Ideas

[SpaceJam]

Hello everyone. I am in a funk. My wife and I are in our early 40’s we have 2 kids in their mid to late teens. Both employed with good jobs. The problem is intimacy. With my wife it does not exist. She will not kiss in front of the kid. Refuses any PDA. Haven’t had sex in 3 years. Haven’t kissed in 3 years. Nothing. 
Some events have taken place over the past years.. trying to make sense of it all. We lost a son in late 2000’s had another a year later. We were sexually active from 2011-2017. We would do fun things together. I felt reassured by things she would do such as…wear a particular outfit that turned me on, often. Deep long kisses in front of anyone once in a while. Would come to bed nude and lay with me. She used to jump into bed with me before her shower. She surprised me a couple times in the shower. She would surprise me outside in her birthday suit while I was working on something. Life was so good, so inspiring!

Now it’s like none of that exists.

 I was told, in the first part of September 2023 she was talking to another guy over the summer and she cut him off because he was getting inappropriate. She said he and his wife are getting counseling. I was asked during the conversation if I thought I needed counseling. I was like what? She was the one talking with someone outside the marriage and I need counseling. I said no you are the one that needs help. I am not reaching out to another woman with questions. What you 2 did was wrong. She agreed.

Time goes by and she is apologetic and tries very small things to “help” me. Very small things like buy a certain coffee I always drink. Then in the early part of November 23 I get a call at work we need to talk. I’m thinking she got it out, we are working on things, now we need to talk? She starts saying it’s hard, we need more money, I need to work more and if we had more money it would be easier to just live in separate homes! I can’t believe what I’m hearing. I know however if I smash this already fragile situation 2 other people ( my kids) could get damaged. We talk it out nd agree to give it time.

Late part of November 23. I stumble through my phone bill she has been calling a guy since the beginning of July! A different guy! 90+ hours of phone conversation! I lose it and walk away. She apologizes over and over. She realized she messed up again. I go for a 4 hour walk. I am ready to leave. If it weren’t for the 2 kids I would have walked. I said she needs professional help. She agrees. I told her I should tell his wife and your mother about this crap and ask them if it’s right. She says please do not. I didn’t. I did confront this other man about 90+ hours of phone conversations with another man’s wife is wrong. He agreed. She says she would do anything. She has done nothing. In my position I am not a master over someone. I feel out of place telling people to do things. I gave her ideas of things to work on. I am still waiting. My frustration is being the sole person dealing with this crazy crap. If I could switch bodies with her to strengthen the situation I would do it without thought. The things she could do are free, personal and wouldn’t take much time up. I gave her a frickin list. We still have not been intimate. 3 years later.

i am no saint myself. I can be lazy at times. Closed minded. Stubborn. Afraid to try something new. Demanding at times. I get disappointed that she will not wear a particular outfit that I love that she wears. I have my problems to.

[Wiseman2]

12 minutes ago, SpaceJam said:

. My wife and I are in our early 40’s we have 2 kids in their mid to late teens. . Haven’t had sex in 3 years.  We lost a son in late 2000’s had another a year later. We were sexually active from 2011-2017. 

Sorry this is happening. How long have you been married? Condolences on the loss of your child . Have you two been through bereavement counseling? 

Do you both work and contribute roughly equally to household responsibilities and finances? 

Please suggest marriage counseling. You can also see your own therapist privately and confidentiality to unpack and sort out what's going on and for ongoing support especially in the event of divorce. 

Her statement about separate homes is absurd. Please also privately and confidentiality consult an attorney for information support and advice in your situation. Do not tell her and do not threaten divorce. Just inform yourself. 

[MsJayne]

Sounds like she may be feeling taken for granted, evidence being that she seeks attention from other men. She suggested you're the one who needs counselling, so what's going on there? What's taken place between the two of you that she would suggest that? 

[Els]

Why are you so against counselling? Most people would have agreed to see a counsellor together long before things had reached this stage. At this stage I'm not sure there's much left to salvage unfortunately.

I'm also really perplexed that you thought handing her a "list of things she should do" was a good solution to your incredibly broken marriage. If you hadn't been so stubborn about going to a counsellor, you would have learned exactly why that was a terrible "solution".

And in addition to that, you mentioned disappointment over her not wearing a "particular outfit" twice... in a thread that involves discussion about the death of two children and a marriage that clearly has issues going so deep in it that I'm surprised it hasn't completely collapsed yet. That's just... wow. What exactly are your priorities here? If all you care about is having a person who will do a list of things that you hand them to do (presumably in bed) and wear a "particular outfit" that you want them to wear, you need an escort, not a wife.

Edited January 25 by Els

[Els]

43 minutes ago, SpaceJam said:

I told her I should tell his wife and your mother about this crap and ask them if it’s right.

Huh?? You won't talk to a marriage counsellor about your marriage, but you want to talk to HER MOTHER about your marriage? What am I even reading here???

[SpaceJam]

I’ve spoken to a Methodist Pastor, a Catholic Priest, a sex therapist, a grievance counselor and a marriage counselor. No she did not come. She couldn’t find the time.
I wanted to speak to anyone that would listen to see if I was messed up.

For a list. She wanted a list. I provided. 
 

Married 18 years. Together for 28. We both contribute financially to household and share all tasks. 

But to be clear it is entirely ok Els if your spouse takes there entire lunch break, sneaks into the garage to talk to someone? 90+ hours in 4 months? Then when you confront the both of them they both completely break down. If nothing is going on why are we backpedaling and afraid of anything. And yes her mom. Her mom would tell her how ridiculous this is and she doesn’t even like me.
 

Should a person feel good or bad if on their birthday they receive absolutely nothing from their spouse but see on the phone bill they spent 2 hours talking with this other person. 

[SpaceJam]

1 hour ago, MsJayne said:

Sounds like she may be feeling taken for granted, evidence being that she seeks attention from other men. She suggested you're the one who needs counselling, so what's going on there? What's taken place between the two of you that she would suggest that? 

Possible. I asked her why? She didn’t know.

[basil67]

11 minutes ago, SpaceJam said:

I’ve spoken to a Methodist Pastor, a Catholic Priest, a sex therapist, a grievance counselor and a marriage counselor. No she did not come. She couldn’t find the time.
I wanted to speak to anyone that would listen to see if I was messed up.

In your first post, why didn't you lead with this instead of just telling us you said "no" when your wife asked if you wanted counselling?   And why would she ask if you want counselling when you've been doing all of this?  

Interesting that she couldn't find the time.  This tells me she's checked out, and her actions with other men back up my belief.  I'd say it's time to call your marriage quits.

 

[MsJayne]

1 hour ago, SpaceJam said:

Her mom would tell her how ridiculous this is and she doesn’t even like me.

Why doesn't mother-in-law like you? What's her beef? 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, SpaceJam said:

I’ve spoken to a Methodist Pastor, a Catholic Priest, a sex therapist, a grievance counselor and a marriage counselor. No she did not come. 

Please speak to your own licensed qualified therapist privately and confidentiality for ongoing support.

It's seems a lot of these people are lateral moves and marriage therapy doesn't exist for one person. Telling on your wife to her mother is also pointless and will only complicate things. Please consider effective and constructive alternatives. 

Please also consult an attorney for information support and advice on your situation. Please speak to the attorney privately and confidentiality and do not tell your wife and never threaten divorce and. It's absurd she's talking about separate homes. 

[Alpacalia]

So sorry about your son. Have to agree that your wife has checked out of your marriage. What ideas are you looking for? You two need some serious workshops and a intensive to connect again. 

It's not all about sex. Its about nurturing each other and building a relationship. She is not doing her part. Stop pointing out where she is not measuring up.

[Will am I]

What seems to have happened here is her building up resentment and unhappiness over the course of possibly many years.

These processes can go like slow, subtle, hardly noticeable steps until at one point it’s suddenly evident that she is no longer in the relationship. Somewhere in 2023 things reached that point.

She crossed a line confiding with a male friend. You can’t say from the phone bill if they’re having a sexual affair or more like an intimate friendship. But either way, 90 hours of phone calls is definitely crossing the boundaries of marriage. It’s her breaking away from the marital unit and starting a new bond where she’s finding support away from you.

The talk about two homes makes it clear how far she has progressed on her mental track of preparing to leave the marriage.

The lack of will to join talks with a counselor is telling of her motivation.

 

Essentially this is where you are right now: she’s gone.

If you believe your marriage is still worth a fight, sit down with your wife and talk. Ask her is she wants to stay with you, and if so under which conditions. If there is anything you can do to make her want to be with you.
 

If she really wants out, she’ll struggle for answers. 

[SurfCity]

14 hours ago, SpaceJam said:

I was asked during the conversation if I thought I needed counseling. I was like what? She was the one talking with someone outside the marriage and I need counseling. I said no you are the one that needs help. I am not reaching out to another woman with questions. What you 2 did was wrong. She agreed.

Why don't you ask her what she meant or why she said that. If you want to save your marriage you have to understand her perspective. You need to know what her thoughts are because right now you have no clue what's going on with her. 

90 hours in 4 months. Where were you during those hours? Do you travel for work? Do you get home from work and spend the rest of the night on video games?  Most women aren't willing to have sex if sex is their only interaction with their spouse.

[Els]

22 hours ago, SpaceJam said:

I’ve spoken to a Methodist Pastor, a Catholic Priest, a sex therapist, a grievance counselor and a marriage counselor. No she did not come. She couldn’t find the time.
I wanted to speak to anyone that would listen to see if I was messed up.

I don't get it. In your post you said:

Quote

She said he and his wife are getting counseling. I was asked during the conversation if I thought I needed counseling. I was like what? She was the one talking with someone outside the marriage and I need counseling. I said no you are the one that needs help

So why didn't you just say "yes, can we go to a marriage counselor together?" when she offered? Instead of "no"?

Quote

But to be clear it is entirely ok Els if your spouse takes there entire lunch break, sneaks into the garage to talk to someone? 90+ hours in 4 months? Then when you confront the both of them they both completely break down. If nothing is going on why are we backpedaling and afraid of anything. And yes her mom. Her mom would tell her how ridiculous this is and she doesn’t even like me.

Nobody here thinks that your marriage is "okay". My point is that you are taking the absolute worst steps in dealing with your broken-down marriage. When these things are happening, there's obviously a major disconnect with your spouse, to put things mildly. I mean, forget the phone calls with this dude and the lack of sex - your wife wants to live in separate homes, for chrissakes. That is literally the definition of separation. And your solution for that is... to threaten to tell her mom?? Really???

The point is, also, that obviously your wife has lost all attraction towards you and all interest in intimacy with you. This is never resolved by focusing more on your own needs (i.e. your list). Even if she did those things on your list to placate you, it's not going to fix the root issue. If there's any hope of saving your relationship, it has to start with communicating and listening to your wife - listening to what she needs to feel intimate with you, asking her what you can do to fix things.

What advice did the marriage counselor give you as to how to actually address issues with your wife? Also, were they a secular and licensed marriage counselor? I respect that you're religious, but you already have a pastor and priest for religious advice. You need a licensed and professional MC, not a church MC.

[LuckyM]

Talking on the phone and having sex are 2 different things  what is she doing exactly?

Maybe you are jumping to conclusions. Obviously it looks bad   very if not for kids

But maybe she is just talking.   I talk to a married woman on phone for years and absolutely

Nothing is happening. No touching.. We just enjoy talking and her husband knows me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mark clemson]

90+ hour and keeping it secret though. That's probably "bonding" of some kind, even if no physical contact was involved.

OP, she's getting something she (feels she) needs out of these extended interests that she's not getting in the marriage. A feeling of "emotional connection" or whatever it might be. And from what you write it appears she's putting basically zero effort into the marriage - no birthday present and suggesting you work harder so you can both have separate homes??

The only time she seems to want to maintain the marriage is when she's "caught".

People who are attractive and good at finding partners tend to want relationships on their own terms. In a normal situation, that comes with reasonable compromises so that both partners can feel content. In your wife's case the "terms" seem to be (or seem to have become) you helping support her and your children while she puts no effort or interest into the marriage and seeks romantic interests elsewhere (possibly non-physically, possibly not) until found out. Then rinse and repeat. She may have truly given up and simply be fishing for her next husband.

Do with that assessment whatever you think makes sense. While some folks might accept those "terms" I think it's safe to say they wouldn't be acceptable to the vast majority of people. However, staying married is ultimately a choice, and bad marriages sometimes continue if neither partners wants to leave.

People change over time. Perhaps there is a way to bring your wife's mindset "back" to something more reasonable/acceptable, perhaps not.