How to get past the verbal abuse from 20 years ago

[seamusharper]

Hello, new guy here.

A quick backstory. I grew up with an abusive older sister, who, since I was at least 13, would call me ugly and would tell me that no girls would ever like me. Amongst the never ending screaming and yelling, this was a nearly daily experience. Regrettably, I lived at home for college so this was my life for at least a decade.

High school and college were the worst years of my life and as you can imagine, I had no sense of self-worth or self-esteem. I became desperate for women's attention and validation, except no matter what I did, I never got it. I never really learned how to talk to women and I was terrified of rejection from them since rejection would mean that what my sister told me must be true.

I suffered with women all throughout my 20s. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 27 and I've only dated women I've found unattractive.

Fast forward to now. I'm 34 years old, I take meticulous care of my health and physique, I speak 3 languages (working on my 4th), I have multiple degrees in biomedicine and finance, I make good money, own a big house, dress meticulously well, I have a multitude of hobbies that I fill my life with (I ride horses competitively, snowboard in the winter, hunt a few times a year, play guitar), I'm well travelled, well read, and I've been doing improv for a number of years now. I am lucky to be alive since many years of my life were lived in a never-ending misery that just seemed to be on repeat every day. I am extremely lucky I managed to avoid drinking, drugs, video games, etc. My addiction was working out which arguably saved my life.

I painfully learned how to date and interact with women but my issue is that I can't attract the women I find attractive. I have no problem dating women I don't find attractive but as soon as I see a woman that I deem attractive, I seize up, I get nervous and awkward, and I go back to being that 13 year old who was told he was ugly. 

Before you all say that I must be pursuing 20-year old models, believe me I am not. People always assume that when they see me but that is not what I am after and in many instances, the women that I do find attractive actually find me attractive, but I completely botch the opportunity to get with them since I either don't know what to say or I open my mouth and come across as weird (I just got embarrassingly rejected by an attractive blonde last week who had actually inquired about me).

I'm here because I am seeking suggestions on how to get past this. I am scared I never will and that I'll have to either be alone for the rest of my life or settle for someone I don't find attractive which is miserable (I've already tried it). 

Edited February 17 by seamusharper

[Wiseman2]

Sorry this is happening. What happened with being rejected by an attractive blonde last week who had actually inquired about you?

What was the context and by "rejection", do you mean she said no to asking for her number or asking her out?

[MsJayne]

Hmm, a vicious sibling can leave lifelong scars, particularly if no adults intervened and put the little bully back in their box. It's very likely your sister was jealous of your abilities and intelligence, you sound like a high achiever and that grinds a lot of peoples gears because it makes them feel inferior. Perhaps the scars left by this abuse could be unpacked with a counsellor, it's not a small thing to be subjected to years of being denigrated in full view of other family members while in the supposed safety of your family home.  For your problem with women, confidence is definitely the key. If you take the ugliest guy in the room and give him a huge ego and a sense of humour, women will flock to him. Likewise a guy can look like Brad Pitt, but if he's a crashing bore then it's likely the woman he ends up with will be good-looking but have the intelligence of a mollusc. You need your self-perception rearranged so that you can acknowledge your value and worth as a person, and confidence would hopefully grow from that. Again, a good counsellor, or psychologist, could help work on the damage to your self-esteem during your formative years and coach you in overcoming social anxiety. Out of interest, what's your relationship with your sister like now? 

 

[Lotsgoingon]

So sorry this happened to you when growing up.

A good therapist can help you resolve this in a few sessions. What you want is someone who does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and who then leads you through exposure therapy. And you’d take on the vicious and uncalled for and sadistic, nasty, toxic attacks by your sister. And you’d also consider what happened that your parents allowed these nasty attacks on you. Is your sister a psychopath? Was the family just dysfunctional? Were your parents preoccupied with other troubles? 

You are judging your nervousness AND your looks more harshly than any woman would. In fact, we cannot really tell how nervous other people are. I have a background in public speaking and it's the oddest thing. A speaker will feel terrified, and then you ask the audience how nervous they think the speaker is. The speaker would have been 7 on a scale of 1 to 10. The audience will think 2 or 3. 

It's what you're telling yourself (that lingering voice from your sister) when you're nervous and what you're telling yourself afterwards that creates the big problem. You never learned (not your fault) how defend yourself against the poisons your sister shot your way. Those poisons have long-term effects we don't carefully learn how to expunge them from our system. 

In therapy you would write down your thoughts during and after approaching a hot woman. You would then challenge the negative thoughts. It's really hard to do this alone, because your system is primed to panic in these situations, and you can't even accurately judge what's going on. That's where you need the help of a therapist. In those so-called botched encounters that you describe, I would bet that many times the woman is reacting not badly to you at all. It's just that you're in panic mode and your thoughts become negative and distorted—and as a result, you get flustered and demoralized. It's your sister's voice that is causing havoc, not necessarily the nervousness.

And with the therapist you would take on those messages you got from your sister, and you would learn how to reject those thoughts, not just superficially, but deep deep down within. And you would see that clearly your sister had a nasty side of her personality, like a sadist or psychopath. And you’d consider that maybe you were failed by your parents as well who didn’t disrupt your sister’s toxic attacks on you. How the heck did they miss those nasty attacks on you?! They should have stopped her.

The truth is very few of us are all that great looking. But we don’t grow up with sadistic, toxic sisters who spew poison our way. Healing from your sister's words will take a little longer than being OK with being nervous. But dude, it's time. Hop on it!

 

 

Edited February 18 by Lotsgoingon

[seamusharper]

@Wiseman2 She and her friend were passing by on horseback at the barn we all ride at. I stopped her, introduced myself, and then asked her out to dinner (way too forward). She was nice and said that she didn't know me but she'd think about it, although her body language and tonality very clearly indicated a "no thank you". I said "no worries, I understand". I should have just walked away after that but I lingered a bit too long and then right before they left, her friend made it a point to say, "I'm setting her up with a boytoy so we're going to see how it works out with him first." Honestly, it was the friend's comment that bothered me. Clearly something about my approach made the friend feel like it was necessary to reinforce the rejection which I've never had happened.

@MsJayne It's definitely a self-confidence/self-esteem/self-perception issue. In short, I have none when it comes to women I find attractive. I haven't spoken to my sister in many years. She has degraded substantially in terms of her mental health and I think she needs to be in an institution at this point. I understand why she is the way she is, however, and a large part of it was due to bad parenting. 

@Lotsgoingon Some great points, thank you. I will most certainly look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. You are correct, I am definitely my worst and harshest critic and it is those voices, before/during/after the interaction that make the interaction very difficult to experience. I do recognize that those voices were birthed from what my sister was telling me many years ago, I'm just sad that I haven't been able to unwire them after all this time. I'm okay with being nervous, I just need to get this issue resolved and get on with my life.

[Wiseman2]

It seems like you handled it well despite being too forward.  With  "no worries, I understand". It's wasn't really a rejection per se, just awkward as she said I don't even know you. Try to build some rapport though small talk before lunging in. 

[Lotsgoingon]

I do recognize that those voices were birthed from what my sister was telling me many years ago, I'm just sad that I haven't been able to unwire them after all this time.

That's because your sister's nastiness hit deep. We can get borderline trauma from school mates mocking us. And they are at a distance. This is your sister. Growing up with her was far more devastating than getting teased by classmates. 

And .,.. you have done well in your life. There's just this final piece that comes up with with some women. You have gone out into the world and met people and gotten involved in activities and so on. Huge accomplishment. Now take on this final little piece. It's a tricky insidious poison (from inside your family) that you need the help of a professional to neutralize and expunge. 

BTW: you could over time heal from this wound on your own. It's just going to take A LOT more time--as in could take an extra decade or two or three or four---than if you go for some professional help. 

[seamusharper]

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I do recognize that those voices were birthed from what my sister was telling me many years ago, I'm just sad that I haven't been able to unwire them after all this time.

That's because your sister's nastiness hit deep. We can get borderline trauma from school mates mocking us. And they are at a distance. This is your sister. Growing up with her was far more devastating than getting teased by classmates. 

And .,.. you have done well in your life. There's just this final piece that comes up with with some women. You have gone out into the world and met people and gotten involved in activities and so on. Huge accomplishment. Now take on this final little piece. It's a tricky insidious poison (from inside your family) that you need the help of a professional to neutralize and expunge. 

BTW: you could over time heal from this wound on your own. It's just going to take A LOT more time--as in could take an extra decade or two or three or four---than if you go for some professional help. 

You are correct indeed.

That's part of what is so frustrating. I've got so much going for me and I just can't seem to get past this final part which is agonizing. But as you've eluded to, it can take a very long time to try to get through this myself (which I have tried and failed at). I'll get to work on finding a professional to help me with this. 

[mark clemson]

I think feeling nervous when you see someone you're genuinely attracted to isn't limited to "damaged" people - I believe it happens to many folks. Learning to get past it and act confidently even though you feel somewhat nervous is what will get you there.

Suggestions have been made in posts above that I think are good ones. A bit that might help in addition is remembering that nothing's been established at the outset anyhow. So, try not to think of the attractive woman as a potential romantic partner - at the start she is just another person, and so can be treated "casually" since there's nothing hinging on your interactions (yet) anyhow. The casual conversation is a good starting point, and helps you both start to feel less nervous. Easier said than done I suppose, but I think it might help.

Edited February 18 by mark clemson

[basil67]

A part of the equation here is that you're trying to attract women who get hit on every time they go out.  Can you imagine how exhausting it is for them to not be able to walk around without being objectified?   As a result, the women quickly become adept at shutting men down without giving a second thought.  My daughter's dear friend is one of these women.  She's a lovely woman, but completely worn out by the attention her looks bring.  It's about self protection.

My message is that their quick shutdown is not about you - so don't take it personally.   It's actually about the unrelenting attention they've received before you.   

If you want to protect yourself, stick to women who you've already built a rapport with and who are already flirting with you.  Then you know you've got a good chance of a Yes

[seamusharper]

@mark clemson You bring up some good points. I'm okay with being nervous and having to muster the courage to get through that nervousness. I think, as you eluded to, I'm wanting to get something romantically out of these women AND they're attractive and so it all goes downhill from there since not only am I trying to get validation from them but also an outcome. I know this is wrong, and I can work on getting away from wanting an outcome, but I still struggle with the negative voices.

@basil67 I definitely made a huge mistake approaching this woman without having built up any rapport. I honestly don't know what I was thinking and I usually would have tried to establish something beforehand. Regarding not taking it personally, I understand that, it's just hard not to when I've got the voices in my head giving me all the personal reasons as to why it went wrong.

[SurfCity]

20 hours ago, seamusharper said:

Honestly, it was the friend's comment that bothered me. Clearly something about my approach made the friend feel like it was necessary to reinforce the rejection which I've never had happened.

I think it was the waiting around. You probably were looking/glancing at her even if you didn't realize it. When you add that to the odd/awkward way that you spoke to her, her friend felt the need to help her out. Don't take it personally, all they had to judge you on is a 30 second interaction and you lingering around. And actually, you agree with them that the way that you asked her and hanging around afterward wasn't ideal, so you shouldn't feel bothered that they responded that way because...you agree. Cut yourself some slack and try not to make a big deal out of it. Maybe practice some conversation starters.

[seamusharper]

42 minutes ago, SurfCity said:

I think it was the waiting around. You probably were looking/glancing at her even if you didn't realize it. When you add that to the odd/awkward way that you spoke to her, her friend felt the need to help her out. Don't take it personally, all they had to judge you on is a 30 second interaction and you lingering around. And actually, you agree with them that the way that you asked her and hanging around afterward wasn't ideal, so you shouldn't feel bothered that they responded that way because...you agree. Cut yourself some slack and try not to make a big deal out of it. Maybe practice some conversation starters.

That's what my gut is telling me.

Honestly, if this was just two women at a bar or somewhere random, I wouldn't mind so much but these are women at a barn that I frequent. Odds are that I'll probably see them again, and if I came off that awkward, they most certainly have told others about it which effectively reduces my chances with any of the other women there. It's basically a rejection that keeps on haunting you and that is hard to move away from and not take personally. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, seamusharper said:

 I definitely made a huge mistake approaching this woman without having built up any rapport. I honestly don't know what I was thinking and I usually would have tried to establish something beforehand. Regarding not taking it personally, I understand that, it's just hard not to when I've got the voices in my head giving me all the personal reasons as to why it went wrong.

The point of what I wrote is that she would likely get hit on so often that there's a very good chance she's very practiced at knocking most guys back. Tell the voices in your head that even with a bit of rapport, the odds are still stacked against most men who try simply because of the sheer numbers of men she'd need to bat away.

Something else to consider - the beautiful woman do know that they are being objectified by strangers/virtual strangers who ask them out.  They know that men are interested not because of who she is, but what she looks like.  

[seamusharper]

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The point of what I wrote is that she would likely get hit on so often that there's a very good chance she's very practiced at knocking most guys back. Tell the voices in your head that even with a bit of rapport, the odds are still stacked against most men who try simply because of the sheer numbers of men she'd need to bat away.

Something else to consider - the beautiful woman do know that they are being objectified by strangers/virtual strangers who ask them out.  They know that men are interested not because of who she is, but what she looks like.  

I get that but honestly, it doesn't help that much in terms of my issue. To me, it's just one of MANY attractive women that I have been rejected by. It doesn't get any easier. I wish it did; if I didn't experience what I did with my family, I don't mind "failure", it's just another stepping stone on the way to eventually getting something down.

But this is different precisely because of what I went through because each rejection only reinforces what I was told many years ago. It's just another attractive woman who clearly didn't find me attractive enough (attractive being anything it might be, physical or otherwise). 

[Mrin]

Hi OP. Take a look at this video. It is from T.D. Jakes and addresses your question infinitely better than I could. 

 

[Wiseman2]

Exactly. Please try to focus on the here and now including smoother social skills as far as building rapport with women by being friendly approachable and easy to be around .

It's great you're in therapy but please keep in mind, you can only change the future, not the past. Please try to let go if carrying around a mountain of hurt and pain.  It seems to be weighing you down and interfering with who you are today. 

 

[seamusharper]

@Mrin That was a great video, thank you for sharing 

@Wiseman2 I will definitely work on letting go as it is a mountainous burden as you've eluded to. And I will get back out there socially; these past several months have been crazy in terms of work and many other things I've had going on so I've been fairly closed off and this was the first woman I've approached in a long time.