is I find it hard to believe they wouldn't realise what's wrong, or maybe because it's a change in her that's gradually happened over a period of about 10 years people just assume she's turning into a cranky old lady and take no real notice. She's single with no kids and mainly what she complains about is her lack of companionship and how no one visits her, and also, (I'm 99% certain), she's a genuine hypochondriac and always gives you a blow-by-blow of her last visit to the doctor. I'm certain that the reason people have begun avoiding her company in the last few years is the negativity, the complaining about people, the complaining about imaginary or highly exaggerated health issues, her resentment towards what she calls 'The Couples', (friends with partners), her dislike of children, and generally being a downer to be around unless she's the center of attention and calling the shots. She complains about all her other friends and so I'm sure I get my turn behind my back too, and that's started to make me back off a bit over the past couple of years. Anyway, for quite a long time I've been concerned about her state of mind and worrying she may be planning suicide because of things she says, little hints which I'm never sure how to take because she's not above engaging in attention-seeking behaviour, (eg: she'll post something cryptic on social media that's a dig at someone - don't ask me why, no one takes any notice but she never learns) . So, my question is, would you contact her family and tell them you were concerned even though you know she'd be furious with you for doing that, or would you request a welfare check, or would you just continue to listen but not act? It's her birthday today and I see that she's been online on Facebook this morning, there's a few birthday wishes on her page but she hasn't responded to them, and I sent her a jokey Happy Birthday message this morning but no reply to that either. 

[glows]

It is premature for me to contact someone else’s family without having a discussion first with the friend. Have you asked her why she’s so negative all the time? Tell her what you think exactly what you’ve written here. If it were my friend who thought this of me I’d want to know directly from them not in a sort of passive aggressive or misplaced way like going through my contacts or calling my family. She may feel comfortable around you and thinks this is a safe space. You don’t know whether she’s like this around others. She may just dislike other peoples’ company and choose not to hang out with them. Is she also diagnosed with depression clinically? How do you know this is true if she inflates or tends to overreact to issues in general? 

 

[Alpacalia]

Ugh. What a tough spot for you to be in. I would not contact her family specifically to express your concerns about her mental health. Unless you are in regular communication with her family members and know they would be open to hearing your concerns, I think it would do more harm than good.

I do think it would be a good idea to reach out to her and express your concerns directly. You can do it in a non-confrontational way, something like "Hey, I've noticed you seem to be struggling lately and I'm worried about you. Is everything okay?" Just know that she may not be open to hearing your concerns or may become defensive. But at least you will have expressed your worries and offered your support.

If you are truly worried that she may be in danger, you can always contact a mutual friend or someone who lives near her and ask them to check in on her. But again, only do this if you genuinely believe she may be in danger. What makes you feel she is suicidal? Has she mentioned specific plans or have you witnessed any concerning behavior?

The thing with suicide is that often times someone struggling with depression will give little hints or cries for help. Like you said. She may be seeking attention or may just feel incredibly lonely and hopeless. Or she may genuinely be thinking about ending her life. It's hard to know for sure without talking to her directly. Even if she pushes you away or becomes upset, know that she is struggling and may not have the ability to handle things in a healthy way right now.

Truthfully though, is this something you really want in your life going forward? It is very taxing to have to be her support system and it is perfectly okay to take a step back if it becomes too emotionally draining for you. MsJ , you can't fix or save her, but you can offer a listening ear and genuine concern for her well-being. Taking a step back does not mean you do not care about her.

No matter what happens, know that you have good intentions and are trying to do what you think is best for your friend. That is all anyone can do in a situation like this.

[MsJayne]

3 minutes ago, glows said:

It is premature for me to contact someone else’s family without having a discussion first with the friend. Have you asked her why she’s so negative all the time? Tell her what you think exactly what you’ve written here. If it were my friend who thought this of me I’d want to know directly from them not in a sort of passive aggressive or misplaced way like going through my contacts or calling my family. She may feel comfortable around you and thinks this is a safe space. You don’t know whether she’s like this around others. She may just dislike other peoples’ company and choose not to hang out with them. Is she also diagnosed with depression clinically? How do you know this is true if she inflates or tends to overreact to issues in general? 

 

Well, that's just it, I don't. She has been diagnosed with depression, but it was a long time ago and she's always refused to take any medication, which of course is her choice. When I spoke to her last week she told me that she hadn't got out of bed for two days "because there's no point" - this is worrying to me because despite the depression she's always remained high functioning, so this is a significant behavioural change. I was just discussing it with my partner and he said the same thing as you, I need to let her know how concerned I am and that I'm wondering if I should intervene. The whole idea of going behind her back doesn't sit well with me because of the trust factor and the undermining aspect, but at the same time I'm certain that if I asked her if she was thinking about suicide she'd be angry at me and deny. She's a very social and outgoing person around other people, less so now, but when younger she was that person who organised social events to get everyone together. I finally got a reply to my birthday message and I've asked her to call me when she gets back from shopping. She's refused an invitation to go for lunch today with old friends because they didn't invite her until this morning, and I have to agree with her that, being as this lunch was organised last week and not for her birthday, it's kind of like they held off asking until they knew it would be a rush for her to get there and so she'd be less likely to go. It's a hard one. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, MsJayne said:

she's been online on Facebook this morning, there's a few birthday wishes on her page but she hasn't responded to them, and I sent her a jokey Happy Birthday message this morning but no reply to that either. 

Sorry this is happening. It's understandable you're concerned given her dramatic behavior. But if all you know is that she's not replying to messages on FB, it's too soon to panic.

When did you send her your b'day greeting? Was it through social media? Have you tried calling her? That makes more sense than alarming her family or getting authorities involved. 

[MsJayne]

2 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

What makes you feel she is suicidal?

In reference to her family and closer friends, she'll often mention in conversation that no one would notice if she died, or that she's "invisible", that her main social contact is when she goes through the checkout at the supermarket, or that she takes a book to a cafe so that she can be around other people, or, as I mentioned in my response to Glows in ref to her birthday and a lunch invitation, it actually does appear, (too often), that some of her closer friends have abandoned her as they're getting older and so she's probably feeling that as a huge loss given that she has no kids, etc. 

[MsJayne]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. It's understandable you're concerned given her dramatic behavior. But if all you know is that she's not replying to messages on FB, it's too soon to panic.

When did you send her your b'day greeting? Was it through social media? Have you tried calling her? That makes more sense than alarming her family or getting authorities involved. 

Yes, I've heard from her, finally. I'm waiting for her to get home and then I'm going to call and just let her know someone's thinking of her. 

[Wiseman2]

Just now, MsJayne said:

Yes, I've heard from her, finally. I'm waiting for her to get home and then I'm going to call and just let her know someone's thinking of her. 

Good plan. It's very difficult to deal with hypochondriacs, morbidly negative people and people who chronically cry wolf. Unfortunately she seems manipulative.

It's nice you care and reached out and she got back to you. However she seems to have people sitting at the edge of their seats with her maudlin attitude and threats. 

[Alpacalia]

6 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

In reference to her family and closer friends, she'll often mention in conversation that no one would notice if she died, or that she's "invisible", that her main social contact is when she goes through the checkout at the supermarket, or that she takes a book to a cafe so that she can be around other people, or, as I mentioned in my response to Glows in ref to her birthday and a lunch invitation, it actually does appear, (too often), that some of her closer friends have abandoned her as they're getting older and so she's probably feeling that as a huge loss given that she has no kids, etc. 

Yeah, that really sounds like she is using that as a way to communicate that she is feeling lonely and isolated. Unfortunately, when people are depressed, they tend to internalize their feelings and convince themselves that they are not worthy of love and support. But there's also another component to it - unfortunately, a manipulative component that will often use these types of statements as a way to guilt or pressure others into giving them attention or validation.

So it's like, which one is it - is she genuinely expressing her feelings, or is she using it as a way to elicit a reaction from others?

Of course, you have to err on the side of caution and give her the benefit of the doubt, especially considering her history with depression. But it's also important for you to take care of your own well-being and not let her use these statements to manipulate you or others. If she is not open to seeking help or making positive changes in her life, there is only so much you can do to support her and you cannot allow yourself to be boxed into a position where you feel responsible for "saving" her from her loneliness.

[MsJayne]

1 minute ago, Alpacalia said:

unfortunately, a manipulative component that will often use these types of statements as a way to guilt or pressure others into giving them attention or validation.

So it's like, which one is it - is she genuinely expressing her feelings, or is she using it as a way to elicit a reaction from others?

Of course, you have to err on the side of caution and give her the benefit of the doubt, especially considering her history with depression. But it's also important for you to take care of your own well-being and not let her use these statements to manipulate you or others. If she is not open to seeking help or making positive changes in her life, there is only so much you can do to support her and you cannot allow yourself to be boxed into a position where you feel responsible for "saving" her from her loneliness.

Spot on! This is exactly where I'm at and why I'm asking for input, I swing back and forth between rolling my eyes at the endless complaining and being genuinely worried that she's going to harm herself. 

[mark clemson]

I would suggest therapy again, but if she's the type who simply "doesn't believe in therapy" it might not do much. If she feels like her current depression is worse than usual or similar, you might mention that sometimes (certainly not always) people can start to feel better pretty quickly. In her case it sounds like feeling better would entail returning to her normal level of depression.

I would note that it's the holidays and for those who feel lonely this time of year can bring additional stress, so that may be part of what's going on.

[MsJayne]

20 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

However she seems to have people sitting at the edge of their seats with her maudlin attitude and threats. 

This is my partner's view, he's of the opinion that I'm the only friend left who's "too nice", (translation - he means " too gullible"), to turn my back just in case she's not just being dramatic and manipulative. I think the thing bothering me is that over the years I've known three people who committed suicide, and while all three of them displayed depressive symptoms to some degree, there was no behavioural indication of their true state of mind because they all remained high-functioning, but they all did one thing that I now consider to be a big indicator of high risk, and that was that leading up to the event they all made comments which were a big clue to their intent but were made in such a way that you couldn't really confront it without sounding hysterical. Example, during a conversation among four people about a mutual friend whose wife had just left him and whose new business venture was failing, the talk turned to the high incidence of male suicide in Australia. At one point, in response to someone saying anyone who was suicidal should know they need to get help, P said, "Once you've made the decision you don't want help." Whether it was what he said or the way he said it, it stuck in my mind, and eight months later P took his own life. So perhaps now I'm on full alert and over-reacting. 

[MsJayne]

10 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I would note that it's the holidays and for those who feel lonely this time of year can bring additional stress, so that may be part of what's going on.

Absolutely. This is also part of why I'm worried, she's having a disappointing birthday and it will be likely be followed by a disappointing Christmas. 

[Alpacalia]

There is a moral component to this in that it is our duty as fellow human beings to help someone in need, especially if their life is in danger.  I was attending my moral philosophy class the other day and there is this new thing that I never heard of that kinda falls under a good Samaritan law but basically, if someone OD's, they now provide kits where you can as a bystander, inject the solution into their nose and possibly save their life.  

At first the whole concept angered me because in my mind, I thought that if the person lead their life to make a bad decision like ingesting drugs, or any means of future harm, then let them be. I thought that to intervene would be, in a way, virtue signaling, or that why is it our responsibility as bystanders and that your actions should be merely a decision between you and God, and not the public.

However, for someone to protect oneself and oneself only is very shallow, and selfish. It's like watching someone drowning but not helping them while being an Olympic swimmer. But back to the moral philosophy, you are right to intervene. If you can prevent someone from committing suicide without putting yourself in danger, then you should intervene. However, you shouldn't endanger your own life in the process.

It made me consider an analogy to the current "active shooter" epidemic and the ways in which we have been taught to respond in those situations -to run, hide, fight. In a similar fashion, if you witness someone contemplating suicide, you should first try to verbally talk to them and see if you can calmly and non-judgmentally convince them to get help. If that is not possible, you can try to physically intervene, but only if you feel comfortable and safe doing so. 

Your friend even though she cries out for attention, is obviously looking for help and attention. Albeit, this may not be the appropriate way to seek it. Can you imagine what she must be going through to have to fake, what is an absolute sense, to apathetically gig her way through the anguish and uncertainty (if they manifest) of depression, physical pain etc.

I don't think it's a question of you being gullible or not, but rather a question of whether or not you are responding appropriately. You can say to her, that there is only so much you can do for at lot of time - sooner, or later she must take the problem by the horns and deal with it herself; it's obvious that it is not something she wants to do - so whats left?

[Wiseman2]

42 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

This is my partner's view, he's of the opinion that I'm the only friend left who's "too nice", (translation - he means " too gullible"), to turn my back just in case she's not just being dramatic and manipulative. I think the thing bothering me is that over the years I've known three people who committed suicide.  

Sorry this happened.  It seems like you may be experiencing survivor guilt. Please see if this helps:

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/suicide-family-and-friends

[MsJayne]

4 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

; it's obvious that it is not something she wants to do - so whats left?

Yes, this is a question I've been pondering for quite a while in relation to her situation. All I can do as a friend is give support but only as much as a listening ear can provide, I can't force her to take any action. I had a long chat with her this afternoon and asked her if she was OK, explained that I was quite worried about her. She assured me I've got nothing to worry about, so that's a bit of relief. I'm hoping just the fact that someone's listening might make her realise that people do care.