Dilemma. the dilemma of my entire life.

[Prudence Jane]

Hello folks. I have a successful career for someone my age (I'm a woman in my early thirties), and it makes all friendships and relationships with other people complicated. I'm also neurodivergent.

I feel that I have to choose between my professional aspirations .... and having friends who won't become envious or men who won't be "intimidated". I love being with people, I love true, deep and meaningful connections with others. I don't care about what they're doing in their lives as a career. I just want to have friends and a partner that won't constantly compare their lives to mine, even if I never talk about my professional life outside of work context. 

I thought it would get better when I was younger, because even before I had a my career, it was also an issue when I was in high school and elementary school and I don't know why. But I'm in my early thirties now, and I just don't trust anyone anymore and feel I can't rely on anyone. I was so open and trusting before, but now I feel like trusting others is literally dangerous for me. 

If something bad happens to me, I prefer saying to myself that I'll have to stand up for myself than trusting someone to support me, because I've been extremely betrayed and dissapointed, especially recently.

Thank you for reading me.

[basil67]

9 hours ago, Prudence Jane said:

feel that I have to choose between my professional aspirations .... and having friends who won't become envious or men who won't be "intimidated".

Hi Prudence Jane, welcome to LS.  It's an interesting question you've posed and I think it's worth a bit of unpacking.   For a bit of background, I'm female, mid 50's, reasonably intelligent but dropped out of school when I was 16 and had jobs rather than a career.  I'm now a full time carer for our neurodivergent adult son.

I'm going to start with men being "intimidated" first.  You're certainly not the first smart woman to be bothered with feeling like men are intimidated by them, but I honestly don't think it's intimidation.  Rather, I believe it's a lack of connection due to mismatched intellect. 

I believe that connection on a cerebral level is important.  My husband is somewhat smarter than me, but we are close enough to be on the same wavelength.  However, I wouldn't want to be with someone who had a significantly higher intellect - not because I'd be intimidated - but because I couldn't keep up, or I don't know what they are talking about.  I had an acquaintance who's a very smart man, but half the time I had no idea what he's talking about and so we really didn't connect.  Likewise, I remember when our daughter was briefly dating a guy who's intellect wasn't as high as hers.  She'd start talking about her degree...he'd look like a deer in the headlights and say in response "oh, you're so smart".   How could this have gone anywhere?   She's now got a very smart boyfriend who is really interested in her career and can hold his own.

My message here is to avoid men who can't keep up with you.  You'll both disconnect because of the gap.  His head will spin trying to keep up and you'll get bored with him.

With regards to your friends becoming envious, I'm wondering why you think they envy you.  What kind of things do they say?   How does it come about that they stop being your friends?  

I can't help but wonder if you're misreading the problem.  I mean, I look at the academic career of one of my best friends and I'm fascinated by her field and it's endlessly interesting hearing about her research.   But I also look at the pitfalls of her job and I really don't envy her at all.  She is waaay smarter than I am, but most of the time when we talk, it's mostly about ordinary life and this is something we can connect over...husbands, kids, and the different things going on in our lives.  Same with her other friends - but the one thing they all have in common is that they are either alternative and/or neurodivergent.  And I'm a bit weird too, so it works.  Funnily enough, it's through these neurodivergent friends that I've found so many others who are degrees of weird, and it's so much easier when you're all a bit weird together.

When I look at my neurotypical women friends/acquaintances (who I've known for 25 years or so) envy is not something I see happening anyone around them.  Everyone is really pleased when our friends get a great new job or promotion.   

And as it's been happening with you even when you were at school, I think it's more about finding people who you really vibe with.  Given how much you like people, it must be so frustratingly lonely for you.  Sending hugs to you

[d0nnivain]

Get new friends.  Make friends with colleagues & other similarly situated people.  When you surround yourself with uplifting people you won't be dragged down by pettiness.  

[Prudence Jane]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

Hi Prudence Jane, welcome to LS.  It's an interesting question you've posed and I think it's worth a bit of unpacking.   For a bit of background, I'm female, mid 50's, reasonably intelligent but dropped out of school when I was 16 and had jobs rather than a career.  I'm now a full time carer for our neurodivergent adult son.

I'm going to start with men being "intimidated" first.  You're certainly not the first smart woman to be bothered with feeling like men are intimidated by them, but I honestly don't think it's intimidation.  Rather, I believe it's a lack of connection due to mismatched intellect. 

I believe that connection on a cerebral level is important.  My husband is somewhat smarter than me, but we are close enough to be on the same wavelength.  However, I wouldn't want to be with someone who had a significantly higher intellect - not because I'd be intimidated - but because I couldn't keep up, or I don't know what they are talking about.  I had an acquaintance who's a very smart man, but half the time I had no idea what he's talking about and so we really didn't connect.  Likewise, I remember when our daughter was briefly dating a guy who's intellect wasn't as high as hers.  She'd start talking about her degree...he'd look like a deer in the headlights and say in response "oh, you're so smart".   How could this have gone anywhere?   She's now got a very smart boyfriend who is really interested in her career and can hold his own.

My message here is to avoid men who can't keep up with you.  You'll both disconnect because of the gap.  His head will spin trying to keep up and you'll get bored with him.

With regards to your friends becoming envious, I'm wondering why you think they envy you.  What kind of things do they say?   How does it come about that they stop being your friends?  

I can't help but wonder if you're misreading the problem.  I mean, I look at the academic career of one of my best friends and I'm fascinated by her field and it's endlessly interesting hearing about her research.   But I also look at the pitfalls of her job and I really don't envy her at all.  She is waaay smarter than I am, but most of the time when we talk, it's mostly about ordinary life and this is something we can connect over...husbands, kids, and the different things going on in our lives.  Same with her other friends - but the one thing they all have in common is that they are either alternative and/or neurodivergent.  And I'm a bit weird too, so it works.  Funnily enough, it's through these neurodivergent friends that I've found so many others who are degrees of weird, and it's so much easier when you're all a bit weird together.

When I look at my neurotypical women friends/acquaintances (who I've known for 25 years or so) envy is not something I see happening anyone around them.  Everyone is really pleased when our friends get a great new job or promotion.   

And as it's been happening with you even when you were at school, I think it's more about finding people who you really vibe with.  Given how much you like people, it must be so frustratingly lonely for you.  Sending hugs to you

 

Thank you for your reply. I get what you're saying. To be honest, I don't care about if people don't know the exact same things as me. Being an academic is quite specific, it makes me an expect in a niche, and I don't expect people who aren't in that field to know everything about that niche. I just want someone who's on the same level emotionally speaking if you get what I mean. 

I also don't like that word, but technically, I am "gifted" and it shows because I get asked a lot if I am gifted by all sorts of people. It's the question I am being asked the most, even though I never talk about the fact that I am neurodivergeant. 

I'm also never envious of the people around me. I'm happy for people when they succeed, I'm even the one who often pushes others to pursue their dreams when they hesitate to do so. But I was naive, I've often been surrounded by petty and jealous people without ever thinking that they are envious, and it always comes out when I get a new professional opportunity. It truly sucks to be honest. 

[Prudence Jane]

56 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Get new friends.  Make friends with colleagues & other similarly situated people.  When you surround yourself with uplifting people you won't be dragged down by pettiness.  

I can't and don't want to be friends with colleagues and people in the same fields anymore to be honest. That's where the envious people are. They automatically develop some sort of competition vibe when I get a new opportunity and it truuuuuuly sucks. 

Thanks for you reply. 

[d0nnivain]

Then look outside that circle to at least people who have an equal measure of success.  

[Alpacalia]

Why do you think everyone is so envious of you? Really, you're making it out to be more extreme than it probably is. I can understand 1, maybe a couple of people, but your worldview almost seems to be "literally everyone who's not as successful as me sees me as competition."

Maybe that's your perception of it, but....have you honestly had a discussion on the topic with the people you think are envious of you? Maybe you have an inflated sense of importance because of how successful you are. You mention that people ask you if you're gifted often (though whether or not it matters if they do varies a lot).

It seems like you're making an assumption that people must be envious, so what they do or say must reflect that, which means you mustn't be able to trust them.

I think that when someone feels that EVERYONE is envious of them,  it could also be because the person THEMSELVES is a tad envious. I think majority, if not all, of people have a friend/acquaintance that's "better" than they are. An attractive friend, a friend who's more athletic, a friend who's more successful, a friend who's got a better family. People don't view everyone that's "above them" as competition, as a general rule.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Prudence Jane]

3 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Why do you think everyone is so envious of you? Really, you're making it out to be more extreme than it probably is. I can understand 1, maybe a couple of people, but your worldview almost seems to be "literally everyone who's not as successful as me sees me as competition."

Maybe that's your perception of it, but....have you honestly had a discussion on the topic with the people you think are envious of you? Maybe you have an inflated sense of importance because of how successful you are. You mention that people ask you if you're gifted often (though whether or not it matters if they do varies a lot).

It seems like you're making an assumption that people must be envious, so what they do or say must reflect that, which means you mustn't be able to trust them.

I think that when someone feels that EVERYONE is envious of them,  it could also be because the person THEMSELVES is a tad envious. I think majority, if not all, of people have a friend/acquaintance that's "better" than they are. An attractive friend, a friend who's more athletic, a friend who's more successful, a friend who's got a better family. People don't view everyone that's "above them" as competition, as a general rule.

 I say that because that's genuinely what I am constantly being told by others and yes, I've had discussions with these people about that. It's not a "perception". 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Prudence Jane

[NuevoYorko]

Maybe you need to simply expand your circle of acquaintances.   

I'm sure you can look around in your academic world and see others who are as accomplished as you are, perhaps in different fields, but who have fulfilling social and familial lives.  Their success has not hindered it.

I do question your opinion that everyone is envious of you and that's why you're lonely.   I suspect that there's some work you could be doing within yourself that would help with this.

[Alpacalia]

3 hours ago, Prudence Jane said:

 I say that because that's genuinely what I am constantly being told by others and yes, I've had discussions with these people about that. It's not a "perception". 

Call me skeptical but it seems odd that everyone tells you how envious they are of you. But, if it's indeed true, maybe take your creative gifts and turn it into something that can positively impact the world. Use your talents to create art, music, or writing that can inspire and bring joy to others. You can also volunteer your time and skills to help those in need, and use your platform and influence to raise awareness for important causes.

[Prudence Jane]

32 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Call me skeptical but it seems odd that everyone tells you how envious they are of you. But, if it's indeed true, maybe take your creative gifts and turn it into something that can positively impact the world. Use your talents to create art, music, or writing that can inspire and bring joy to others. You can also volunteer your time and skills to help those in need, and use your platform and influence to raise awareness for important causes.

Why do you assume that it's not what I am already doing? 

[Alpacalia]

26 minutes ago, Prudence Jane said:

Why do you assume that it's not what I am already doing? 

My apologies. You're right. I shouldn't have assumed. What advice are you seeking here? How can we help?

[MsJayne]

Unless you're famous for doing something highly worthy and you're fabulously wealthy I'm wondering why all these people would be envious of you. Anyone I've ever encountered who has this mindset, that anyone who reacts negatively to them is just jealous, has usually been full of themselves and that is in fact why others dislike them, nothing to do with how much money they earn or how many accolades they've won. Professional success tends to bring admiration and respect, not envy, so perhaps the problem lies with you. It makes no difference whether you brag about your success or not, if you have a superior attitude it comes across in all interactions with others regardless of the topic. I'm not saying you wouldn't get the occasional person who envies you, but to imply almost everyone you interact with is jealous of you is something you might be best discussing with a mental health professional. As @Alpacalia mentioned, often people who believe others to be jealous of them are in fact the jealous party and they project their feelings on to others. 

[Els]

Many people have their careers peak in their 30s, and I haven't exactly seen them friendless or universally envied. I think, as a generation (I'm a millennial as well), we've generally moved beyond envying people solely for their material wealth. Statistically, the majority of people our age value experiences and happiness over money. So yes, unfortunately if you are experiencing trouble making friendships with peers, it may be worth doing some self reflection, perhaps with the help of a therapist.

With regard to hetero romantic relationships, though, it's certainly true that some men still hold on to the archaic notion that they must be the breadwinner in the relationship, even in our generation. However, some is not all. Just view it as a filter - if they don't want a relationship with you because of this, why would you want them?

[basil67]

5 hours ago, Prudence Jane said:

Why do you assume that it's not what I am already doing? 

Normally I would not comment on a response such as this, but as the subject relates to why you have trouble connecting with others, I will point it out.

When someone who is struggling to understand the problem but is still trying to help you responds with an erroneous assumption, a response what you wrote is going to get up the nose of any reasonable person.  Instead, aim for a response which both corrects the assumption and also promotes further engagement. 

Something along the lines of "Yes, I've been doing that.  The results have been X and Y and I'm not sure if it's helpful"

Be careful of the snark. It can drive others away in both your social and professional life.  

[Alpacalia]

40 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Be careful of the snark. It can drive others away in both your social and professional life.  

I sensed the snark. I just chose not to indulge it. 😉

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Alpacalia said:

I sensed the snark. I just chose not to indulge it. 😉

It was hard to miss!  

 

[S2B]

6 hours ago, Prudence Jane said:

Why do you assume that it's not what I am already doing? 

Work more on the way you participate.

it may be more aggressive and abrasive than you are aware.

[S2B]

Not everyone is admiring or jealous of others successes. 
for me it’s a non issue. I don’t think much of others being “successful”. Even really famous people. 
 

have you ever done counseling long term?

[NuevoYorko]

The whole idea of a majority of people in their 30s being jealous of another person's success is hard to wrap my mind around.   My daughter is in her 30s and is impressively accomplished, and so are most of the people in her friend group and her partner.  The ones who are not so impressive insofar as their education or jobs go are not jealous of the others because they are also living their lives the way they choose.  

 

[S2B]

What really is your dilemma? I can’t tell what it may be.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, S2B said:

What really is your dilemma? I can’t tell what it may be.

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